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Homeowners association strikes again

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  • And that's why the Homeowners Association sucks.
  • That's all fine and good, but unless you're going to metaphorically get in your metaphorical Gundam and use your metaphorical newtype powers to do som'bow'this (and, from experience, ignoring the bully never works so "Don't move there" is about as good as pissing up a river during a tropical storm) then this is all a bunch of fist waving at the bad guys from Hot Fuzz, ain'it?
  • I personally believe HOAs are great organizations, when they are run right. When I lived in Virgina, our neighborhood was starting a HOA, so my parents went in and started to look and get into it. For the first meeting, a professional HOA organizer was there with a giant piece of paper on the wall and asked the crowd, "What do you want to do to improve your neighborhood". Everyone at that point started to tell him all the rules they wanted in their neighborhood. The list had everything from pick up your dog shit to standard house color and yards. When the list was full, the professional HOA organizer took the list, crumpled it up, and threw it away, stating "Everyone, a Homeowner's Association is not met to be an organization that enforces rules, but an organization that brings the community together..." and more stuff I don't remember. In the end, our HOA ran entirely on donations and was community ran, and the only thing it did was throw a giant party on the main street of the neighborhood once a year.

    Despite this anecdote, I also agree that uncool old people can also be part of the problem when it comes to a crappy HOA. There was this old lady in the HOA who was always sending everyone fines and notices, especially us, who had a bright yellow house with a shiny red door. We all just ignored her, since reason will never come to her.

    However, despite that, you guys also do not take into account the advantages of a HOA. If you see your house as an investment (in which you should), an HOA can both help it maintain and bolster it's value, keep the crack addict down the street from having a run-down house, and prevents your pot-smoking neighbors from having trash and shit in their front lawns, so when you sell your house, the buyers look at your street and say "Wow, every house here looks nice and I smell pot! This is the place for me!".

    In the end, only the most drastic and horrible HOA's are going to make it to the headlines, not the ordinary ones. Heck, my family made a giant pentagram and put it in our front lawn for Christmas, and our HOA didn't bother us for shit, and we live in Gilbert, Arizona, the place second only to Utah with the most Mormons.
    The solution is pretty simple. HOAs won't have elected boards anymore. An HOA is a small enough organization that there is no reason it can't be a direct democracy. Also, all voting should be done the HOAs web site. The HOA must start out with no rules whatsoever. To add a rule, they need a majority vote. Abstentions automatically count as no votes. If the entire community really agrees on something, they can get together and create a bylaw. Otherwise, the default that everyone can do as they please on their own property will stand.
    Nice Ivory Tower solution, to bad 99% of people don't know how to make a website in the first place, let alone be willing and able to get onto the site and vote. I predict a worse HOA will come of that idea, if the old people figure out how to double click the big E to go to it in the first place. But, then again, I don't have a better idea for HOA, so you win.

    Anyway, that's my rant. I'm now going to drink water to recover from the heart attack I almost had when I backed out of this page onto the main forum page without posting this.
  • For the first meeting, a professional HOA organizer was there with a giant piece of paper on the wall and asked the crowd, "What do you want to do to improve your neighborhood". Everyone at that point started to tell him all the rules they wanted in their neighborhood. The list had everything from pick up your dog shit to standard house color and yards. When the list was full, the professional HOA organizer took the list, crumpled it up, and threw it away, stating "Everyone, a Homeowner's Association is not met to be an organization that enforces rules, but an organization that brings the community together..." and more stuff I don't remember. In the end, our HOA ran entirely on donations and was community ran, and the only thing it did was throw a giant party on the main street of the neighborhood once a year.
    This guy knows what's up.
  • edited August 2011
    [Comment removed. Wrong thread.]
    Post edited by chaosof99 on
  • Clockian, your anecdote aside and your somewhat valid point about keeping property values higher, HOA's as they currently exist are abhorrent. If a community wants to organize a yearly block party, they can do that without creating an HOA that jeopardizes every home owner's right to utilize their property as they see fit. No matter how well intentioned an individual HOA may be, they wield far too much power over the individual homeowner. No matter how much value they may bring to the neighborhood, there is no real monetary amount that would ever justify the curtailing of freedoms that they impose. My property is my property. As long as it complies with health, safety, and zoning laws, then it should be enough for my neighbors. If I want to paint my house an unconventional color or skip a week mowing, then that should me my choice. If my neighbors are truly neighborly they will adopt a live-and-let-live mentality.
  • The problem is that there is very little to limit the power of an HOA in the US. A "great" one may do wonderful things for a community, but it only takes one bad election to completely reverse it. No checks or balances, no accountability, and nearly unlimited power do not a reasonable organization make. Also bear in mind that in many communities, HOAs aren't optional boards one sets up: they're part of the deed to the property. There's no way out if you are in, and they have the power to take your house away.
  • edited August 2011
    There's no way out if you are in, and they have the power to take your house away.
    That's what you get for being a commie pinko terrorist as decided by a panel of your peers!

