I think that "being prepared" becomes "ritually traumatizing our children" when you have bi-annual lockdown drills for kindergarteners in which they're instructed to hide in a dark classroom with the door locked because "bad men" are in the hallway. It's far worse than duck and cover ever was, which was also stupid and basically propaganda.
Yes, and it isn't going to help anyway. Okay, you've physically locked yourself and a group of 30 scared kids in with a gunman, what now?
Hope you aren't randomly selected for death, what else can you do in that situation?
I think that "being prepared" becomes "ritually traumatizing our children" when you have bi-annual lockdown drills for kindergarteners in which they're instructed to hide in a dark classroom with the door locked because "bad men" are in the hallway. It's far worse than duck and cover ever was, which was also stupid and basically propaganda.
Yes, and it isn't going to help anyway. Okay, you've physically locked yourself and a group of 30 scared kids in with a gunman, what now?
Hope you aren't randomly selected for death, what else can you do in that situation?
If you're on the ground floor, jump out a window and run for the nearest building that isn't the school. doesnt work for a mass evacuation of course, but better than trying to pretend you're not there.
The Paris attackers specifically sought individual cartoonists by name and executed them. They murdered individual artists because they were offended by their art, in the middle of Paris, with AK-47s in broad daylight.
Goddammit Islam, stop making it hard to defend you.
Right?
I mean, I hold deep disdain for religion as an idea, regardless of the particular flavor. But at the same time, I don't want to ever in any way be lumped in with the Christians who hate Islam because it's the "wrong" religion.
I think we can make a fairly verifiable statement: all religions do bad shit, but Islam on the whole seems to do more bad shit right now than the others.
That infographic showing that Sunni Muslim extremists were responsible for 75% of terror-related deaths in 2011 is really quite profound. You can't deny that there's something up at that level of association.
I mean, yes, violence begets violence - but you'd think the culture would stop it at some point. There must be some irrational driver behind it.
When I was a kid I had a good friend who belonged to a very strict Greek orthodox family that was 100% against any graven images. I remember giving him a nicely painted miniature as a gift that looked like his DnD character and he gave it back to me a few days later because it counted as a graven image or idol and he wasn't allowed to have it in the house.
Key point is that his family didn't go batshit crazy and come after me as some kind of blasphemous heretic over it. They simply pointed out that such a thing was not allowed due to their religion and that was it.
Why is this so hard for Islam? Why such intolerance? What is so terrible about an artist rendering of a historical figure that death is the penalty?
As for the incident in Paris... Damn I would hate to be that woman that let them in the building.
Why is this so hard for Islam? Why such intolerance? What is so terrible about an artist rendering of a historical figure that death is the penalty?
Christianity had basically the same rules during the Orthodoxy days in Rome. Ever hear of the Iconoclasts? People died. Villages burned. Riots in the streets. All over whether or not it was OK to have pictures of saints (or even people in general).
It's a confluence of issues. Radical Islam's roots come from a combination of anti-colonialist reactionism, post-colonial internecine tribal conflict, Islamic schism, corrupt governments, local destabilization.... The list goes on and on.
Christianity grew out of that. Catholicism is practically straight up idol worship!
Yup, read that she had her kid with her. Still, for the rest of her life she will have to shoulder the guilt that she traded two lives for twelve AND she was the one who ended up being the weak link in their heightened security system.
I think it's wrong to associate Islamic terrorists with Islam. A very small subset of the Islamic population is twisting scripture into an excuse for acting on a very real historical anger that has only been lovingly nurtured by western nations and their own crazy conservative fantasies. Most people, regardless of religion, race, or creed, simply want to live in peace and harmony.
I'd posit that situations which are major permitters of violence, e.g. governmental and societal instability combined with a history of violence, happen to be present mostly in areas with significant Muslim populations, and where there is or recently was religious persecution. Religion is one of the easier ways to justify violence, and so most of the religiously-justified violence that currently exists is done by and to Muslims in those areas.
This has the side effect of inspiring/emboldening extremist Muslims outside of unstable areas to commit copycat attacks, at least more so than other religions. But don't forget that in earlier decades terrorist-like attacks were largely performed by anarchist and nationalist groups, so it's not just religion we should be worried about. Violence sucks.
I think it's wrong to associate Islamic terrorists with Islam. A very small subset of the Islamic population is twisting scripture into an excuse for acting on a very real historical anger that has only been lovingly nurtured by western nations and their own crazy conservative fantasies. Most people, regardless of religion, race, or creed, simply want to live in peace and harmony.
