No one can stop you from using an offensive word. I just run into a lot of people who don’t understand that “femi-nazi†is offensive to a lot of people, just as white suburban kids sometimes needs to be reminded that the N-word isn’t just a catchy phrase in hip-hop songs.
If your going to use a word, understand where is comes from but more importantly also understand that today it’s used mostly by crazy right-wing nuts to describe all women who don’t live in the kitchen. It’s genuinely better to not use the word just so you don’t sound like those idiots.
I'm tired of people saying you can't use words because of some historic meaning. You know what? The term geek historically means someone who bites the heads off of chickens. Guess what? When I say the word geek, I'm not talking about people who eat chickens heads. I'm talking about you and me. I would hope most people are intelligent enough to realize I'm not talking about a side show act from the previous century.
When someone uses a word with a historical burden, it is not difficult to tell what idea that person is attempting to communicate in context. Looking at the above example of the use of the word femi-nazi, it is obvious that only the super overzealous feminists who hate men, who do exist, are being referred to. It's also obvious that when I used the word shojo that I mean japanese comics with romance, relationships, etc. It's also obvious that when people use racial slurs which are applicable to themselves that they are not racist.
Remember, you don't have a right not to be offended. If you decide you are going to interpret words using only their historical meanings, you are going to end up hating a lot of people who you have no reason to hate. That's just too bad for you. I would hope most people are intelligent enough to infer the intended meanings of things that other people say. Trust me, you'll be much better off if you take what people say at face value, and not pretend they are saying something else. History is history. Recognize it, but leave it in the past.
It's not a matter of intelligence Scott but one of ignorance. History is lost when the original meanings of words are forgotten plain and simple. History forgotten is history repeated and we can stand not to have more than a few historical events repeated. It is each individual's perogative if they use the term geek or fag or queer or nigger or kike or femi-nazi and if they find a group where they can bounce the word off of each other fine. But I don't imagine you'd use certain words so nonchalantly in certain company. It is disrespectful not to recognize the pain and struggle attached to many of these words. There are individuals who are still attacked in this country while various slurs are screamed at them. Expecting the survivors to just suck it up and accept a new meaning is ignorant. There are terms I never use in respect for people's history and present day experiences. I don't live in a vaccuum and neither does anyone else.
The discussion of the word shoujo is not as volatile as that of derogatory sexist and/or racial slurs, but it still comes down to one thing, you either know the definition or you don't. You can go around creating new meanings for words but then you won't be able to communicate with most people.
It’s also just ignorant to take your anger at one person’s comment and generalize it to a larger group.
Feminism helped give us a lot of things that I think we all like: women in the work place, domestic violence being a crime, birth control, and premarital sex.
I don’t think we should have to disparage a whole political movement to make a point about a comic book.
And femi-nazi is a term used to disparage feminists either as a whole or the more zealous segments. If you hyphenate anything with nazi, the point is to disparage.
I often wonder if feminism was as good to woman as many woman claim.
Women in the work place - lead to more sexual harassment in BOTH directions. Domestic violence being a crime - this has always been a crime. Birth control - which lead to a rise in promiscuity among kids who were only concerned about babies and not STDs. Premarital sex - which lead to "why buy the cow when the milk is free".
I am a firm believer in equality, which I have always thought was the main goal of feminism. I have since found out that many feminists are not interested in settling for mere equality...
Did you even listen to the AWO episode before you wrote that?????? I'm not even gonna honor a reply to that other than it doesn't have anything to do with what I posted previously except taking only the quote... while some of the ideas were of merit, they weren't relevant to the conversation...
Clarissa's argument is so completely without meaning that it itself doesn't merit a response. Shoujo is a genre. That's just basic anime knowledge. I determined that the true reason behind the argument was radical feminist fervor, and adjusted my argument accordingly. I generally don't bother participating in obvious discussions. I prefer more edgy and often inflammatory topics. There's a couple of us on this board. =Þ
As a side note, please don’t use the word “femi-naziâ€Â. It’s generally considered offensive in women’s rights circles. True, there are some super overzealous feminists who hate men and all that, but the term “femi-nazi†has historically been used to dismiss all feminist inclined women as hairy, castrating, angry lesbians, which we aren't.
