Scott, shut the fuck up. Just because people have a different but valid opinions versus your opinion doesn't make them stupid. Then Jeremy and myself are stupid for sleeving our Dominion cards. Well next time don't play Dominion with us if it really fucking matters to you that much.
You don't think sleeving your cards is necessary, other people do. No one is wrong. Get over it.
Well, there you go. Ultimately, you don't prefer sleeves because you don't care about the condition that you play your cards in. Some people do care, so they have a valid reason to use sleeves.
They are stupid for caring. Do you care if your monpoly money gets bent? Do you care if your d20 gets scratched? It's gaming equipment, not a priceless work of art.
It maybe isn't priceless art, but it could still have significant monetary value. There are tons of crazy stories about what out of print CCG cards go for, especially if they were particularly rare to begin with. Never mind that if you happen to have the 10-year-old out of print "Sacred Card of Ultimate Power" that pretty much trumps anything else available now, you damned well are gonna want to protect it so that it lasts as long as possible for you to use against unsuspecting foes.
It maybe isn't priceless art, but it could still have significant monetary value. There are tons of crazy stories about what out of print CCG cards go for, especially if they were particularly rare to begin with. Never mind that if you happen to have the 10-year-old out of print "Sacred Card of Ultimate Power" that pretty much trumps anything else available now, you damned well are gonna want to protect it so that it lasts as long as possible for you to use against unsuspecting foes.
If you are protecting the cards because they are, or will be, worth money, then I must assume you plan to sell them at some point. If you only plan to use them, and never sell them, then it doesn't matter how much they are worth. If they are currently worth money, sell them! Use that money to get more other games. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
So let's say, for example, a particular Dominion card is worth money. I don't care because I only want to play with it, no mater how much money it's worth. So no sleeves necessary. If you do care, sell them! Oh, but you want to keep playing with them also? Well, since you are using sleeves just get some coppers and use a sharpie to write on them what card they are replacing. Now you can play without actually having the card. Oh, but now you don't have any valuable cards anymore since you sold them all. What is the point of protecting them with sleeves and degrading your play experience?
We have two scratching posts that they cats constantly use. Rorschach is the only one that likes to fuck with toilet paper and paper towels.
Solo cup full of water balanced on top of paper towel roll. You'll only lose a few rolls before he learns his lesson.
We've done countless things. We leave the bathroom doors open now because if they are kept closed, he will paw on the door. We really just need to keep them closed and put clear double stick tape on the doors to deter him from pawing on the doors, but we fear it might peel off the wallpaper on the doors because they are the cheap doors.
Our cat rarely learns lessons, and Jeremy just reminded me tried the under method and we ended up with an attacked roll of toilet paper full of holes.
That cat...He is so lucky I love him so much and his constant cuddling with me makes up for it.
I was just going to comment on the fact that after listening to the show I went to the Yomi site and upon finding out the art on the cards was made by genzoman (or, at least, some of it, I just had to buy the game. I love that guys style and the game sounded awesome (and it is, I found after playing).
But the discussion on card sleeves is too good. So I just had to ad this: I hate the things but find myself using them anyway, for some reason I want to protect my worthless cards. I blame peer pressure for this.
Also, I got the PDF version of the game (Living in Mexico, I really didn't want to risk the $100 box getting "lost" in transportation ¬¬) I gotta say, they look really great, and knowing the little I know about graphic design and printing allowed me to have my printed cards look quite nice. Also, that way I can have more than one deck for each character if necessary (Panda VS Panda o_O)
So I'm suprised I'm the first one to post this link, but you can play Yomi Online for free here: www.fantasystrike.com/dev. Also you can find rules here, and pictures of every card in every deck right here. This was invaluable while I was learning the game, and I still refer to it when playing online sometimes so I can remember exactly how fast my opponents ace is...
The Yomi Online client is fully rules enforcing and even has an ELO rating system to keep track of your rank against other players. It uses a "quick match" system to try to match you up against people of equal skill, and I can usually find a game within 1 minute of hitting the button during most of the day.
