All of those make sense to me save one. Keeper of the Grove. I don't have a huge issue its large ass. It's a minor offensive threat anyway so who care it it takes two slaps to kill. I am actually quite happy with the knife thrower "nerf". 3/2 for 2 is a deal unto itself and its ability made it stupid valuable. Now I don't have to sweat its presence AS much anymore.
Overall the nerfs tell me they want to slow the game down a bit, which I welcome.
You'll still probably get blasted over and over until you build up a card base. Even when this game first came out I would have an opponent on the ropes and then they'd throw some card I didn't have and it would kill me.
Plus, a lot of the degenerate strategies (Face Hunter, Mech Mage, and Oil Rogue) are dead because of the rotation, meaning you're not going to be bored seeing the same five decks (as long as you stick to Standard).
OK, played some matches yesterday for the first time since like April of last year. It seems clear that pretty much every deck is going to be running C'Thun in one way or another...
OK, played some matches yesterday for the first time since like April of last year. It seems clear that pretty much every deck is going to be running C'Thun in one way or another...
Nope. Some of them are running Yogg whatsis face. I also got burned by a Rogue running the Deathrattle guy.
People are running C'Thun because they have him. They don't necessarily have those other guys unless they spent money or saved up their gold (like me). And despite saving up gold, I still don't have Yogg. That's the guy I want the most. I do have the twin emperor, though, which is pretty good. Decently makes up for the loss of Sludge Belcher.
IDK, The Boogeymaster looks pretty legit. But then again I know nothing really about Hearthstone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hearthstone is really a simple game as far as card games go. Fundamentally it's all about getting value per mana. Everyone starts with the same mana crystals, so if you can extract more value out of those crystals than your opponent, then you will win. Here are the ways you do that.
1) Keep minions alive for multiple turns. You put out a minion. You spent mana on it. If your opponent removes it, you still got some value from it, but hopefully it cost them a lot. If you summon some 8/8 giant, you would hope that your opponent gets rid of it with something expensive like maybe an 8/8 minion of their own that cost them a lot of mana. If they get rid of it by using hunter's mark and a knife juggler's knife, that's bad.
Under normal circumstances a minion can only use it's attack power once per turn. Every turn it survives is another turn where it's attack power can be used again. A fireball costs 4 mana to do 6 damage once. Now consider a minion with a 6 attack. Every turn it continues to live is basically giving you another fireball for free. Controlling the board such that you have minions and your opponent doesn't, means you get more value from your minions who deal their damage repeatedly, and then you win.
2) The opposite is also true. You want to remove your opponent's minions as efficiently as possible. You can use an equality/consecrate combo to clear your opponent's entire board for 6 mana. If you do this to get rid of one big minion, that's kind of sad. If you do it to get rid of a whole row of big minions, that's great. Also, the equality gives your own minions a health of 1, so if you have a bunch of high-health minions on the board when you do it, that's decreasing it's value.
Use a Frostbolt that cost 2 to kill a Mana Wyrm that cost 1 is kind of sad, but sometimes necessary. Using a Frostbolt to take out an Ethereal Conjurer that cost your opponent 5 is much nicer.
3) Spend all/most of your mana. If a turn goes by where you leave some crystals unused, that's usually not good. You probably could have played something extra, but didn't. The solution is card draw.
More cards in your hand means you have more options available to you on any given turn. you will be able to choose more efficient solutions to different problems, rather than settling for the inefficient solution that happens to be in your hand. You also will have cards to spend your mana on, and won't be left top-decking.
4) Play cards with synergy that create more value. Casting a fireball costs 4 and does 6 damage. Casting a fireball while a Flamewaker is on the board does 6 damage, and then two more for free. Every time you activate that Flamewaker's ability you get more for your mana crystal.
5) Aggro vs. Control. There are many different deck archetypes, but almost all the real ones are either aggro or control.