Sorry to offend, I wasn't sure if there were any actual women or feminists on this board. To be fair, I was using the term to inject irony into my statement. In the true Carlin/Penn/Colbert method, whether speaking directly or through satire, it's always good to inject a little self-degradation humor into something that could be offensive.
My real position on feminism is much like my position on masculinism (a la 300). There are, indeed, traits of men and women which should be understood and celebrated. There are, in fact, very real political, economic, and social effects of gender-based discrimination that should be addressed. When it comes to feminism, people should be, in my opinion, far more upset about things like abstinence-only education, taking the word "vagina" out of "The Vagina Monologues", and the continued gender gap in workplace salary. And, of course, the disgusting, repugnant "moralism" of Islam as it pertains to women. We should also be concerned about falling attendance rates of men in college, widespread genital mutilation from America to Africa, and the vanishing concept of true masculinity that involves neither abuse of other human beings nor servility to them.
I think there some very stupid arguments disguised as "feminism" that are really just "being nutty". Denying an entire genre of anime exists is just as stupid as changing the spelling of "women" because it has "men" in it. One cannot advance the causes of women by denying that they exist, that they have traits which make them entirely different from men, and why--let me stress this--that is a very good thing. People who make arguments like this are not feminists; they're just selfish people who happen to be women.
If I were to invade a country in imperialist interest, take away people's freedoms, and violate my country's judicial integrity, then I'm not an American just because I live in the U.S. Just claiming to represent America wouldn't change the fact that I'm not actually looking out for America's best interests, but my own. See my point?
I often wonder if feminism was as good to woman as many woman claim.
Women in the work place - lead to more sexual harassment in BOTH directions. Domestic violence being a crime - this has always been a crime. Birth control - which lead to a rise in promiscuity among kids who were only concerned about babies and not STDs. Premarital sex - which lead to "why buy the cow when the milk is free".
I am a firm believer in equality, which I have always thought was the main goal of feminism. I have since found out that many feminists are not interested in settling for mere equality...
No political movement is perfect. Every social change has upsides and downsides, but social change occurs because the benefits outweigh the side effects.
I'm not even going to try and aruge against your above opinions because I disagree with them so fundamentally that it would lead to a rant that no one wants to read.
But i will correct a factual error, domestic violence has not always been a crime and it is currently not a crime with legal ramifications in all countries today.
Feminism is about women having the choice to pursue anything they choose in the world, a right which was and in many ways still is reserved for men. Equality to men per se is a limited view. Feminism is also a broad term that encompasses three different waves (first, second and third waves) and a myriad of concerns. "Feminism", as most people know it, refers to second wave mainstream feminism which was aimed at the concerns of middle class white women, the mainstream. This was around the 60s and 70s. As you may guess, that's only a portion of feminism and it only addressed the concerns of a certain portion of women.
Is feminism to blame for sexual harassment or just the lascivious nature of some people? Domestic violence, and in this case violence against women by boyfriends and husbands, has always been a crime but that doesn't mean it's always been treated as one. "She decided to be with him. It's her fault. They're married, you can't get involved in their marriage." Is "promiscuity" the reason for the increased spread of STDs or lack of proper sexual health education? Premarital sex... buying the cow when the milk is free... so are we to imply that all men and women get married to have sex and no other reason? So the whole population is really that shallow eh?
I actually do see your point. The problem with the word femi-nazi is not just that its offensive but it actually does a disservice to you. When someone says “femi-nazi†in an argument it will make a genuine non-nutty feminist say to them selves, “oh god another crazy conservative idiot†and its shuts down the possibility of a healthy debate.
As for the actual topic at hand, I do think Clarrisa over reacted. Shoujo is an area of anime intended for girls. What’s frustrating about Scotts email is the assumption that sci-fi can’t be for girls.
Let me ask this. Why would you choose to be offended when no offense was intended? People can say things that are both offensive and inoffensive with and without the use of words that are historically loaded. Why choose to interpret people's meanings in the most negative possible light when that is obviously not the intent?
