According to your reasoning as to what makes a Shonen a Shonen Fighting series, Death Note is VERY much a Shonen Fighting. With the "Let me do this amazing thing then explain it", and focusing on the battles, and what it does to the characters. The fights in Naruto happen for a reason, and advance the plot/characters in ways 'Wacky Ninja School' never could.
If you checked out the fight between Shikamaru and Temari in Naruto, that is the best example of reasonable explanations for techniques. Pretty much anything with Shikamaru is unlike the traditional "Let me use my inner power that I couldn't before", etc.
Surprised no one brought this up. Concerning the comment on shonen fighting lacking choreography.
Funny you mentioned Cowboy Bebop as an example of nice fighting too.
Hey, while it's not original, you can't deny that it's in there. ^_-
According to your reasoning as to what makes a Shonen a Shonen Fighting series, Death Note is VERY much a Shonen Fighting. With the "Let me do this amazing thing then explain it", and focusing on the battles, and what it does to the characters.
Umm, there is a very fundamental and obvious difference between Death Note and something like Naruto that was mentioned in the show. Remember when Rym was talking about at the anime club when someone told him he would be astounded by how the characters got out of their situation? The way it was actually solved was in a typical shonen fighting way, where some new skill is introduced just because it's the easy way out. Rym was expecting it to turn out the Death Note way, where the characters are just way smarter than you and come up with an actually clever plan.
The fights in Naruto happen for a reason, and advance the plot/characters in ways 'Wacky Ninja School' never could.
(How do I get quoting to work..? XD)
Posted by Sail: Rym was expecting it to turn out the Death Note way, where the characters are just way smarter than you and actually come up with an amazing plan.
Which is why I mentioned the Shikamaru fight with Temari.
I just scanned these three pages from the November 2006 issue of domestic Shonen Jump.
Shikamaru is the male character with the vest, and Temari is the female with the fan.
This page explains the situation and Shikamaru's limits of Shadow Posession:
Shikamaru used his vest as a parachute, weighted by his kunai and hurled it into the air while Temari was distracted.
Used the extra shadow provided by the parachute to gain an extra distance for his Shadow Posession.
Making the parachute seem like his real plan, he unleashes his actual plan, which was to distract her further with the parachute, and use the tunnel created earlier by Naruto and Neji.
Pretty smart, and I didn't expect it. And this was well within the feasible realm of the setting and not just pulled out of his ass.
Posted by: Sail Are you then denying the existence of filler?
Absolutely. Not sure about other fans, but I like to stick with the manga, where the meat of the series is the plot.
Just click "quote" at the top-right of any post you want to quote.
But how often do those sorts of fights in Naruto actually happen? Certainly, not most of the time. By the way, I have no knowledge of Naruto plot past that forest challenge part. But I do know that there was none of that in the amount that I read.
I think every fight Shikamaru has is something that Scrym would like, because they are all thought out fights. They aren't just stronger person wins, but rather strategic fights. I think this is mostly because he really only has one ability, so due to that limitedness of his abilities there needs to be more thought put into how the fight is to progress and end.
And I think that is the problem with Shonen fighting shows as I see it, is that there isn't enough thought put into the fighting. Because when you see fights like Shikamaru's or some of the stuff in Death Note, you can see that when something is thought out and done in a planned and strategic manner, its far more satisfying then two characters beating the crap out of each other until one goes super (insert character/race/monster/ability here.)
The fighting in Avatar works like that, but it isn't explained as they go along, because they don't have to. When they started they established the rules of bending as the show moved along. No new technique is never introduced without it being explained within the context of the rules (ie: Toph's "seeing" is explained both visually, but also shown before hand with the badger moles a few episodes prior.) So because rules and techniques of bending and the world are explained, they are free to have the great choreographed fights they have in the show without having to stop and explain what is going on.
