Random Grammar Questions

HungryJoe

I saw a headline in the paper this morning that said "An Historic Meeting. . . " When did we start using "an" as an article for hard consonants? When I was in school, they told us "a" was the article to put in front of hard consonants.

When did people start using B.C.E. and C.E.? When will we go back to B.C. and A.D.? Don't explain the p.c.-ness of it to me. I understand it. I just don't like the change.

Didn't we always use commas for a list right up until the "and" e.g., "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"? Now I often see constructions like "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly". This is most often true of law firms, like "Dewey, Cheatham and Howe" instead of "Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe". Which is correct?

Apreche

I saw a headline in the paper this morning that said "An Historic Meeting. . . " When did we start using "an" as an article for hard consonants? When I was in school, they told us "a" was the article to put in front of hard consonants.

I also disagreed with this one when I started seeing it, but now I'm warming up to it. The reason we have a and an is because of speaking. It is hard to say, and unpleasant to hear, someone say "a apple" or "an book". Historic is a word where most people barely say the h. It is both easier to say, and more pleasant to hear, an historic. So while this goes against the rule of a and an that we were all taught in school, I'm willing to make one more exception. It's not like the English language doesn't have a zillion exceptions already.

When did people start using B.C.E. and C.E.? When will we go back to B.C. and A.D.? Don't explain the p.c.-ness of it to me. I understand it. I just don't like the change.

I haven't noticed an increase usage of BCE/CD as opposed to BC/AD. Maybe I would if I watched television? Also, I'm the last person who would be a fan of being politically correct, but I like BCE/CD more than BC/AD, even if only to piss of religious folk. If you want, we can use the Hebrew year which is 5767.

Didn't we always use commas for a list right up until the "and" e.g., "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"? Now I often see constructions like "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly". This is most often true of law firms, like "Dewey, Cheatham and Howe" instead of "Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe". Which is correct?

I was taught the same thing in school as you were. I always used the comma before the and. However, grammatical thinking has changed and it seems now that the final comma is redundant because the and serves the same purpose. I agree with this thinking as it also makes the sentence look nicer in print.

Just like computing technology, grammar changes quite rapidly. You have to keep up with the times and just go along with the changes. If you fight against the flow of the river, you'll only get tired.

Josh Bytes

If there isn't already there should be a "How to not suck at writing" podcast in the near future.

HungryJoe

Just like computing technology, grammar changes quite rapidly. You have to keep up with the times and just go along with the changes. If you fight against the flow of the river, you'll only get tired.

It's not that I fear change, but if there must be change, I'd appreciate getting a memo.

Jason

The problem with the new comma usage is that it inadvertently groups items that shouldn't be.

Example: He was charged with first-degree murder, possession of marijuana and child pornography.

In this instance, he was not charged with possession of child pornography, though possession becomes the operative noun with the lack of the final comma. He was charged with producing child pornography, which is an entirely different charge.

Always, always, always use the final list comma. The only reason why it has been left out is laziness, and if you are too lazy to use one character, then you are too lazy to be alive. Die in a fire.

BC/AD are definitely the way to go. Whether you like it or not, religion is a part of our history and culture. Using these labels does not mean you have to subscribe to a religion, any more than using the words Wednesday, Thursday, Jupiter, Saturn, or the phrase "oh my god." The BCE/CD dynamic is just modern bra-burning. People will get over it.

I'm going to ignore the "an h" argument, because Scott speaks truth.

Rym

An Historic Meeting. . .

This is common in Britain and former British dependencies where the "H" is often swallowed. Generally, you use "a" if the speaker would pronounce the "H" and "an" if the speaker would not. If the speaker's accent is unknown, "a" is (generally) to be used in the United States and is grammatically correct, although it is perfectly acceptable to use "an." This is a case where a writing rule is based entirely on a pronunciation issue.

Recently, American media have started using the British pronunciation and spelling more and more in an attempt to appear more literate, due to the persistent perception here that British accents imply intelligence.

When did people start using B.C.E. and C.E.?

I very rarely if ever see B.C.E. and C.E. being used, but that might just be a consequence of the media I consume.

"The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"? Now I often see constructions like "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly". This is most often true of law firms, like "Dewey, Cheatham and Howe" instead of "Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe". Which is correct?

Retaining the comma is correct in writing. Titles and signs often can get away with altered grammar for stylistic reasons (the comma adds clutter), but that comma is moderately important to the flow of longer texts and has by no means been deprecated. Leaving it out is more often a sign of sloppy writing than of intentional grammatical evolution.

Apreche

I'm going to do some research on that final comma. I always used it, and I only stopped because I heard somewhere (it might have been nothing) that it had been deprecated. I just might start using it again.

Apreche

Learn something new every day. From now on I will be careful to pay attention to the commas to avoid ambiguity. I will also use semicolons for long or complex lists.

RainbowRaven

When did people start using B.C.E. and C.E.? When will we go back to B.C. and A.D.? Don't explain the p.c.-ness of it to me. I understand it. I just don't like the change.

It was a surprise to me. We used B.C. and A.D. in grade school but in a current history class that I am taking at my university, the history books and the professor uses B.C.E and C.E. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire history department uses these now. I think it's a change for the better when it comes to viewing history in a more thorough and neutral light, but initially I was confused.

Sail

When did people start using B.C.E. and C.E.?