If someone isn't anti-semitic, and they use the word "kike", who cares? It's just a word, it won't hurt you. Why choose to make it hurt you? Who cares if someone happens to use the word feminazi, fag or nigger? Did they say, non-jokingly, that women should get back in the kitchen? Did they say that homosexuals are sub-human and should be killed? Did they say that they think people with different genetics are inferior to other humans? No, they didn't say those things. So why pretend they did? If someone is a real hater, in the KKK or something, that is one story. If someone isn't, then what does it matter?
It is the year 2007. In the year 2007 many words mean something different than they did in the year 1907. Rock is a musical genre in addition to a stone of minerals. Cool is no longer just a descriptor of temperature. The word podcast is brand new. If anyone is just deciding what words mean it is the people who insist on enforcing the 1907 definitions. They are actively and irrationally fighting against the natural evolution of the living language. Words mean what most people take them to mean. For most people in the english speaking world, shojo means comics that tend to have romance, drama and feminine themes. If you don't like that, you're going to have a rough time.
Most people are not racists, sexists or anti-semites. They're just people conveying ideas using words according to their modern, widely accepted, definitions. If you insist on saying that people intended a meaning that they obviously did not, that just sucks for you. If you insist on being offended when people are not trying to offend, you're not going to live a happy life. If you somehow think that subscribing the commonly held, if indeed un-Japanese, definition of a word means that I hate females, that's just a failing of logic you're going to have to live with.
I think that Penn and Tellers' Bullshit episode on Profanity is very relevant.
As for the actual topic at hand, I do think Clarrisa over reacted. Shoujo is an area of anime intended for girls. What’s frustrating about Scotts email is the assumption that sci-fi can’t be for girls.
But i will correct a factual error, domestic violence has not always been a crime and it is currently not a crime with legal ramifications in all countries today.
I am looking at this discussion from an entirely American point of view. For purposes of this particular discussion I will be commenting as if the USA was the only country involved in this discussion.
Violence is violence. If someone hurts you in a way that is a crime it matters not if you are married to that person or not.
You didn’t say it, but when you say “this is straight-up sci-fi how could it be shoujo (manga for girls)" it implies that sci-fi isn’t for girls. I know you didn’t mean to say that but it came off that way and I think that’s what Clarissa went off on.
Violence is violence. If someone hurts you in a way that is a crime it matters not if you are married to that person or not.
By definition a crime is something that is legally prohibited. Domestic violence has always been wrong but it hasn’t always been prohibited by law, thus it hasn’t always been a crime. At the founding of our country women were essentially the legal property of their husbands, and therefore had no legal right to make charges against their husbands. http://www.legacy98.org/timeline.html
You didn’t say it, but when you say “this is straight-up sci-fi how could it be shoujo (manga for girls)" it implies that sci-fi isn’t for girls. I know you didn’t mean to say that but it came off that way and I think that’s what Clarissa went off on. I may not be Scott but, that line is used to illustrate that the anime/manga in question is not limitted by being only for girls. The context of the statement is very clear.
Violence is violence. If someone hurts you in a way that is a crime it matters not if you are married to that person or not.
By definition a crime is something that is legally prohibited. Domestic violence has always been wrong but it hasn’t always been prohibited by law, thus it hasn’t always been a crime. While i agree that violence is violence, the laws of our counrty haven't always agreed.
It still makes no difference. If your spouse stabs you with a knife it is a crime. Violence (as a crime) is not defined by who did but by what was done. domestic violence may not have been reported as much in the past but it was still a crime.
You didn’t say it, but when you say “this is straight-up sci-fi how could it be shoujo (manga for girls)" it implies that sci-fi isn’t for girls. I know you didn’t mean to say that but it came off that way and I think that’s what Clarissa went off on.
Well, I can tell you for sure I wasn't implying anything. I was very clear. I said it was a straight-up sci-fi. Not a sci-fi with romance. Not a sci-fi with relationships. Just sci-fi. By my definition, a sci-fi manga is... a sci-fi manga. It's not a shojo, it's not a shonen. It's a sci-fi manga.