Which I guess leads me to point out (/ realize as I type this) that shonen shows do tend to set rules, but they amend them constantly over time as they see fit in order to move fights along when they get stuck, or in order to do something "cool" and "unexpected."
(Thank ya. Figured out I had to put it in HTML, though X_X)
But how often do those sorts of fights in Naruto actually happen? Certainly, not most of the time.
Yea, that is true. Only the fights involving Shikamaru tend to turn out this way, but plenty of other ones have amazing 'this is how I did it' situations. While they may be a little far-fetched, you obviously don't expect it then, do ya? =P
Just trying to show that Naruto isn't just the same stuff over and over.
Shonen shows do tend to set rules, but they amend them constantly over time as they see fit in order to move fights along when they get stuck, or in order to do something "cool" and "unexpected."
This is so true. Being an avid fan of Dragon Ball, I can admit that after Super Saiyan 2, it got just a little crazy. =P But, eh, it gives me a rush every time I see the hero I've been following overcome these odds. Sure you kinda know it'll happen, but it's still amazing seeing them give it their all to do it. I mean, who DOESN'T like some "WA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA" followed by heads exploding?
The point is that Death Note contains duels of wits. They use normal every day logic. The only made up stuff is the Death Note, and the rules of the Death Note. But they lay down the rules of the Death Note, and keep the consistent throughout the show. Also, the duels of wits in Death Note take what, a few pages each?
The difference in Naruto is that they just pick the result they want, and then they make up an explanation. Shadow technique whatever, it's just made up as they go along. And it takes way too many pages to do that stuff.
As for choreography, yes shonen fighting anime have animated fighting from time to time but it's usually in bursts. There'll be a 5 episode fight going on, and maybe for about a minute each episode when someone actually decides to execute a technique of some sort, you will see some choreographed animated fighting. In Cowboy Bebop its boom, fight, boom done. The fights just explode onto the screen, and are in themselves amazing to watch. See grenade kicking in the last episode or the teddy bomber duel for more examples.
The point is that Death Note contains duels of wits. They use normal every day logic. The only made up stuff is the Death Note, and the rules of the Death Note. But they lay down the rules of the Death Note, and keep the consistent throughout the show. Also, the duels of wits in Death Note take what, a few pages each?
You should know that some of them take MUCH longer than a few pages, Scott. Of course, that doesn't mean they DRAG ON like typical Shounen Fighting shows do.
Still, my friend showed me some of the later episodes of Naruto (the ones where they are in the forest, trying to get back Sasuke from the 4 Sound Ninjas), and they actually moved at a pace I can appreciate. Every fight lasted 1 episode, and at most, 2.
Still, my friend showed me some of the later episodes of Naruto (the ones where they are in the forest, trying to get back Sasuke from the 4 Sound Ninjas), and they actually moved at a pace I can appreciate. Every fight lasted 1 episode, and at most, 2.
A fight should at most be part of an episode, not an entire episode. Excuses can only be made for the climactic finale.
Well the reason most fights generally seem to last longer then they should is they tend to put a lot of character development into them, usually in the form of flash backs about one or both characters, and that can really drag out the fights.
Shonen Fighting Shows are what turned me off anime when I was first introduced to it. I didn't realise there were anime like Ghost in the Shell and Evangelion (although the latter seemed to drag quite a bit, I did like the art and fighting scenes), till highschool when they started showing some on TV and also when my friend brought a DVD over.
Posted By: AprecheA fight should at most be part of an episode, not an entire episode. Excuses can only be made for the climactic finale.
Well, as far as I can remember, there were plenty of plot-points within the fighting episodes themselves.I don't consider "oh mans, he has a secret technique!" to be a plot point.
Ugh, Scott. Now that's being incredibly ignorant. I can't vouch for the rest of the series, but in THESE few episodes, they covered many more plot-points than just "omg, secret technique!!".
I'm not saying that those episodes were anything deep or thought-provoking, but they were still fun to watch and wasn't incredibly stupid like the rest of the show.