Aggro decks hope to efficiently spend all their mana quickly so that they can deal 30 damage to the opponent as quickly as possible. This will end the game before the opponent gets a chance to do anything. The weakness is that by playing all of their cards so quickly and efficiently, they run out of steam. If you can survive the onslaught, they won't have many cards left to finish you off. Then you can play your big expensive cards that they don't have many answers for.
Control decks are the opposite, and are where the game is at right now. You weather the storm with healing and efficient removal. Instead of winning quickly, you win inevitably. You play threatening cards that could get lots of value if your opponent doesn't answer them, and you answer their plays as well as you can. You make up for a lackluster early game with healing and drawing.
Eventually the turn of the tide comes. You come out on top in the war of attrition. You have control of the board, and a ton of mana You can make ridiculous plays every turn, and your opponent won't be able to do much about it. Drop your legendary bomb to finish them off.
6) Spend some money or play A LOT. You will just lose to people who have cards you don't have. There are types of decks you won't be able to play effectively because you don't have key cards. At the very least, buy the single player adventures. They are fun on their own and worth the price. As a bonus, they give you cards that are very good. Just by playing the adventure all the way through, you will get all the cards it has to give. You will also learn a lot about the game by playing them. They are like advanced tutorials, especially if you play on the hard mode.
7) Get lucky. Hearthstone is a game with a measly 30 card deck. They let you have at most 2 copies of a single card in this deck. Those are bad odds. You can't really count on any sort of consistency with these kinds of numbers. If you put in a ton of low cost cards to ensure a strong early game, you will have a very weak mid-late game. If you put in more high cost cards, you risk drawing them early and not being able to play anything on the early turns. Even with a nicely curved deck, sometimes the card draw just fucks you. There have been tons of games I've lost simply because I did not draw a particular card early enough, despite using cards that let me draw extra.
3) Spend all/most of your mana. If a turn goes by where you leave some crystals unused, that's usually not good. You probably could have played something extra, but didn't. The solution is card draw.
I think this is a problem I run into a lot. I started to notice yesterday that I was throwing stuff out too fast and it was just getting gobbled up immediately. So then I started to play more conservatively, but ended up just getting swarmed most of the time and then by the time I could play it was too late. Most of my strategy so far has boiled down to defense with various cards until mid/late game where I can start really dropping bombs. I've tried a few balances of this where sometimes its build up a lot fast then hold out for the big boys or just utilize taunt until you have enough mana to start dropping more than one. But trying to funnel them into attacking your dudes at their expense.
You are right in that you want to spend all your mana ideally, but I would say spend as much as you can wisely though. Don't start dropping things for the sake of spending mana. That was what I was doing. Timing seems key (with some luck too). Granted, you've put in a lot more hours than I have, but that was my biggest takeaway from playing a bunch of games yesterday.
EDIT: Ah I should have read more of your post. This is exactly what I started doing yesterday:
Control decks are the opposite, and are where the game is at right now. You weather the storm with healing and efficient removal. Instead of winning quickly, you win inevitably. You play threatening cards that could get lots of value if your opponent doesn't answer them, and you answer their plays as well as you can. You make up for a lackluster early game with healing and drawing.
Eventually the turn of the tide comes. You come out on top in the war of attrition. You have control of the board, and a ton of mana You can make ridiculous plays every turn, and your opponent won't be able to do much about it. Drop your legendary bomb to finish them off.
Well, there's only one way to avoid having your cards "gobbled up." That is, knowing what cards your opponent has, even though you can only see the card back. This applies to all card games. When I play Netrunner I can often tell you every single face down card and card in my opponent's hand even if they've never been revealed to me. In Hearthstone I often know exactly what my opponent is going to play on their turn. That only comes from playing lots and lots of games.
Even when you don't know for sure what they have, you know all the possibilities. Most importantly, you know the worst case scenario. If you play in such a way to counter the worst case scenario as best you can, you'll still do just fine if they make a play that isn't as bad as you expected.
For example, let's say I'm playing against a Mage. The Mage is going slow, mostly drawing and discovering cards. Building a very minimal board, and mostly just keeping mine under control. It's probably a Freeze Mage. I do NOT want to have a ton of minions on turn 7 when they are going to play Flamestrike. I either want just one or two minions, to decrease the value of their Flamestrike, or I want minions with Divine Shield or health >4.
