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GeekNights Thursday - All our Jobs

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  • If you live in some small number of US cities, your job/career opportunities grow as you live there longer.

    In the rest of the country, they shrink.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-why-some-cities-get-good-jobs-20160215-story.html
  • So this is a question for Rym, specifically. Unless anyone else has worked at IBM, in which case, it's for you too. If you've not worked there, cool, you can answer too.

    I have a goal, one I'm sure you can empathize with, it's to own and live in property in NY. If I wanted to rent I could move tomorrow.

    I recently got basically invited to apply for a job by some recruiter at IBM, (yaay!), took a look at the job, it sucks (boo!), and worse still, it's either in Armonk, NY(booo!) or in Southbury, CT (wtf guys!). So both of those are kinda in the wrong direction, I wanna be going towards the city not away from it.

    If it pays more than what I make that's a step towards the city, more in the nest egg. The ultimate question is should I value getting IBM on my resume in terms of getting a different better job in the city. (If I work in the city renting becomes less of a problem because it's just economical with the savings in train tickets and cars to the train.)

    Second question is what's it like to work for IBM (job itself is horrid dev work, moving tax data from legacy systems into some new vendor software)?

    So yeah, in short. Want data to assist in assessing how much I should want this job that has a bunch of red flags on it.
  • To own property in NY is easy. There are plenty of cheap houses to buy in this enormous state.

    To own property in NYC you will need to be a millionaire. You will not get that kind of money from a job working at a corporation. Even if you get paid six figures and live very frugally, you will have a very hard time saving up a million dollars. You will need a significant side hustle.
  • edited November 2016
    Apreche said:

    To own property in NY is easy. There are plenty of cheap houses to buy in this enormous state.

    To own property in NYC you will need to be a millionaire. You will not get that kind of money from a job working at a corporation. Even if you get paid six figures and live very frugally, you will have a very hard time saving up a million dollars. You will need a significant side hustle.

    Hold up, are you defining NYC as Manhattan? If not, then I apparently need examine the silver spoon that I found in my mouth. I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of 100% sure there exists a brownstone in queens owned entirely by my ilk.

    Also your answer makes me realize I've not stated my goal very well. To clarify, the goal is to live in NYC full stop. However I don't like the idea of renting unless it makes economic sense. It'll only make economic sense if I work there and make some of it back in savings not having to take the train or own a car.

    Does the IBM on my resume make New York more or less likely to recruit/hire me and if more is it worth it to work there for years of my prime 20s?
    Post edited by Naoza on
  • Naoza said:

    Apreche said:

    To own property in NY is easy. There are plenty of cheap houses to buy in this enormous state.

    To own property in NYC you will need to be a millionaire. You will not get that kind of money from a job working at a corporation. Even if you get paid six figures and live very frugally, you will have a very hard time saving up a million dollars. You will need a significant side hustle.

    Hold up, are you defining NYC as Manhattan? If not, then I apparently need examine the silver spoon that I found in my mouth. I'm somewhere in the neighborhood of 100% sure there exists a brownstone in queens owned entirely by my ilk.

    Also your answer makes me realize I've not stated my goal very well. To clarify, the goal is to live in NYC full stop. However I don't like the idea of renting unless it makes economic sense. It'll only make economic sense if I work there and make some of it back in savings not having to take the train or own a car.

    Does the IBM on my resume make New York more or less likely to recruit/hire me and if more is it worth it to work there for years of my prime 20s?
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/buy-rent-calculator.html?_r=0

    Here's a calculator. According to that, my rent makes a ton of sense, by a large margin of hundreds of dollars per month.

    In my neighborhood in Queens, the most basic luxury condos are $700K minimum. If you go far far away in Queens somewhere way East it doesn't really get better. In some cases it gets much worse (Forest Hills). Anywhere that has significantly lower prices is somewhere the subway doesn't touch. That means it's a place where you have to have a car. Maybe the Bronx or SI are options?

    If you are capable of getting a job at IBM, you are capable of getting a job in NYC. It's not like NYC companies have some higher standards or some shit. Having more work experience obviously makes getting new jobs easier anywhere. More experienced people are more desirable in general. But there are tons of tech places in NYC hiring like crazy all the time, even when the economy is bad. Any one of them will pay you enough that you can afford NYC rent.
  • IBM is so vast that it's very hard to give good advice on that front. It got me my next two jobs, but that was before I really had a CV. It also was a "weird" job inside of IBM. I wasn't Global Services: I was a tiny separate wing with a broad mandate and small team. I had a lot of authority and responsibility despite starting literally as an intern/coop. YMMV
  • Your calculator doesn't take into account the value of having the property as an asset. (Personal opinion to follow) Renting to me feels like throwing money away, owning feels like investing. You get to live in a place either way. Being shown a calculator about how much the cost evens out based on how long you plan to live there (forever unless I say otherwise, and if I did move I'd rather rent it out) doesn't really help me come to terms with what I perceive, agree or disagree, as fiscally irresponsible.