If you really think about it, AWO's definition of shojo is sexist. They're basically saying that some comics are meant for girls and some are meant for boys. It's no different than saying Barbie is for girls and Matchbox is for boys. I'm saying that shojo comics are comics with romance, pretty boys, etc. My definition makes no claims about who should be creating or enjoying these comics.
For most people in the english speaking world, shojo means comics that tend to have romance, drama and feminine themes. If you don't like that, you're going to have a rough time.
I think the shoujo should mean a genre of japanese comics that is aimed towards girls whatever its content might be. This is what Clarissa was also saying.
Why make a new genre when we already have names for those kind of genres?
Seinen comics is a genre of comics for men but yet it includes very romantic titles like Emma. Are you going to say that Emma can't be seinen because it doesn't contain violence?
Do you choose all of your emotions? As the day goes on, do you sit and choose to be annoyed or happy or restless or hurt. If, heaven forbid, Rym died, would you choose to be sad? Choosing to be offended... That's absurd. Emotions just are. You are simply belittling the lives and experiences of people who would be offended.
Moving on, "it was just a joke," or "I didn't mean it like that," is used quite often to veil racism, sexism, homophobia and any form of hate that exists out there. You can use whatever word you want, freedom of speech and all, but using slurs and derogatory words shows that you lack a certain level of social consciousness, intelligence, and have only a cursory understanding of history at best. I would add sensitivity to and compassion for your fellow man but somehow I don't really think you'd care about those ones. Short of very smart satire, I've never seen or heard a slur or derogatory word used intelligently by anyone.
Moving back to shoujo:
It's also obvious that when I used the word shojo that I mean japanese comics with romance, relationships, etc.
From the email:
The character designs are a little bit shoujoish, but other than that I notice nothing that makes To Terra a shoujo manga.
The thing about it is that romance and relationships are not topics exclusive to shoujo manga. And what is shoujoish? Might you have meant "girly?" Really and truly why is it so hard to admit you may not have had the best understanding of what shoujo is? Could it be ego possibly? It's not as if you have to know everything. People learn new things everyday.
Well, I can tell you for sure I wasn't implying anything. I was very clear. I said it was a straight-up sci-fi. Not a sci-fi with romance. Not a sci-fi with relationships. Just sci-fi. By my definition, a sci-fi manga is... a sci-fi manga. It's not a shojo, it's not a shonen. It's a sci-fi manga.
That actually is a very interesting point. Our assumption is generally that all things are male by default, and must have some special feminine qualities to be classified as female. I say this both as a cultural observation and because I’m familiar with some interesting research done a while back in which subjects where shown faces with a mixture of gendered features and asked to assign gender. In the experiment it took 4 female cues to over ride one male cue.
We make the assumption that if it isn’t female it must be male, instead of gender neutral.
If you really think about it, AWO's definition of shojo is sexist. They're basically saying that some comics are meant for girls and some are meant for boys. It's no different than saying Barbie is for girls and Matchbox is for boys. I'm saying that shojo comics are comics with romance, pretty boys, etc.
AWO’s definition is sexist but it’s not a definition of their own invention. It is a definition created by Japanese publishing companies, and Japan is a much more gender divided country than our own.
I'm saying that shojo comics are comics with romance, pretty boys, etc. My definition makes no claims about who should be creating or enjoying these comics.
I would argue that it is impossible to give a gender-neutral definition to a genre that literally means "Girl" in Japanese.
Wow, I have come to the realization that knowledge of many things such: Kike in spanish is a nick name for anyone that is called Enrique, I never new that is was an offensive slur. I have come to the realization that there are many words that mean something in one language and not in the other. In Portuguese the word "Pinga" is a delicious alcoholic beverage. However, in most countries that speak spanish "Pinga" means dick.
I remember that it was a total cultural shock when I first came to the United States and my aunts told me that there are some words that american consider insulting, while those same words in any other country from south america are use everyday. One of those words would be "negrito". We use the word as a mean of affection. We really have no other means o terms like "african-peruvian" or "african-equadorian". But then again most of all the races in south america where under one common enemy which was Spain, so maybe that is what united us.