    It does seem like a lot of the "advantages" of having an HOA, as described above, are based around getting rid of undesirables.
    Post edited by Byron on
  • If you care more about your property values and what color your neighbor's house is than you care about the freedom of people to do as they please on their own property, then you deserve to suffer the tyranny of an HOA.
  • edited August 2011
    If you care more about your property values and what color your neighbor's house is than you care about the freedom of people to do as they please on their own property, then you deserve to suffer the tyranny of an HOA.
    This sentence approaches good old Ben Franklin in a rather surprising manner. Contrast and compare:
    They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    Post edited by chaosof99 on
  • HOAs are pretty much useless anyway when you think about it. Things such as keeping the yard relatively well maintained, making sure your house is painted and not falling apart, etc., tend to already be covered by local building codes anyway. Frankly, I don't care what color my neighbor's house is as long as the paint isn't peeling and the siding isn't falling off. Similarly, I don't care what their yard looks like so long as it's reasonably neat and tidy.
  • This is certainly one of those cases where this kind of shit has been going on forever, and people are only now getting pissed off/hearing about it because of the internet.
  • Frankly, I don't care what color my neighbor's house is as long as the paint isn't peeling and the siding isn't falling off. Similarly, I don't care what their yard looks like so long as it's reasonably neat and tidy.
    Why care about what your neighbor's house or lawn look like AT ALL? If he has peeling paint, so what? Dude can't afford vinyl siding. Now, if he never takes his trash out and the odor encroaches onto your property, that's a different story. I say let them do whatever they want until it actually encroaches. And I don't count "property values" as encroaching. If you want an investment, go buy stocks. A house is a place to live.
  • If you want an investment, go buy stocks. A house is a place to live.
    There is nothing wrong with that sentiment, but a person who feels that way is self-selecting to live places where there are not HOA's and therefore people's property frequently looks like crap. I'm not calling you out, just pointing out that you can't have it both ways. The problem is that a lot of people that have the luxury of choice have the mindset that they want to live in a community, not just a place that is a roof over their heads. I would be more bothered by a person who avoids living with an HOA and then complains about the neighbors than the crazy crap some HOA's get up to. It all comes down to making informed choices.
  • The problem is that a lot of people that have the luxury of choice have the mindset that they want to live in a community,
    These people don't want to live in communities. They never talk to their neighbors or give a fuck about them. They just want to live somewhere with a zillion identical houses as scenery, and would be happiest if nobody ever lived in those other houses. If you really want a community where you actually interact, socialize, and care about your neighbors, you live in a city.
  • Although I don't agree with HOA's, it seems really fucking bonkers, what about communes Scott? There are other places where people can live together and do all those things that isn't a city.
  • Frankly, I don't care what color my neighbor's house is as long as the paint isn't peeling and the siding isn't falling off. Similarly, I don't care what their yard looks like so long as it's reasonably neat and tidy.
    Why care about what your neighbor's house or lawn look like AT ALL? If he has peeling paint, so what? Dude can't afford vinyl siding. Now, if he never takes his trash out and the odor encroaches onto your property, that's a different story. I say let them do whatever they want until it actually encroaches. And I don't count "property values" as encroaching. If you want an investment, go buy stocks. A house is a place to live.
    Most town (not HOA) building codes require that the house paint not be peeling. There is also a potential safety/health hazard in peeling paint as, if it's old enough, it may be lead-based (although admittedly this isn't a problem on newer construction). This may also encroach somewhat on my property if any of said peeling paint, lead-based or otherwise, is blown onto my property by the wind.