If I'm playing against Murloc Paladin I know that Anyfin Can Happen on turn 10. I better save my Counterspell for turn 9. Better to counter a 10-cost spell than a cheaper one!
If I'm playing against literally anyone, I know emperor Thaurissan will appear on turn 6. I better have a way to get rid of him. If he stays for 2 or more turns, might as well concede, especially if they have a lot of cards in hand.
Yeah I still have to learn the cards a bit more since I end up getting surprised by stuff. I've tried to mostly compensate by expecting the worst of what I've seen so far.
I had to swap out a few cards as I ran out of dust but this took me from 18 to 14 with no losses tonight. I might make some more substitutions before I try to push any further.
I'm trying the Yogg deck. It's way fun, but not consistent. Sometimes it gets lucky and wins pre-yogg. If it doesn't, you just wait until Yogg o'clock and roll the dice. If that doesn't win it for you, then gg. C'thun isn't much more likely to win the game as he just does damage.
Yeah it is a super fun deck to play. I really like when I throw him down with Brann and my spell animations go on for five minutes. I like it even more when I win by turn 6 without Yogg out.
I haven't actually seen C'thun work for anyone I've played against in game. They either don't manage to get C'thun out or they don't kill me with it. The minions popping out early is nice though, I know everything needs to die before turn 10, so I can play more aggressively.
I've gotten some C'Thun kills. Really it's not as much about the C'Thun, but about cards like Twin Emperor that give insane power from C'Thun. Twin Emperor is like Sludge Belcher on crack.
So far I've been able to live the dream once. I played Bran and Twin Emperor on Turn 10. This gives you triplet Emperors! C'Thun on turn 11. Double C'Thun!
If you are interested in consistently winning games right now I think the best move is to play either Shaman or N'Zoth. Shaman is way boosted right now. It's just hard to keep up with them and their overloading. All the cards that made Shama sad before are not playable in standard. Mostly, Flamecannon to remove that pesky Totem Golem.
The Deathrattle N'Zoth thing is just crazy strong. I mostly see it in Rogue, but it works elsewhere. You can play deathrattle minions on a nice curve, and keep pace thanks to all the deathrattles firing. You even get extra coins and stuff. You play this solid mid-range game plus you get Rogue removal spells. Then Just when the opponent is about to catch up, you drop N'Zoth! I've only beaten this deck once because my opponent made a grave mistake. I was Warlock and they let one of my minions live, so I was able to Shadowflame to clear the board right away.
I've been wanting to try N'Zoth but alas I only saved up enough gold for like 30 packs, and he wasn't in there. And I already used the excess dust for Twin Emps, (amazing btw)
I've been wanting to try N'Zoth but alas I only saved up enough gold for like 30 packs, and he wasn't in there. And I already used the excess dust for Twin Emps, (amazing btw)
I got the guy who brings a minion out of your deck every turn, and also a golden version of him. I dusted the gold one for N'Zoth.
Also this is a really interesting thing I'd never considered. Perverse intensives when dusting.
What he fails to mention is that you can pretty much tell which cards are never ever going to get nerfs. Sure, he might get a bunch of extra dust from those owls since they just got nerfed. But by never dusting anything that hasn't just been nerfed, he's leaving thousands of dust just on the table.
I've been wanting to try N'Zoth but alas I only saved up enough gold for like 30 packs, and he wasn't in there. And I already used the excess dust for Twin Emps, (amazing btw)
I got the guy who brings a minion out of your deck every turn, and also a golden version of him. I dusted the gold one for N'Zoth.
Maybe it's just my propensity for seeing patterns when there are none but I did the same with the 5/5 monkey for 6 who gives you 2 bananas. Got 2, one golden one not, and dusted the gold one for a twin emps.
What he fails to mention is that you can pretty much tell which cards are never ever going to get nerfs. Sure, he might get a bunch of extra dust from those owls since they just got nerfed. But by never dusting anything that hasn't just been nerfed, he's leaving thousands of dust just on the table.