Is there any way to boil the whole series down to a list of stuff worth watching? Even if I wont learn everything I think Naruto is kind of interesting.
Is there any way to boil the whole series down to a list of stuff worth watching? Even if I wont learn everything I think Naruto is kind of interesting.
Remove all fillers and only watch the first and last ep of a fighting period. Or watch the recaps?
Is there any way to boil the whole series down to a list of stuff worth watching? Even if I wont learn everything I think Naruto is kind of interesting.
I'll get back to you on that. My friends have been fairly successful at showing me only the best parts of Naruto, so I'll ask them about your question.
The only real problem I have with series like Naruto is the mentality of scanlators to be the 15th group translating that series while fantastic series that have yet to be licensed by an american company, such as Black Lagoon, are left by the wayside. And anyone who wants to call me a pirate can do so, but should go try and argue with the 290 volumes of manga I have upstairs.
The only real problem I have with series like Naruto is the mentality of scanlators to be the 15th group translating that series while fantastic series that have yet to be licensed by an american company, such as Black Lagoon, are left by the wayside. And anyone who wants to call me a pirate can do so, but should go try and argue with the 290 volumes of manga I have upstairs.
Scott, have you ever heard of a series called Black Cat? It is a Shonen fighting show, but it is very much like Cowboy Bebop in some of it's stylings (except weirder) and fights don't last for more than about two chapters at the most (the manga at least, I can't speak for the anime as I haven't seen it).
As far as shounen fighting shows go, the only one that I was ever really interested in was Bleach. I started watching it when the fansubs first started coming out and it wasn't such a giant thing yet, so I didn't really know that what I was getting into was going to be shounen fighting. After it became apparent that that's what it was, I was too interested in the characters and style of the series to stop. I finally quit the series after the Soul Society arc, when the anime got into a bit of filler territory. It felt like a chore to get through those episodes, so I just stopped around episode 69 or so. By the time the series got out of filler mode, I was no longer interested in going back to it. And that's fine by me; I got the enjoyment I wanted out of the series, and there are other good things to watch.
I tried Naruto, and I liked some of the bits of it, but never really the whole. The character of Naruto himself was a big strike against the series; rash, idiotic characters who almost always come out on top despite their idiocy annoy me to no end. Kakashi, on the other hand, was a great character and watching episodes in which he was a bigger focus were always at least moderately entertaining. It wasn't until episode 30-something that I finally gave up, and I felt like I should have quit sooner.
I started reading Naruto as of recently and I have to say, its not the garbage that I thought it was. I always saw it as serious tripe because of the kind of fans that it produced but the manga isnt so bad. Of course I'm only in volume two so I can't really say much for the entire series but atleast the first two volumes arent so bad. The anime is a horse of a different color.
I really like the Naruto manga, but I'm extremely disappointed in the anime. For a while the anime was pretty good up until they got to the filler arc. Even now that shippuden is out, they still managed to stick some filler material in there. They also completely skipped Kakashi's arc which was the kicker for me. I pretty much stopped watching the anime after that and just stuck to the manga.
What a noticed about Naruto, is that everyone is like a one trick pony. They talk about how someone got fooled and instead of using there surprise of attack, it's more like surprise of talk. Then Narutard will end up using his clone thing, the bad guy get's surprised and then it's another 20 episodes of the same sub-plot.
Comments
If you checked out the fight between Shikamaru and Temari in Naruto, that is the best example of reasonable explanations for techniques. Pretty much anything with Shikamaru is unlike the traditional "Let me use my inner power that I couldn't before", etc.
Surprised no one brought this up. Concerning the comment on shonen fighting lacking choreography.
Funny you mentioned Cowboy Bebop as an example of nice fighting too.
Hey, while it's not original, you can't deny that it's in there. ^_-
Posted by Sail: Rym was expecting it to turn out the Death Note way, where the characters are just way smarter than you and actually come up with an amazing plan.