It truly saddens me when I see racism in USA. Because, when I was a kid and my only means of understanding USA was through TV. I considered a place where everyone was treated with the respect they deserved. Do not get me wrong USA is a great place but still I wanted to see the USA that myself as a 12 year old was hoping to see.
Ok, I went a lot of topic. But this is what happens when I favorite podcast fight each other.
It's also obvious that when I used the word shojo that I mean japanese comics with romance, relationships, etc.
If you really think about it, AWO's definition of shojo is sexist. They're basically saying that some comics are meant for girls and some are meant for boys. It's no different than saying Barbie is for girls and Matchbox is for boys. I'm saying that shojo comics are comics with romance, pretty boys, etc. My definition makes no claims about who should be creating or enjoying these comics.
It's really not that obvious. The general US audience thinks the shoujo is a genre for girls, contains the stuff you mentioned, and is done in what you called "the shoujo style". This is also how it's marketed in America. Your definition is unique. I don't think that Clarissa would have known that you thought this because the things you said sounded alot like the aforementioned US definition.
Scott, I know you were seriously curious and you only made a mistake in how you asked. You know that Clarissa and the others do a lot of research into anime and they go solely by the Japanese definition of the things (with few exceptions). When you come to them using the word shoujo in your unique definition, of course they are going to get mad. It's like asking them how come the people in Sanctuary doesn't have big eyes. This doesn't mean that I think they are right for slamming you like this. But I understand where they are coming from.
I don't think they hate you. I think its more like you pushed a button this time.
We make the assumption that if it isn’t female it must be male, instead of gender neutral.
This is the result of millions of years of evolution. The male dominated the social system due to larger body structure and thus physical dominance played an important part in sexual reproduction (alpha mate gets to reproduce the most). It is only inherent that males would be considered to be dominant, the alpha male would make all the decisions of the group.
I don't understand why feminists can't acknowledge that, yes, the genders are inherently different! Our reproductive organs are vastly different as well as our chemical makeup (women don't produce as much testosterone as men). 99% of the time, women are weaker than men. This doesn't mean they are inferior, just different. Women also have advantages over men, mostly in the intellectual realm.
Well, I can tell you for sure I wasn't implying anything. I was very clear. I said it was a straight-up sci-fi. Not a sci-fi with romance. Not a sci-fi with relationships. Just sci-fi. By my definition, a sci-fi manga is... a sci-fi manga. It's not a shojo, it's not a shonen. It's a sci-fi manga.
A manga can be shoujo and sci-fi and it doesn't have to have romance and relationships. Shoujo would be the manga aimed at girls and scifi would be the genre of said manga. Shoujo encompasses many different genres. And that's the way it's done in Japan. Not that hard to understand.
We make the assumption that if it isn’t female it must be male, instead of gender neutral.
This is the result of millions of years of evolution. The male dominated the social system due to larger body structure and thus physical dominance played an important part in sexual reproduction (alpha mate gets to reproduce the most). It is only inherent that males would be considered to be dominant, the alpha male would make all the decisions of the group.
I don't understand why feminists can't acknowledge that, yes, the genders are inherently different! Our reproductive organs are vastly different as well as our chemical makeup (women don't produce as much testosterone as men). 99% of the time, women are weaker than men. This doesn't mean they are inferior, just different. Women also have advantages over men, mostly in the intellectual realm.
Wow. This is sooo wrong. I don't usually call someone wrong right out in a discussion but dear lord. Any up to date history or anthropology or sociology course or book shows otherwise. Gender, no matter what society, is a construct. There are societies that existed and that still exist which have three and four genders. There were societies where the women worked the field and tended the markets and the men dealt with political business. It was considered beneath men to do any physical labor. Physical labor was women's work. Social positioning of men and women over the centuries has had little to do with their physical and biological makeup. This is only used today as a justification of inequality. "It's natural." But then there were once "scientists" who stated that all the other races of the world where inferior to that of Caucasian. Read something people. Do some research on things. 99% of the time. Where did you get that statistic? Why is it that so many men seem not to fit this always stronger than women archetype worldwide?
