Pope Criticizes Atheism. (wow, so surprising!)

Cremlian

Pope Criticizes Atheism

Big surprise... Dark Lord....

Sail

I don't think there's really anything to say about this...

Reimu

I think it's a few decades too late for the old "godless communists" routine.

onewild

Well he is hardly going to come and say "Atheism, what a top idea"

Omnutia

Are we talking just people who happen to not believe in god or people who insist that gods cant exist?
Well anyway, while religion tends to keep a firmer hold on society (simply my observation) you can't justify war in the name of the great Ath. I suppose this place isn't a good place to discuss this kind of thing, we should go invade some Cristian fundamentalist forum and start a flame crusade.

Page

I"d say you can justify a war in the name of Atheism, though the tag line for it would be something along the lines of "freeing the people's minds from the control of the cult" of course it'd be a stretch, but not that far of a one if you get some die hards all in the same room together

kage_rod

Pope Benedict XVI strongly criticized atheism in a major document released Friday, saying it had led to some of the "greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice" ever known.

...Yet, many serial killers use God as a reason to kill people... and I know many atheists who are more moral than some religious people! >< Like, myself. I'm an atheist (I don't believe there is a God, though I never push my beliefs upon others. I always force myself to be patient and calm for others and I like to try and help others. I know some people who are completely lazy, lie, cheat, steal, whatever is their main vice, and they're Christians or Catholics or whatever. I knew one who is Jewish and is a complete slut, lies, and does drugs... So, what's the connection between religions and morals, honestly?

Omnutia

I think what is needed is some statistical analysis all the wrong things of the world by anyones definition and look at the correlation with religion. I doubt it will be very high.

Jason

I think what is needed is some statistical analysis all the wrong things of the world by anyones definition and look at the correlation with religion. I doubt it will be very high.

Are you kidding?

Omnutia

For the layman: "there is probably no relation between religion and badness of deeds done", religion is not all good or all bad, neither is non-religion, but them agnostics have got that mean look about them.

Sail

Skeptoid: Who Kills More, Religion or Atheism?

In summary, the winner of these debates is the one who can convince the other that the big 20th century genocidal maniacs were motivated either by religion or by a desire to destroy religion. The entire debate is the logical fallacy of the excluded middle.
...
And that truth, as I've said time and time again, is that people are people. No matter what segment of society you look at, you'll find good people and you'll find bad people. You'll even find, as has been said, that the line between good and evil cuts through every human heart. Certainly there are people in the news who kill in the name of religion, but just because they kill in the name of religion doesn't really mean they kill because of religion. The Islamic militants who cut off Nick Berg's head are not nice men who would have otherwise been his best friend, if it weren't for their religious convictions forcing them into this grievous act. They are base murderers, and they should be punished accordingly, I don't care whether they go to church or not. Killers don't really kill because of their religion. Neither does a lack of religious convictions cause one to run wild in the streets with a bloody axe and a torch. Religion is a convenient banner for many to carry, but there are plenty of other banners available as well, and if it wasn't religion, they'd do their deeds under some other justification, if they care to even have one. The real reason they do their evil deeds is that they're human. Humans are very smart, very capable; and when we want something, we generally find some way to get it, even if that means killing someone or committing genocide.
...
So I am no longer going to participate in the childish debate of what religion has killed more people in history, because it doesn't matter. The way I see it, you might as well debate what color underpants are worn by the largest number of killers, and try to draw a causal relationship there as well. Religion does not cause you to kill people, and it certainly doesn't prevent you from killing people. Let's stop pretending that it does either.

I had always taken the Dawkins argument of religion being the cause of more death before I heard this podcast the other day. This guy makes a good point, and I can't help but agree with him.

Omnutia

Then all you have to measure is the people who are swung by religion or atheism. Where are the most people who would otherwise be normal if it weren't for their beliefs?

Sail

Then all you have to measure is the people who are swung by religion or atheism. Where are the most people who would otherwise be normal if it weren't for their beliefs?

You didn't read my excerpt. People are people, and the same people who do horrific things in the name of religion would still do those things if religion didn't exist. They would just do them under a different arbitrary banner. Being "swayed by religion" only means that the person found a justification for their act that they would have found anyway even if there was no religion.

aresef

Hitler was a Catholic. Pope Benedict was a Hitler Youth back in the day. Whoops.