    That said, I feel like I have enough info. I'm not gonna treat the IBM option any different than any other job. If they want me, pay me enough to leave.
  • edited November 2016
    I mean, yes, renting does not build equity. Owning is great for that, and it's often the first step in really building a basis for wealth.

    Owning a house and land isn't really a money-growing investment on its own - it's more like money preservation. As you say, you gotta pay to live somewhere, and owning a house allows you to recoup some of that cost of living.

    "Some" is very important, though. When you rent, your landlord takes care of a lot of things that you don't have to. You won't quite grasp that until suddenly everything in the house is your problem.

    Own property with trees? You have to think about how to manage those trees. If one is poised to fall, you have to deal with it.

    Small plumbing issue? Hire someone, or learn how to do it.

    Do you know how much it costs to redo a driveway? How about a new roof? Those are your problems now.

    Got a lawn? How much do you like mowing? Here's a hint - you don't.

    So yeah, sure, you will recoup the money you would've otherwise spent in rent, and you'll have a real asset on your balance sheet - but you have to spend money to maintain that value, and so the net might not be as much as you think.

    What that asset will gave you later is leverage, which can be totally worth it - but really, if you want property as an investment, you'll look at a property you can rent to someone else. A house by itself is a fancy toy that someone will buy from you later, but in the intervening time you've spent a lot more to live there.

    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • Naoza said:

    Your calculator doesn't take into account the value of having the property as an asset. (Personal opinion to follow) Renting to me feels like throwing money away, owning feels like investing. You get to live in a place either way. Being shown a calculator about how much the cost evens out based on how long you plan to live there (forever unless I say otherwise, and if I did move I'd rather rent it out) doesn't really help me come to terms with what I perceive, agree or disagree, as fiscally irresponsible.

    Don't let strict adherence to principles guide you towards making a bad decision. Sometimes renting makes more sense economically, and sometimes it doesn't. In your quest to avoid feeling like you are throwing money away, you could actually end up doing just that.

    Look at all the people who refuse to pay for Adobe Creative Cloud because they are opposed, in principle, to the subscription model. In reality, the previous model you would have to pay hundreds per year to have just Photoshop and keep it always up to date. Now for $600 a year you get the Master Suite of every single tool, plus additional benefits, always up to date, forever.

    Facts, not feelings, should be your guide.
  • I mean, yes, renting does not build equity. Owning is great for that, and it's often the first step in really building a basis for wealth.

    Owning a house and land isn't really a money-growing investment on its own - it's more like money preservation. As you say, you gotta pay to live somewhere, and owning a house allows you to recoup some of that cost of living.

    "Some" is very important, though. When you rent, your landlord takes care of a lot of things that you don't have to. You won't quite grasp that until suddenly everything in the house is your problem.

    Own property with trees? You have to think about how to manage those trees. If one is poised to fall, you have to deal with it.

    Small plumbing issue? Hire someone, or learn how to do it.

    Do you know how much it costs to redo a driveway? How about a new roof? Those are your problems now.

    Got a lawn? How much do you like mowing? Here's a hint - you don't.

    So yeah, sure, you will recoup the money you would've otherwise spent in rent, and you'll have a real asset on your balance sheet - but you have to spend money to maintain that value, and so the net might not be as much as you think.

    What that asset will gave you later is leverage, which can be totally worth it - but really, if you want property as an investment, you'll look at a property you can rent to someone else. A house by itself is a fancy toy that someone will buy from you later, but in the intervening time you've spent a lot more to live there.

    I know all this, but remember that silver spoon? I've lived in a house with trees my whole life, I've seen how many rooms have had to be redone, how many rock walls rebuilt (we live on a lake) how many trees taken down and how much the cost goes up if it falls into the water. I'm prepared to do all that. In addition for some properties we own, I've been the first dispatched to go fix stupid shit for tenants. My life is already structured such that it's kind of like I've owned for a long time.

    I'm sorta looking to continue a legacy here. I know I'm in different spot than most folks but that's what it is.

    The monkey wrench is that I understand how much my life improves when I move into the city. I'm kinda looking to have my cake and eat it.
  • RymRym
    edited November 2016
    Bear in mind too that unless you buy in the far outer rings of the city, buy a really run-down cheapo place, or get insanely lucky, you're not going to get a mortgage. There aren't mortgages for a surprising percentage of property buying in NYC.

    Pay cash up front, or bring in a private lender.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • Rym said:

    Bear in mind too that unless you buy in the far outer rings of the city, buy a really run-down cheapo place, or get insanely lucky, you're not going to get a mortgage. There aren't mortgages for a surprising percentage of property buying in NYC.

    Pay cash up front, or bring in a private lender.

    And therein lies my problem, I don't have that kind of cash on hand without liquidating other assets. I'm not willing to. Like my grandpa always said "Don't liquidate the capitol". He probably would have voted trump had he not died, but he knew how to manage money.
  • Rym said:

    Bear in mind too that unless you buy in the far outer rings of the city, buy a really run-down cheapo place, or get insanely lucky, you're not going to get a mortgage. There aren't mortgages for a surprising percentage of property buying in NYC.