Which is why I mentioned the Shikamaru fight with Temari.
I just scanned these three pages from the November 2006 issue of domestic Shonen Jump.
Shikamaru is the male character with the vest, and Temari is the female with the fan.
This page explains the situation and Shikamaru's limits of Shadow Posession:
Shikamaru used his vest as a parachute, weighted by his kunai and hurled it into the air while Temari was distracted.
Used the extra shadow provided by the parachute to gain an extra distance for his Shadow Posession.
Making the parachute seem like his real plan, he unleashes his actual plan, which was to distract her further with the parachute, and use the tunnel created earlier by Naruto and Neji.
Pretty smart, and I didn't expect it. And this was well within the feasible realm of the setting and not just pulled out of his ass.
Posted by: Sail Are you then denying the existence of filler?
Absolutely. Not sure about other fans, but I like to stick with the manga, where the meat of the series is the plot.
But how often do those sorts of fights in Naruto actually happen? Certainly, not most of the time. By the way, I have no knowledge of Naruto plot past that forest challenge part. But I do know that there was none of that in the amount that I read.
And I think that is the problem with Shonen fighting shows as I see it, is that there isn't enough thought put into the fighting. Because when you see fights like Shikamaru's or some of the stuff in Death Note, you can see that when something is thought out and done in a planned and strategic manner, its far more satisfying then two characters beating the crap out of each other until one goes super (insert character/race/monster/ability here.)
The fighting in Avatar works like that, but it isn't explained as they go along, because they don't have to. When they started they established the rules of bending as the show moved along. No new technique is never introduced without it being explained within the context of the rules (ie: Toph's "seeing" is explained both visually, but also shown before hand with the badger moles a few episodes prior.) So because rules and techniques of bending and the world are explained, they are free to have the great choreographed fights they have in the show without having to stop and explain what is going on.
Which I guess leads me to point out (/ realize as I type this) that shonen shows do tend to set rules, but they amend them constantly over time as they see fit in order to move fights along when they get stuck, or in order to do something "cool" and "unexpected."
Just trying to show that Naruto isn't just the same stuff over and over. This is so true. Being an avid fan of Dragon Ball, I can admit that after Super Saiyan 2, it got just a little crazy. =P
But, eh, it gives me a rush every time I see the hero I've been following overcome these odds. Sure you kinda know it'll happen, but it's still amazing seeing them give it their all to do it. I mean, who DOESN'T like some "WA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA" followed by heads exploding?
The difference in Naruto is that they just pick the result they want, and then they make up an explanation. Shadow technique whatever, it's just made up as they go along. And it takes way too many pages to do that stuff.
As for choreography, yes shonen fighting anime have animated fighting from time to time but it's usually in bursts. There'll be a 5 episode fight going on, and maybe for about a minute each episode when someone actually decides to execute a technique of some sort, you will see some choreographed animated fighting. In Cowboy Bebop its boom, fight, boom done. The fights just explode onto the screen, and are in themselves amazing to watch. See grenade kicking in the last episode or the teddy bomber duel for more examples.
Still, my friend showed me some of the later episodes of Naruto (the ones where they are in the forest, trying to get back Sasuke from the 4 Sound Ninjas), and they actually moved at a pace I can appreciate. Every fight lasted 1 episode, and at most, 2.
I'm not saying that those episodes were anything deep or thought-provoking, but they were still fun to watch and wasn't incredibly stupid like the rest of the show.
I tried Naruto, and I liked some of the bits of it, but never really the whole. The character of Naruto himself was a big strike against the series; rash, idiotic characters who almost always come out on top despite their idiocy annoy me to no end. Kakashi, on the other hand, was a great character and watching episodes in which he was a bigger focus were always at least moderately entertaining. It wasn't until episode 30-something that I finally gave up, and I felt like I should have quit sooner.