Some of the points brought up on the show:
Re: Playing mats - The life counters are quite nice to have, but could be replaced with 2d10 of course. The real advantage is in picking up cards. Picking up flat cards on a flat hard surface can be frustrating and damaging to the card. Picking the card up off a mouse pad (which is what these are) is much easier/less damaging because you can push down on one side lightly and the other side lifts up. I damaged cards in some of my games right after opening them cause I picked them off a hard surface a bit too violently.
Re: Character Balance - The most recent tier list is available here. For those unfamilier, matchups in a fighting game will be described in terms of how many games out of 10 each character will win if you assume evenly skilled players. So a 7-3 matchup means that the favored character is likely to win 70% of the time and the disfavored character is likely to win 30% of the time between equally skilled players.
The worst posible matchup is Lum vs. Rook at 7-3 in lum's favor. That's the only 7-3 matchup in the whole set of 10 characters though, which is a pretty good feat considering most fighting games have multiple 7-3s and even some 8-2s.
Also note the "sum" for each of the characters on the right. This in part represents how tournament viable the characters are. The "Sum" column is what you get if you treat all matchups that are >5 as being positive and all matchups as <5 as being negative and add them together. So Jaina has matchups of 4.5, 5, 4, 5, 5.5, 5.5, 5.5, 5, 6. This equates to -.5, 0, -1, 0, .5, .5, .5, 0, 1 for a total of +1. Notice that the only real problam character at this point is grave who has no negative matchups and a few slightly advantageous matchups. Grave is considered to be the "most" tournament viable character, but he is in no way an instant-win character. He will simply never be in a "bad" matchup, but he will also rarely be in a really good matchup.
Aside from Grave, the rest of the spread is very close, and I have to say I'm pretty impressed with the balance of the characters. I've played about 40-50 games so far, between the online system and the physical version. It's fun to get to know another player as you learn the game and try to psyche them out and lay false patterns for them to trip up on.
P.S. You were right, It was originally being designed for the Street Fighter Licence but Sirlin couldn't get the licence. I know Grave and Jaina used to be Ken and Ryu, but can't remember which one was which...
Also: I just got to the part where you were speculating on a multiplayer tag-team version. Some people have already made variants for this, my favorite is this one but this one also seems pretty well thought out.
If you are protecting the cards because they are, or will be, worth money, then I must assume you plan to sell them at some point. If you only plan to use them, and never sell them, then it doesn't matter how much they are worth. If they are currently worth money, sell them! Use that money to get more other games. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
So let's say, for example, a particular Dominion card is worth money. I don't care because I only want to play with it, no mater how much money it's worth. So no sleeves necessary. If you do care, sell them! Oh, but you want to keep playing with them also? Well, since you are using sleeves just get some coppers and use a sharpie to write on them what card they are replacing. Now you can play without actually having the card. Oh, but now you don't have any valuable cards anymore since you sold them all. What is the point of protecting them with sleeves and degrading your play experience?
FYI, at PAX we busted out our sleeved Dominion set. Before we get started I sarcastically said to Scott, "Scott, you can't play with this sleeved deck because it would degrade your playing experience."
He still played, and I think won that round and was happy.
So yeah, more than likely Scott will reply, "Even though sleeved deck sucks, I still came on top. BLAH BLAH BLAH."
Proper shuffling is out of the question. Sleeved cards are usually shuffled by cutting the deck in half and then grinding the two together. There's a proper technique to fanning out the two halves of the deck to get them to mix together smoothly, though. A technique I'm not very good at (which is part of why I don't sleeve). Most amateurs trying to shuffle sleeves like this will split them along the edge.
Edit: Ro-ninja'd cause I'm reading 5 threads at once
Oh the print and play version. Makes sense now. I suppose that would work just fine if you wanted a set on the cheap. I would usually say just pony up the $ for the real thing but a full Yomi set is $100! No shame in not wanting to spend that.
Comments
You don't think sleeving your cards is necessary, other people do. No one is wrong. Get over it.