    Pay cash up front, or bring in a private lender.

    Yep. NYC real estate is completely different than everywhere else on earth. If mortgages were a thing here, I'd probably own already.
  • You don't actually need to be a millionaire to own an apartment in NYC, but you need to make enough to pay a million-dollar-or-so loan - my aunt and uncle actually recently bought an apartment in I think Bushwick.

    Rym and Scott could probably actually afford an NYC home loan. And buy now because interest rates are so low.
  • You don't actually need to be a millionaire to own an apartment in NYC, but you need to make enough to pay a million-dollar-or-so loan - my aunt and uncle actually recently bought an apartment in I think Bushwick.

    Rym and Scott could probably actually afford an NYC home loan. And buy now because interest rates are so low.

    I looked into it. If I stay near the subway, in the absolute best case scenario I could get a nice condo or co-op where the total monthly payment will only be slightly higher than my current rent by $100 or so. Even then, I can't afford that down payment. I could borrow money from my 401k to make the down payment, but then i would have to pay that money back to myself with interest. That would be two loans, instead of one, which is not affordable.

    Did I also mention that my current apartment is rent stabilized. Always taking 1-year leases, my rent has gone up by 0% for the past two years. There's not a damn thing the landlord can do about it either. The rent board just decides, and that's that. There's even a large push to get them to roll rents back. My rent could possibly go DOWN even when the market value of the apartment goes up. Property taxes, not so much. it's hard to justify moving while the stabilization is still in effect.

    Instead of trying to save up $80K+ for a down payment, I just bought a hockey ticket plan instead. Life is better this way. Oh look at the calendar. It's motherfucking puck night! Wooo!

    And that's the real magic of living in NYC. Yeah, your rent is high, but you aren't just getting an apartment for that rent. When you take a five minute walk after work to take a peek at Starry Night for free, that's not free. You paid for that in your rent. When you get a very delicious bagel for $1 that can't be had outside of NYC, that bagel wasn't actually $1. You just pre-paid most of the cost in your rent. When you walk past the Empire State Building and take a gander at it like it's no big deal without having to pay for travel, hotel, etc. that's not actually a free sightseeing vacation. You paid for that in your rent. When you turn on the tap and the most delicious water outside of a natural spring comes out, that isn't free.

    You get the idea.
  • Rym said:

    There aren't mortgages for a surprising percentage of property buying in NYC.

    What? Why? How? Why wouldn't a bank want to get in on that action?
  • RymRym
    edited November 2016
    One reason:
    http://themortgagereports.com/16931/2015-conforming-mortgage-loan-limits-interest-rates
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumbo_mortgage

    Another reason is that sellers don't want to fuck around with you. There are plenty of cash buyers here, so they'll ignore you and go with one of those even if they offer less.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • Interesting. If Freddie and Fannie upped their limits, do you think that would result in a more "normal" mortgage market?
  • Starfox said:

    Interesting. If Freddie and Fannie upped their limits, do you think that would result in a more "normal" mortgage market?

    Sellers still prefer cash. =(

    Owning also ain't cheap in nice places. Taxes are very high, and there are big fees to maintain buildings and utilities and such.
  • You could always move to Sydney, where if you and scott put your salaries together, beacon style, you can afford a lovely...shed. That probably doesn't leak and might even have windows.
  • Ugh, fuck the Bay Area. I want to move to someplace cheap. Like Hong Kong.
  • You could move down here. Cheaper than the Bay Area for sure.
  • You could move down here. Cheaper than the Bay Area for sure.

    Lived a summer in SoCal...I'll pass ~_^
  • Come to Austin best Texas BBQ around. Summers are brutal here though. But no winters either.
  • I hear Oregon is pretty cheap...
  • Come to Austin best Texas BBQ around. Summers are brutal here though. But no winters either.

    Too crowded I heard.
    Daikun said:

    I hear Oregon is pretty cheap...

    Portland is nice, but not much regarding gainful employment for high tech.

  • Only thing bad about Washington is that you guys don't live here.

    And no NHL.
  • edited November 2016
    Andrew said:

    Come to Austin best Texas BBQ around. Summers are brutal here though. But no winters either.

    Too crowded I heard.
    Daikun said:

    I hear Oregon is pretty cheap...

    Portland is nice, but not much regarding gainful employment for high tech.

    You have New Relic and Intel basically.
    Post edited by MATATAT on
  • edited November 2016

    Come to Austin best Texas BBQ around. Summers are brutal here though. But no winters either.

    What I heard: Delicious BBQ but you have to put up with brutal summers and on top of that you're not allowed to make snowmen in your yard or play hockey on the lake.
    Post edited by Naoza on
  • Every few years the region does experience a hard freeze. You could always make an icecube man.
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