You could mitigate this. If you felt it was worth your time you could just check how much dust you have on the table (hover over the little dust all button) and then dust exactly what you need to get the thing you want. While you dust, pick and choose the ones you think will never be nerfed.
My time is way more valuable than that, but it's not above just never dusting until the day of a nerf unless I really need a card. I mean, I gotta admit, I was a bit jelly seeing him get 40dust/owl aka 280 dust from 7 commons.
You could mitigate this. If you felt it was worth your time you could just check how much dust you have on the table (hover over the little dust all button) and then dust exactly what you need to get the thing you want. While you dust, pick and choose the ones you think will never be nerfed.
Sure, you do that. I'm going to click the easy dust button. If that button didn't exist, you know I would be complaining about having to go around clicking like crazy to dust everything.
Comments
Overall the nerfs tell me they want to slow the game down a bit, which I welcome.
People are running C'Thun because they have him. They don't necessarily have those other guys unless they spent money or saved up their gold (like me). And despite saving up gold, I still don't have Yogg. That's the guy I want the most. I do have the twin emperor, though, which is pretty good. Decently makes up for the loss of Sludge Belcher.
1) Keep minions alive for multiple turns. You put out a minion. You spent mana on it. If your opponent removes it, you still got some value from it, but hopefully it cost them a lot. If you summon some 8/8 giant, you would hope that your opponent gets rid of it with something expensive like maybe an 8/8 minion of their own that cost them a lot of mana. If they get rid of it by using hunter's mark and a knife juggler's knife, that's bad.
Under normal circumstances a minion can only use it's attack power once per turn. Every turn it survives is another turn where it's attack power can be used again. A fireball costs 4 mana to do 6 damage once. Now consider a minion with a 6 attack. Every turn it continues to live is basically giving you another fireball for free. Controlling the board such that you have minions and your opponent doesn't, means you get more value from your minions who deal their damage repeatedly, and then you win.
2) The opposite is also true. You want to remove your opponent's minions as efficiently as possible. You can use an equality/consecrate combo to clear your opponent's entire board for 6 mana. If you do this to get rid of one big minion, that's kind of sad. If you do it to get rid of a whole row of big minions, that's great. Also, the equality gives your own minions a health of 1, so if you have a bunch of high-health minions on the board when you do it, that's decreasing it's value.
Use a Frostbolt that cost 2 to kill a Mana Wyrm that cost 1 is kind of sad, but sometimes necessary. Using a Frostbolt to take out an Ethereal Conjurer that cost your opponent 5 is much nicer.
3) Spend all/most of your mana. If a turn goes by where you leave some crystals unused, that's usually not good. You probably could have played something extra, but didn't. The solution is card draw.
More cards in your hand means you have more options available to you on any given turn. you will be able to choose more efficient solutions to different problems, rather than settling for the inefficient solution that happens to be in your hand. You also will have cards to spend your mana on, and won't be left top-decking.
4) Play cards with synergy that create more value. Casting a fireball costs 4 and does 6 damage. Casting a fireball while a Flamewaker is on the board does 6 damage, and then two more for free. Every time you activate that Flamewaker's ability you get more for your mana crystal.
5) Aggro vs. Control. There are many different deck archetypes, but almost all the real ones are either aggro or control.
Aggro decks hope to efficiently spend all their mana quickly so that they can deal 30 damage to the opponent as quickly as possible. This will end the game before the opponent gets a chance to do anything. The weakness is that by playing all of their cards so quickly and efficiently, they run out of steam. If you can survive the onslaught, they won't have many cards left to finish you off. Then you can play your big expensive cards that they don't have many answers for.
Control decks are the opposite, and are where the game is at right now. You weather the storm with healing and efficient removal. Instead of winning quickly, you win inevitably. You play threatening cards that could get lots of value if your opponent doesn't answer them, and you answer their plays as well as you can. You make up for a lackluster early game with healing and drawing.