    On the lawn, I think what you said is mostly what I meant by "reasonably neat and tidy." Everyone has times where they can't keep the lawn properly mowed all the time or whatever, even myself. Just try to do a decent effort and make sure that you do take out the trash and that your yard doesn't turn into an overgrown reserve for all sorts of wild critters that may also spill over into my yard. Most towns (again, the town, not the HOA) also have building codes that require lawns to be mown or at least minimally cared for (converting the lawn into a rock garden or whatever would also be acceptable -- remember, just keep it reasonably neat and tidy, however you decide to do so). I'm not saying that you need a perfect green lawn that looks like the outfield at Fenway Park -- just that it looks like you put a little bit of effort into it to keep it from looking like the Amazon rainforest.

    It's not a property value thing -- it's more of a safety and being considerate to your neighbors thing.
  • Although I don't agree with HOA's, it seems really fucking bonkers, what about communes Scott? There are other places where people can live together and do all those things that isn't a city.
    A commune is nothing like an HOA. In an HOA you own your house. It's your house that you paid for. Yet, other people are telling you what to do with your house that belongs to you.

    In a commune you might live in a particular cabin, but that cabin doesn't belong to you. Everyone in a commune owns everything. So if you dirty up your cabin and let it rot, well it's also Joe's cabin, and my cabin. They have a right to complain because it's only partially yours. It belongs to everyone, and it was your responsibility to take care of it, and you fucked up.
  • just that it looks like you put a little bit of effort into it to keep it from looking like the Amazon rainforest.
    I actually prefer Amazon rainforest style, aesthetically. A whole bunch of crazy plants growing all over everything is a lot cooler than flat grass. It gives a house a very Ghibli kinda feeling. HOAs wouldn't allow that, though.
  • It might just be something that we have over here but the community near to where I lived and others round it all owned their houses. They would gather as a community to decide how they wanted to allocate funding and all that malarky. They had a monthly chair person, who's only job was to count and read from a list, and they all voted on what would happen. Then again they were an ex-nudest colony.

    I wasn't saying that they were the same, they're not. I was saying that cities aren't the only places with community.
  • I was saying that cities aren't the only places with community.
    Clearly, but HOAs are definitely one of the last places to have real community.
  • I would agree with that yeah. There are bound to be exceptions to the rule of course, its easy to fall into the trap of making generalised remarks.
  • I would agree with that yeah. There are bound to be exceptions to the rule of course, its easy to fall into the trap of making generalised remarks.
    On the topic of generalized remarks. I find it very annoying that any time anyone words anything in a general fashion on the Internets, people come down on them hard.

    If someone says something like "HOAs are all so terrible" that they do not actually mean that every single HOA is bad. It's obvious that there are bound to be at least one or two good HOAs, if not more. The point is that they are almost always abhorrent. Having to specifically reiterate the fact that there are exceptions to every rule in every single discussion about anything ever is extremely monotonous and has the potential to drag any discussion off-topic.

    When someone speaks in general terms, I safely assume they are aware there are at least a few exceptions, excepting cases where there are obviously none. e.g.: All water is wet.
  • I would agree with that yeah. There are bound to be exceptions to the rule of course, its easy to fall into the trap of making generalised remarks.
    On the topic of generalized remarks. I find it very annoying that any time anyone words anything in a general fashion on the Internets, people come down on them hard.

    If someone says something like "HOAs are all so terrible" that they do not actually mean that every single HOA is bad. It's obvious that there are bound to be at least one or two good HOAs, if not more. The point is that they are almost always abhorrent. Having to specifically reiterate the fact that there are exceptions to every rule in every single discussion about anything ever is extremely monotonous and has the potential to drag any discussion off-topic.