A literal reading is difficult due to all the stuff that contradicts the other stuff. It's a reading, to be certain, but not one that most people subscribe to.
Within a considerable radius from the surface of the nuclear fireball, 0–3 kilometers [...] ducking and covering would offer negligible protection against the intense heat, blast and prompt ionizing radiation following a nuclear explosion. Beyond that range, however, many lives would be saved by following the simple advice, especially since at that range the main hazard is not from ionizing radiation but from blast injuries and sustaining thermal flash burns to unprotected skin.
Yes, I think everyone knew duck and cover was bullshit if you were anywhere near the actual nuke. But it's like getting into a triangle of life in an earthquake, trying not to tense up before an auto collision, putting your head to your knees in a falling airplane, hitting the deck if you come under fire, or a number of other 'pre-crash' moves: it puts you in the best position you could reasonably get to from where you were; and should you not be directly incinerated/crushed/impaled/shot/etc from the incident, then you're going to be somewhat better off than if you just said "fuck it" and stood there like a boss.
The as-practiced lockdown drill is not the best of all possible options, but for children who have to be herded around and who are likely to hurt themselves or get lost if they are let loose to 'run away' it is probably the only one that can reasonably be chosen by the schools to train for. Anything more complex puts a big onus on the schools to train and maybe opens them up to liability. Anything less because such a drill is useless, would open them up to liability. It's apparent that its the best half-measure anyone can come up with that isn't expensive (bulletproof blankets, reinforced security doors, full time paramilitary-style security details) ridiculous (see previous), terribly disruptive, or complex, and keeps kids accounted for.
The fact that it is useless in a situation with room-to-room spree shooting like terrorists or spree-killers are want to do, is not really the point. The fact that it perhaps is more dangerous than just saying 'run for the hills' is a result of demands that schools have more than that.
But few parents seem to want guards with AR-15s patrolling their school. And no-one seems to want to deal with making a school a fortress. So you just have to accept that tiny tiny chance that something happens to the kids there, but more likely they will die some other tragic, but more common, way. Or more likely still they survive to adulthood.
As for the French attack, it's infuriating in many ways. But the illustrator lady can't really be held to blame: if she was the weak link in a security system it was a shit security system. Unless she was trained and hired to be a sort of sentry against armed threats, she should be expected to do no less than what she did. Anyone with similar background and circumstances would be expected to react per the same script. So ultimately she has to deal with being involved and the survivor's guilt or what-have-you but if I entrust keys to my bank with a mom, her kid, and a lolipop, then millions of pounds of steel and concrete couldn't protect the contents from someone with a gun and the willingness to threaten its use.
If she was trained and armed to react and did not, then it would be different. But again, even if they sacrificed themselves in the line of duty as the armed guards did (whether or not they had any opportunity to make a decision on the matter) would it have prevented the soldiers from entering? IF they had a plan to get in and do all that, I doubt being stopped by someone at the door would send them home.
I'm starting to go into full anti-theist mode. Fuck all of this primitive superstitious nonsense. Stop fucking killing people because of fucking fairytales. That does not belong in anything resembling civilization.
I'm starting to go into full anti-theist mode. Fuck all of this primitive superstitious nonsense. Stop fucking killing people because of fucking fairytales. That does not belong in anything resembling civilization.
I believe that analyzing this situation requires a sensitive, balanced approach. We have to take everyone's feelings into account, and we must be sure to give alternative worldviews the respect they deserve. I feel this could be best summed up in this song:
I'm starting to go into full anti-theist mode. Fuck all of this primitive superstitious nonsense. Stop fucking killing people because of fucking fairytales. That does not belong in anything resembling civilization.
The fairytales are just an excuse. Pretty much every religion that has been used as an excuse for murder and terror actually teaches peace if you fucking read their holy book. If it wasn't religion that they claimed, they'd find another reason.
Comments
And they escaped.
I mean, I hold deep disdain for religion as an idea, regardless of the particular flavor. But at the same time, I don't want to ever in any way be lumped in with the Christians who hate Islam because it's the "wrong" religion.
They're all the wrong religion...
That infographic showing that Sunni Muslim extremists were responsible for 75% of terror-related deaths in 2011 is really quite profound. You can't deny that there's something up at that level of association.