Eventually the turn of the tide comes. You come out on top in the war of attrition. You have control of the board, and a ton of mana You can make ridiculous plays every turn, and your opponent won't be able to do much about it. Drop your legendary bomb to finish them off.
6) Spend some money or play A LOT. You will just lose to people who have cards you don't have. There are types of decks you won't be able to play effectively because you don't have key cards. At the very least, buy the single player adventures. They are fun on their own and worth the price. As a bonus, they give you cards that are very good. Just by playing the adventure all the way through, you will get all the cards it has to give. You will also learn a lot about the game by playing them. They are like advanced tutorials, especially if you play on the hard mode.
7) Get lucky. Hearthstone is a game with a measly 30 card deck. They let you have at most 2 copies of a single card in this deck. Those are bad odds. You can't really count on any sort of consistency with these kinds of numbers. If you put in a ton of low cost cards to ensure a strong early game, you will have a very weak mid-late game. If you put in more high cost cards, you risk drawing them early and not being able to play anything on the early turns. Even with a nicely curved deck, sometimes the card draw just fucks you. There have been tons of games I've lost simply because I did not draw a particular card early enough, despite using cards that let me draw extra.
You are right in that you want to spend all your mana ideally, but I would say spend as much as you can wisely though. Don't start dropping things for the sake of spending mana. That was what I was doing. Timing seems key (with some luck too). Granted, you've put in a lot more hours than I have, but that was my biggest takeaway from playing a bunch of games yesterday.
EDIT: Ah I should have read more of your post. This is exactly what I started doing yesterday:
Even when you don't know for sure what they have, you know all the possibilities. Most importantly, you know the worst case scenario. If you play in such a way to counter the worst case scenario as best you can, you'll still do just fine if they make a play that isn't as bad as you expected.
For example, let's say I'm playing against a Mage. The Mage is going slow, mostly drawing and discovering cards. Building a very minimal board, and mostly just keeping mine under control. It's probably a Freeze Mage. I do NOT want to have a ton of minions on turn 7 when they are going to play Flamestrike. I either want just one or two minions, to decrease the value of their Flamestrike, or I want minions with Divine Shield or health >4.
If I'm playing against Murloc Paladin I know that Anyfin Can Happen on turn 10. I better save my Counterspell for turn 9. Better to counter a 10-cost spell than a cheaper one!
If I'm playing against literally anyone, I know emperor Thaurissan will appear on turn 6. I better have a way to get rid of him. If he stays for 2 or more turns, might as well concede, especially if they have a lot of cards in hand.
I had to swap out a few cards as I ran out of dust but this took me from 18 to 14 with no losses tonight. I might make some more substitutions before I try to push any further.
I haven't actually seen C'thun work for anyone I've played against in game. They either don't manage to get C'thun out or they don't kill me with it. The minions popping out early is nice though, I know everything needs to die before turn 10, so I can play more aggressively.
So far I've been able to live the dream once. I played Bran and Twin Emperor on Turn 10. This gives you triplet Emperors! C'Thun on turn 11. Double C'Thun!
If you are interested in consistently winning games right now I think the best move is to play either Shaman or N'Zoth. Shaman is way boosted right now. It's just hard to keep up with them and their overloading. All the cards that made Shama sad before are not playable in standard. Mostly, Flamecannon to remove that pesky Totem Golem.
The Deathrattle N'Zoth thing is just crazy strong. I mostly see it in Rogue, but it works elsewhere. You can play deathrattle minions on a nice curve, and keep pace thanks to all the deathrattles firing. You even get extra coins and stuff. You play this solid mid-range game plus you get Rogue removal spells. Then Just when the opponent is about to catch up, you drop N'Zoth! I've only beaten this deck once because my opponent made a grave mistake. I was Warlock and they let one of my minions live, so I was able to Shadowflame to clear the board right away.
My time is way more valuable than that, but it's not above just never dusting until the day of a nerf unless I really need a card. I mean, I gotta admit, I was a bit jelly seeing him get 40dust/owl aka 280 dust from 7 commons.