I don't understand why feminists can't acknowledge that, yes, the genders are inherently different! Our reproductive organs are vastly different as well as our chemical makeup (women don't produce as much testosterone as men). 99% of the time, women are weaker than men. This doesn't mean they are inferior, just different. Women also have advantages over men, mostly in the intellectual realm.
Most feminists acknowledge that men and women are physically different. Physical differences should not be a value judgment, and they should not be generalized to other areas of life. I have no problem with the statement “men on average are taller than men and are biologically predisposition to have more muscle mass†what I would have a problem with is “men are stronger than women, so men should play sportsâ€Â.
The third wave of feminism (the wave we’re in right now, the first was suffrage, the second was the 1960’s) actually puts a big emphasis on moving away from trying to make men and women identical but in putting more value on traditionally feminine tasks. For example, a modern feminist like myself might say, childrearing is very important, so important that both parents should share it equally. Celebrating what makes women women (as opposed to men) is a really interesting part of feminist thought and debate today.
I think an inherent problem with this discussion is that it lumps most feminists together. Over the last two decades feminism has exploded into a wide array of different options, philosophies, and subgroups. You have atheist feminists, and feminist church leaders. You have feminists that are against marriage and feminists who think polygamy is progressive. I encourage anyone who is interested in what feminism is actually about now verses the stereotype left over from the 1970’s to look into it. Bitch magazine’s most recent anthology is a great place to start.
As for the whole men are stronger than women issue, last time i checked i can lift almost 120 lbs with my thighs, i will totally take on your average nerd any day of the week. Thunder thigh power!
Thanks Rainbowraven and Hopallee. I wanted to point out whats wrong with water's comments but you guys did it better than I ever would. 99%?! Where did you pull that out of?
Comments
If your going to use a word, understand where is comes from but more importantly also understand that today it’s used mostly by crazy right-wing nuts to describe all women who don’t live in the kitchen. It’s genuinely better to not use the word just so you don’t sound like those idiots.
The discussion of the word shoujo is not as volatile as that of derogatory sexist and/or racial slurs, but it still comes down to one thing, you either know the definition or you don't. You can go around creating new meanings for words but then you won't be able to communicate with most people.
Feminism helped give us a lot of things that I think we all like: women in the work place, domestic violence being a crime, birth control, and premarital sex.
I don’t think we should have to disparage a whole political movement to make a point about a comic book.
Women in the work place - lead to more sexual harassment in BOTH directions.
Domestic violence being a crime - this has always been a crime.
Birth control - which lead to a rise in promiscuity among kids who were only concerned about babies and not STDs.
Premarital sex - which lead to "why buy the cow when the milk is free".
I am a firm believer in equality, which I have always thought was the main goal of feminism. I have since found out that many feminists are not interested in settling for mere equality...
My real position on feminism is much like my position on masculinism (a la 300). There are, indeed, traits of men and women which should be understood and celebrated. There are, in fact, very real political, economic, and social effects of gender-based discrimination that should be addressed. When it comes to feminism, people should be, in my opinion, far more upset about things like abstinence-only education, taking the word "vagina" out of "The Vagina Monologues", and the continued gender gap in workplace salary. And, of course, the disgusting, repugnant "moralism" of Islam as it pertains to women. We should also be concerned about falling attendance rates of men in college, widespread genital mutilation from America to Africa, and the vanishing concept of true masculinity that involves neither abuse of other human beings nor servility to them.
I think there some very stupid arguments disguised as "feminism" that are really just "being nutty". Denying an entire genre of anime exists is just as stupid as changing the spelling of "women" because it has "men" in it. One cannot advance the causes of women by denying that they exist, that they have traits which make them entirely different from men, and why--let me stress this--that is a very good thing. People who make arguments like this are not feminists; they're just selfish people who happen to be women.