I mean, yes, violence begets violence - but you'd think the culture would stop it at some point. There must be some irrational driver behind it.
Key point is that his family didn't go batshit crazy and come after me as some kind of blasphemous heretic over it. They simply pointed out that such a thing was not allowed due to their religion and that was it.
Why is this so hard for Islam? Why such intolerance? What is so terrible about an artist rendering of a historical figure that death is the penalty?
As for the incident in Paris... Damn I would hate to be that woman that let them in the building.
It's a confluence of issues. Radical Islam's roots come from a combination of anti-colonialist reactionism, post-colonial internecine tribal conflict, Islamic schism, corrupt governments, local destabilization.... The list goes on and on.
Yup, read that she had her kid with her. Still, for the rest of her life she will have to shoulder the guilt that she traded two lives for twelve AND she was the one who ended up being the weak link in their heightened security system.
Christians commit acts of terror defending their ridiculous religious sensibilities too.
Christian militias wreak havoc and murder civilians.
It's not really fair to say that Christianity "grew out of that." The situation is far more complex.
When these attacks happen in the name of Islam, it would be ignorant to blame Islam or think that it requires defending.
Like when you hear of some killing and video games are to blame.
The problem in that case, is from retaliation from ignorant people who don't understand what video games are.
Hate and ignorance does not need to be perpetuated, it does need to be identified.
What I'm more surprised by is, how was all this weaponry able to get into the city?
How with all the surveillance available were they able to flee?
This murder is justified.
But you said murder is wrong.
I'm right, you're wrong!
This has the side effect of inspiring/emboldening extremist Muslims outside of unstable areas to commit copycat attacks, at least more so than other religions. But don't forget that in earlier decades terrorist-like attacks were largely performed by anarchist and nationalist groups, so it's not just religion we should be worried about.
Violence sucks.
Yes, I think everyone knew duck and cover was bullshit if you were anywhere near the actual nuke. But it's like getting into a triangle of life in an earthquake, trying not to tense up before an auto collision, putting your head to your knees in a falling airplane, hitting the deck if you come under fire, or a number of other 'pre-crash' moves: it puts you in the best position you could reasonably get to from where you were; and should you not be directly incinerated/crushed/impaled/shot/etc from the incident, then you're going to be somewhat better off than if you just said "fuck it" and stood there like a boss.
The as-practiced lockdown drill is not the best of all possible options, but for children who have to be herded around and who are likely to hurt themselves or get lost if they are let loose to 'run away' it is probably the only one that can reasonably be chosen by the schools to train for. Anything more complex puts a big onus on the schools to train and maybe opens them up to liability. Anything less because such a drill is useless, would open them up to liability. It's apparent that its the best half-measure anyone can come up with that isn't expensive (bulletproof blankets, reinforced security doors, full time paramilitary-style security details) ridiculous (see previous), terribly disruptive, or complex, and keeps kids accounted for.
The fact that it is useless in a situation with room-to-room spree shooting like terrorists or spree-killers are want to do, is not really the point. The fact that it perhaps is more dangerous than just saying 'run for the hills' is a result of demands that schools have more than that.
But few parents seem to want guards with AR-15s patrolling their school. And no-one seems to want to deal with making a school a fortress. So you just have to accept that tiny tiny chance that something happens to the kids there, but more likely they will die some other tragic, but more common, way. Or more likely still they survive to adulthood.
As for the French attack, it's infuriating in many ways. But the illustrator lady can't really be held to blame: if she was the weak link in a security system it was a shit security system. Unless she was trained and hired to be a sort of sentry against armed threats, she should be expected to do no less than what she did. Anyone with similar background and circumstances would be expected to react per the same script. So ultimately she has to deal with being involved and the survivor's guilt or what-have-you but if I entrust keys to my bank with a mom, her kid, and a lolipop, then millions of pounds of steel and concrete couldn't protect the contents from someone with a gun and the willingness to threaten its use.
If she was trained and armed to react and did not, then it would be different. But again, even if they sacrificed themselves in the line of duty as the armed guards did (whether or not they had any opportunity to make a decision on the matter) would it have prevented the soldiers from entering? IF they had a plan to get in and do all that, I doubt being stopped by someone at the door would send them home.
It appears, based on initial reports, that the killers from before are being aided by their friends.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/charlie-hebdo-attack-suspects-dead-hostage-safe-french/story?id=28105639