    When someone speaks in general terms, I safely assume they are aware there are at least a few exceptions, excepting cases where there are obviously none. e.g.: All water is wet.
    But that would involve thinking, and it's much easier to simply call you a fucking faggot and launch in to my own barely related anecdote.
  • AmpAmp
    edited August 2011
    own barely related anecdote.
    Anecdote you say? Why I remember when I was taking the ferry and I had a onion tied to belt, as was the fashion in those days. I said to the ferry man give me two bees...
    When someone speaks in general terms, I safely assume they are aware there are at least a few exceptions, excepting cases where there are obviously none
    I deal with idiots on a daily basis. I wish that such things could be assumed.
    Post edited by Amp on
  • When someone speaks in general terms, I safely assume they are aware there are at least a few exceptions, excepting cases where there are obviously none. e.g.: All water is wet.
    And this is how Hitler came to power. "Ve hav to kill all ze Jews." "Surely he can't mean all the Jews. He's simply being hyperbolic. I'm voting Hitler!"
  • When someone speaks in general terms, I safely assume they are aware there are at least a few exceptions, excepting cases where there are obviously none. e.g.: All water is wet.
    And this is how Hitler came to power. "Ve hav to kill all ze Jews." "Surely he can't mean all the Jews. He's simply being hyperbolic. I'm voting Hitler!"
    http://popeorhitler.com/
  • edited August 2011
    just that it looks like you put a little bit of effort into it to keep it from looking like the Amazon rainforest.
    I actually prefer Amazon rainforest style, aesthetically. A whole bunch of crazy plants growing all over everything is a lot cooler than flat grass. It gives a house a very Ghibli kinda feeling. HOAs wouldn't allow that, though.
    Maybe not the best example, but even an Amazon rainforest aesthetic can still look somewhat neat and tidy, I guess. It all depends on the execution, of course. I'm basically cool with anything that isn't a health or safety hazard and I feel that property that isn't reasonably well-maintained in some fashion or another could potentially harbor all sorts of dangerous and/or disease carrying wild animals, making it both a health and safety hazard.

    I'm just bringing it up because I remember reading a while back about an HOA screaming because someone in Arizona decided to turn their lawn into a rock garden of sorts with local plant life that could survive on little water. It looked very neat and tidy and obviously required more effort than the typical "mow and water" lawn. I'm fine with my neighbor doing something like that, even if an HOA wouldn't be.

    I'm also kind of big on the whole lawn is mowed and paint is not peeling thing due to personal experience. The paint is due to my own dealings with lead paint and the lawn is due to me getting a citation from the city for not mowing my lawn. Of course, at the time my dad was literally on his death bed and did pass on, so my mind wasn't quite on lawn maintenance...
    Post edited by Dragonmaster Lou on
  • The argument that property is not an investment is laughable. Yes a home is just a place you live, and not an investment, but nobody is telling you that you have to go out and own that home. When you decide to take that leap, then you've made an investment. If you have $200k and you put it into something that is not some sort of investment, then you are a fool.

    Also on a completely unrelated note, the one thing you guys haven't really covered is the concept of a condo, specifically ones that are built as townhouses or rowhomes. In condo properties, you do not actually own the physical space outside of your home. You own everything from the studs inwards, and a 1-person share of the entire physical property of the community. In this situation, you pay your monthly fee and the HOA does it all. These are useful to people who do not have the time or desire to maintain the outside of a home and the property surrounding it, and allow 100+ people to get a much better deal than hiring someone to take care of their house by using the power of bulk purchasing. Somebody has got to manage these contracts and decide what gets done around the community. In this situation you get to do whatever the hell you want inside your house, and can do nothing without explicit permission outside your home because that is not yours to do things with. (hope you don't like gardening). These are still subject to the same abuse by the old fogies that all other HOAs are. They can decide to do ridiculous things or jack up the monthly fee, but when you set up a community where the HOA has so much responsibility, somebody's gotta do it.
  • Condos can be cool and also uncool. On the one hand they usually do things that HOAs don't do. For example, condos usually have clubhouses with swimming pools and other shared facilities. These are all maintained by the condo, and everyone shares them.

    The bad part about condos is they still have rules and collective decisions made. For example, the entire condo might pick a cable/Internet provider, and that's all you can get. They also might have annoying rules about parking and such.

    Condos are still better than HOAs.
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