If I were to invade a country in imperialist interest, take away people's freedoms, and violate my country's judicial integrity, then I'm not an American just because I live in the U.S. Just claiming to represent America wouldn't change the fact that I'm not actually looking out for America's best interests, but my own. See my point?
I'm not even going to try and aruge against your above opinions because I disagree with them so fundamentally that it would lead to a rant that no one wants to read.
But i will correct a factual error, domestic violence has not always been a crime and it is currently not a crime with legal ramifications in all countries today.
Is feminism to blame for sexual harassment or just the lascivious nature of some people?
Domestic violence, and in this case violence against women by boyfriends and husbands, has always been a crime but that doesn't mean it's always been treated as one. "She decided to be with him. It's her fault. They're married, you can't get involved in their marriage."
Is "promiscuity" the reason for the increased spread of STDs or lack of proper sexual health education?
Premarital sex... buying the cow when the milk is free... so are we to imply that all men and women get married to have sex and no other reason? So the whole population is really that shallow eh?
As for the actual topic at hand, I do think Clarrisa over reacted. Shoujo is an area of anime intended for girls. What’s frustrating about Scotts email is the assumption that sci-fi can’t be for girls.
If someone isn't anti-semitic, and they use the word "kike", who cares? It's just a word, it won't hurt you. Why choose to make it hurt you? Who cares if someone happens to use the word feminazi, fag or nigger? Did they say, non-jokingly, that women should get back in the kitchen? Did they say that homosexuals are sub-human and should be killed? Did they say that they think people with different genetics are inferior to other humans? No, they didn't say those things. So why pretend they did? If someone is a real hater, in the KKK or something, that is one story. If someone isn't, then what does it matter?
It is the year 2007. In the year 2007 many words mean something different than they did in the year 1907. Rock is a musical genre in addition to a stone of minerals. Cool is no longer just a descriptor of temperature. The word podcast is brand new. If anyone is just deciding what words mean it is the people who insist on enforcing the 1907 definitions. They are actively and irrationally fighting against the natural evolution of the living language. Words mean what most people take them to mean. For most people in the english speaking world, shojo means comics that tend to have romance, drama and feminine themes. If you don't like that, you're going to have a rough time.
Most people are not racists, sexists or anti-semites. They're just people conveying ideas using words according to their modern, widely accepted, definitions. If you insist on saying that people intended a meaning that they obviously did not, that just sucks for you. If you insist on being offended when people are not trying to offend, you're not going to live a happy life. If you somehow think that subscribing the commonly held, if indeed un-Japanese, definition of a word means that I hate females, that's just a failing of logic you're going to have to live with.
I think that Penn and Tellers' Bullshit episode on Profanity is very relevant.
Violence is violence. If someone hurts you in a way that is a crime it matters not if you are married to that person or not.
1) making babies
2) cooking my dinner
Which job are you applying for?
By definition a crime is something that is legally prohibited. Domestic violence has always been wrong but it hasn’t always been prohibited by law, thus it hasn’t always been a crime. At the founding of our country women were essentially the legal property of their husbands, and therefore had no legal right to make charges against their husbands. http://www.legacy98.org/timeline.html
May you die a lonely virgin. :-)
If you really think about it, AWO's definition of shojo is sexist. They're basically saying that some comics are meant for girls and some are meant for boys. It's no different than saying Barbie is for girls and Matchbox is for boys. I'm saying that shojo comics are comics with romance, pretty boys, etc. My definition makes no claims about who should be creating or enjoying these comics.
Take that!
Why make a new genre when we already have names for those kind of genres?
Seinen comics is a genre of comics for men but yet it includes very romantic titles like Emma. Are you going to say that Emma can't be seinen because it doesn't contain violence?
Do you choose all of your emotions? As the day goes on, do you sit and choose to be annoyed or happy or restless or hurt. If, heaven forbid, Rym died, would you choose to be sad? Choosing to be offended... That's absurd. Emotions just are. You are simply belittling the lives and experiences of people who would be offended.