So let's say, for example, a particular Dominion card is worth money. I don't care because I only want to play with it, no mater how much money it's worth. So no sleeves necessary. If you do care, sell them! Oh, but you want to keep playing with them also? Well, since you are using sleeves just get some coppers and use a sharpie to write on them what card they are replacing. Now you can play without actually having the card. Oh, but now you don't have any valuable cards anymore since you sold them all. What is the point of protecting them with sleeves and degrading your play experience?
As for sleeves, go for em, sure proxy cards can be used to use Scott's example however you often get looks of "dude what the hell" if you use them.
Finally if you are concerned about the cards, protect them, if not then don't. Can we all just get along?
Our cat rarely learns lessons, and Jeremy just reminded me tried the under method and we ended up with an attacked roll of toilet paper full of holes.
That cat...He is so lucky I love him so much and his constant cuddling with me makes up for it.
But the discussion on card sleeves is too good. So I just had to ad this: I hate the things but find myself using them anyway, for some reason I want to protect my worthless cards. I blame peer pressure for this.
Also, I got the PDF version of the game (Living in Mexico, I really didn't want to risk the $100 box getting "lost" in transportation ¬¬) I gotta say, they look really great, and knowing the little I know about graphic design and printing allowed me to have my printed cards look quite nice. Also, that way I can have more than one deck for each character if necessary (Panda VS Panda o_O)
The Yomi Online client is fully rules enforcing and even has an ELO rating system to keep track of your rank against other players. It uses a "quick match" system to try to match you up against people of equal skill, and I can usually find a game within 1 minute of hitting the button during most of the day.
Some of the points brought up on the show:
Re: Playing mats - The life counters are quite nice to have, but could be replaced with 2d10 of course. The real advantage is in picking up cards. Picking up flat cards on a flat hard surface can be frustrating and damaging to the card. Picking the card up off a mouse pad (which is what these are) is much easier/less damaging because you can push down on one side lightly and the other side lifts up. I damaged cards in some of my games right after opening them cause I picked them off a hard surface a bit too violently.
Re: Character Balance - The most recent tier list is available here. For those unfamilier, matchups in a fighting game will be described in terms of how many games out of 10 each character will win if you assume evenly skilled players. So a 7-3 matchup means that the favored character is likely to win 70% of the time and the disfavored character is likely to win 30% of the time between equally skilled players.
The worst posible matchup is Lum vs. Rook at 7-3 in lum's favor. That's the only 7-3 matchup in the whole set of 10 characters though, which is a pretty good feat considering most fighting games have multiple 7-3s and even some 8-2s.
Also note the "sum" for each of the characters on the right. This in part represents how tournament viable the characters are. The "Sum" column is what you get if you treat all matchups that are >5 as being positive and all matchups as <5 as being negative and add them together. So Jaina has matchups of 4.5, 5, 4, 5, 5.5, 5.5, 5.5, 5, 6. This equates to -.5, 0, -1, 0, .5, .5, .5, 0, 1 for a total of +1. Notice that the only real problam character at this point is grave who has no negative matchups and a few slightly advantageous matchups. Grave is considered to be the "most" tournament viable character, but he is in no way an instant-win character. He will simply never be in a "bad" matchup, but he will also rarely be in a really good matchup.
Aside from Grave, the rest of the spread is very close, and I have to say I'm pretty impressed with the balance of the characters. I've played about 40-50 games so far, between the online system and the physical version. It's fun to get to know another player as you learn the game and try to psyche them out and lay false patterns for them to trip up on.
tl;dr - the <a href="http://www.fantasystrike.com/dev/">online version is free and awesome, and we need players
P.S. You were right, It was originally being designed for the Street Fighter Licence but Sirlin couldn't get the licence. I know Grave and Jaina used to be Ken and Ryu, but can't remember which one was which...
He still played, and I think won that round and was happy.
So yeah, more than likely Scott will reply, "Even though sleeved deck sucks, I still came on top. BLAH BLAH BLAH."
Learn to adapt.
Edit: Ro-ninja'd cause I'm reading 5 threads at once
I mean if I was expecting high quality, I'd buy the proper thing, aye?