I was taught in middle school that CE and BCE were what we should use because they were more "politically correct". I think it's just that they never stuck after they were created because people were more used to AD and BC. And besides, political correctness is bullshit.

navelfluff

It was a surprise to me. We used B.C. and A.D. in grade school but in a current history class that I am taking at my university, the history books and the professor uses B.C.E and C.E. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire history department uses these now. I think it's a change for the better when it comes to viewing history in a more thorough and neutral light, but initially I was confused.

As an adult foreigner this is completely new to me. What are B.C.E. and C.E. abbreviations for?

Rym

As an adult foreigner this is completely new to me. What are B.C.E. and C.E. abbreviations for?

B.C.E. - Before the Common Era
C.E. - Common Era

HungryJoe

Here's another - When did we abandon the old state abbreviations like "Mass.", "Minn.", "Nev.", Fla.", Ill.", and so forth to go to two letter abbreviations for all states?

I understand how that might be more helpful and it has some comforting uniformity, but, once again, I didn't get the memo. All of a sudden, my student loan bills were coming from Harrisburg, PA instead of Harrisburg, Penn.

Rym

Here's another - When did we abandon the old state abbreviations like "Mass.", "Minn.", "Nev.", Fla.", Ill.", and so forth to go to two letter abbreviations for all states?

I was taught the 2 letter standard in first grade, so it was a while ago. ^_~

Apreche

I've always used the two letter state abbreviations. If you're going to blame anyone for it, blame the post office.

Jason

HungryJoe: We haven't, at least not altogether. Associated Press style (used in virtually all newspapers, which means it's the right way to do things ^.~)still mandates their longer versions because certain idiots can't tell MA from MN from ME from MO.

Apreche

MA - Massachusetts
MN - Minnesota
ME - Maine
MO - Missouri

It's not hard people.

Man will I look like a tool if I got one wrong...

TheWhaleShark

I could potentially see someone thinking that MN was Maine, but generally, the abbreviations are pretty easy. I do admit, though, that I can't always remember what the abbreviation for a given state is. If I see the abbreviation, I can figure out the state, but if I see the state name, I can't always figure out the abbreviation.

HungryJoe

Here's another - When did we abandon the old state abbreviations like "Mass.", "Minn.", "Nev.", Fla.", Ill.", and so forth to go to two letter abbreviations for all states?

I was taught the 2 letter standard in first grade, so it was a while ago. ^_~

Well aren't we all young and with-our-lives-in-front-of-us and blah blah blah? When I was in first grade, we didn't even have first grade yet.

Apreche

Here's another - When did we abandon the old state abbreviations like "Mass.", "Minn.", "Nev.", Fla.", Ill.", and so forth to go to two letter abbreviations for all states?

I was taught the 2 letter standard in first grade, so it was a while ago. ^_~

Well aren't we all young and with-our-lives-in-front-of-us and blah blah blah? WhenIwas in first grade, we didn't evenhavefirst grade yet.

You'll just have to go back and re-take it.

Andrew

WhenIwas in first grade, we didn't evenhavefirst grade yet.

Isn't that when you served as a paige for your local Knight?

HungryJoe

WhenIwas in first grade, we didn't evenhavefirst grade yet.

Isn't that when you served as a Paige for your local Knight?

I was one of the people scrounging in crap. Only the posh kids were pages.

And what's with this Arizona State thing? When did it stop being a Territory? Why don't people ever tell me these things?

Jason

Isn't that when you served as a Paige for your local Knight?

It was when we knew the rules of capitalization. XD

TheWhaleShark

Here's another - When did we abandon the old state abbreviations like "Mass.", "Minn.", "Nev.", Fla.", Ill.", and so forth to go to two letter abbreviations for all states?

I was taught the 2 letter standard in first grade, so it was a while ago. ^_~

Well aren't we all young and with-our-lives-in-front-of-us and blah blah blah? WhenIwas in first grade, we didn't evenhavefirst grade yet.

Well, to your credit, no tribes had developed numbers at that point, so you can't really be blamed for it.

Andrew

It was when we knew the rules of capitalization. XD

mY SPELL CHECKER WAS UPSET AT ME FOR HAVING IT LOWERCASE. i BLINDLY CHANGED IT. dO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT jASON?

Jason

Much love, brotha. (Faux gang sign here.)

Andrew

And what's with this ArizonaStatething? When did it stop being a Territory? Why don't people evertellme these things?

You must have been too busy completing the First Transcontinental Railroad.

HungryJoe

Ya know - the funny thing about those old pics. It wasn't just the film. The world itself was actually black and white until about 1938.

Jason

WHAT? Joe is Chinese!?

I just shat myself over that picture.

HungryJoe

I very rarely if ever see B.C.E. and C.E. being used, but that might just be a consequence of the media I consume.

I have to use this dichotomy all the time, especially at tax time when I have to figure out my age.

When I was really young, we had another word for "B.C." We called it "now."

Mamath

Always, always, always use the final list comma. The only reason why it has been left out is laziness, and if you are too lazy to use one character, then you are too lazy to be alive. Die in a fire.

Thank you, sir! Admittedly we were deliberately taught NOT to do that in school. WTF. I still use it when it makes groups hard to differentiate though. Funnily enough no senior high school teachers or university lecturers have ever had a problem with that.

It wasn't just the film. The world itself wasactuallyblack and white until about 1938.

Calvin and Hobbes?