Moving on, "it was just a joke," or "I didn't mean it like that," is used quite often to veil racism, sexism, homophobia and any form of hate that exists out there. You can use whatever word you want, freedom of speech and all, but using slurs and derogatory words shows that you lack a certain level of social consciousness, intelligence, and have only a cursory understanding of history at best. I would add sensitivity to and compassion for your fellow man but somehow I don't really think you'd care about those ones. Short of very smart satire, I've never seen or heard a slur or derogatory word used intelligently by anyone.
Moving back to shoujo: From the email: The thing about it is that romance and relationships are not topics exclusive to shoujo manga. And what is shoujoish? Might you have meant "girly?" Really and truly why is it so hard to admit you may not have had the best understanding of what shoujo is? Could it be ego possibly? It's not as if you have to know everything. People learn new things everyday.
I say this both as a cultural observation and because I’m familiar with some interesting research done a while back in which subjects where shown faces with a mixture of gendered features and asked to assign gender. In the experiment it took 4 female cues to over ride one male cue.
We make the assumption that if it isn’t female it must be male, instead of gender neutral. AWO’s definition is sexist but it’s not a definition of their own invention. It is a definition created by Japanese publishing companies, and Japan is a much more gender divided country than our own.
I would argue that it is impossible to give a gender-neutral definition to a genre that literally means "Girl" in Japanese.
Kike in spanish is a nick name for anyone that is called Enrique, I never new that is was an offensive slur.
I have come to the realization that there are many words that mean something in one language and not in the other. In Portuguese the word "Pinga" is a delicious alcoholic beverage. However, in most countries that speak spanish "Pinga" means dick.
I remember that it was a total cultural shock when I first came to the United States and my aunts told me that there are some words that american consider insulting, while those same words in any other country from south america are use everyday. One of those words would be "negrito". We use the word as a mean of affection. We really have no other means o terms like "african-peruvian" or "african-equadorian". But then again most of all the races in south america where under one common enemy which was Spain, so maybe that is what united us.
It truly saddens me when I see racism in USA. Because, when I was a kid and my only means of understanding USA was through TV. I considered a place where everyone was treated with the respect they deserved. Do not get me wrong USA is a great place but still I wanted to see the USA that myself as a 12 year old was hoping to see.
Ok, I went a lot of topic. But this is what happens when I favorite podcast fight each other.
Scott, I know you were seriously curious and you only made a mistake in how you asked. You know that Clarissa and the others do a lot of research into anime and they go solely by the Japanese definition of the things (with few exceptions). When you come to them using the word shoujo in your unique definition, of course they are going to get mad. It's like asking them how come the people in Sanctuary doesn't have big eyes. This doesn't mean that I think they are right for slamming you like this. But I understand where they are coming from.
I don't think they hate you. I think its more like you pushed a button this time.
I don't understand why feminists can't acknowledge that, yes, the genders are inherently different! Our reproductive organs are vastly different as well as our chemical makeup (women don't produce as much testosterone as men). 99% of the time, women are weaker than men. This doesn't mean they are inferior, just different. Women also have advantages over men, mostly in the intellectual realm.
The third wave of feminism (the wave we’re in right now, the first was suffrage, the second was the 1960’s) actually puts a big emphasis on moving away from trying to make men and women identical but in putting more value on traditionally feminine tasks. For example, a modern feminist like myself might say, childrearing is very important, so important that both parents should share it equally. Celebrating what makes women women (as opposed to men) is a really interesting part of feminist thought and debate today.
I think an inherent problem with this discussion is that it lumps most feminists together. Over the last two decades feminism has exploded into a wide array of different options, philosophies, and subgroups. You have atheist feminists, and feminist church leaders. You have feminists that are against marriage and feminists who think polygamy is progressive. I encourage anyone who is interested in what feminism is actually about now verses the stereotype left over from the 1970’s to look into it. Bitch magazine’s most recent anthology is a great place to start.
As for the whole men are stronger than women issue, last time i checked i can lift almost 120 lbs with my thighs, i will totally take on your average nerd any day of the week. Thunder thigh power!
Thanks Rainbowraven and Hopallee. I wanted to point out whats wrong with water's comments but you guys did it better than I ever would. 99%?! Where did you pull that out of?