Cremlian

Religion is a great excuse for killing people though. Not to mention believing there is a afterlife makes this life worth less to you in terms of the punishment you will receive here or the fact that the horrible crime you commit (if you feel it has been justified by your religion or approved of) can be written off by the rest of the population as you being a good "insert religion here" instead of a horrible killer. (in any time someone gets burned for being a witch or heresy)

Rym

People are people, and the same people who do horrific things in the name of religion would still do those things if religion didn't exist.

I doubt as many would suicide bomb, however. Not none, but fewer.

Alex

Pope Benedict was a Hitler Youth back in the day.

I realize this is tangential, but I hate this particular statement being used as any kind of argument. Hitler Youth membership became mandatory in the late 1930s; if you grew up in Germany in that period, you were enrolled. It says nothing either way about his politics.

kage_rod

Pope Benedict was a Hitler Youth back in the day.

I realize this is tangential, but I hate this particular statement being used as any kind of argument. Hitler Youth membership became mandatory in the late 1930s; if you grew up in Germany in that period, you were enrolled. It says nothing either way about his politics.

Same with the SS. Those who were picked/joined, didn't necessarily have the same beliefs; it was simply a good place to be. Protected, fairly safe, high in power. And even more so in the actual Nazi army.

HMTKSteve

I think framing the argument as "who kills more, religion or atheism" is a narrow argument when the true argument should be: "Who kills more, people with strong beliefs or people without them?"

It is not religion per se that causes war and death but the deeply held belief of a group that causes such things. Religion is simply the most obvious expression of this.

You would likely find an equivalent ratio if the question were: "who causes more trouble at political rallies, political extremists or people who don't give a shit?"

Apreche

"Who kills more, people with strong beliefs or people without them?"

It's not the strength of the belief that matters, but how close the beliefs are to reality.
Let us assume that everyone has good intentions. They honestly believe that they are doing good and that their actions make the world better. Someone who has beliefs about the world that closely match reality will make very good decisions and achieve the desired results. Someone who has beliefs that are further away from reality will have much worse results.

Just to get the point across more clearly, I will give an example. How about those crazy people who believe you don't have to pay income tax in Ohio. They have a belief, that somehow Ohio isn't a state, and you can't be taxed there. However, that belief does not match reality. The reality is that you do have to pay tax there. These people do not file their taxes, and of course they get in trouble for tax evasion.

I have met many people in my life who believe the world should, or does, work in a way that it does not. These people often make decisions as if the world works in the way they think it does, or should. In the end, they almost always end up with consequences or results they did not intend or foresee, and they rarely achieve their goals. Often their actions are harmful to themselves and others, intentionally or not.

This is why religion is dangerous. You have people making decisions and taking actions in the real world because they believe the result of their actions will be heaven, hell, or whatever. Their decision making process is based on false information, and thus they are not well equipped to make good decisions. These actions usually have a variety of real-world consequences ranging from a few wasted hours on Sunday to a murderous crusade. Atheists, no matter how strong their atheism is, are much less likely to act in ways with negative real world consequences because they make decisions based on reality. I submit the incredibly low percentage of atheists in jail as evidence.

HMTKSteve

Religion is just the "weird view of the world" that is held by the largest majority of people.

As to your "I submit the incredibly low percentage of atheists in jail as evidence." argument I call that false. I think the reason people "find religion" in jail is because it looks good when you go to the parole board. I further back this argument based on the fact that many non-smokers become smokers while in the US Army because they US Army allows a nearly unlimited amount of "smoke breaks" but no "health breaks".

"Who kills more, people with strong misguided beliefs or people without them?" <- I have amended my quote.

Apreche

Religion is just the "weird view of the world" that is held by the largest majority of people.

As to your "I submit the incredibly low percentage of atheists in jail as evidence." argument I call that false. I think the reason people "find religion" in jail is because it looks good when you go to the parole board. I further back this argument based on the fact that many non-smokers become smokers while in the US Army because they US Army allows a nearly unlimited amount of "smoke breaks" but no "health breaks".

"Who kills more, people with strong misguided beliefs or people without them?" <- I have amended my quote.</p>

There is indeed a lot of finding god in prison. However, go to a prison sign in, and those people would have identified themselves as some religion upon entering the prison. When they say they find god, it's just that they decide to become more observant of their faith. Do you seriously think someone who is atheist goes to prison and changes their mind?

Zeehat

Do you seriously think someone who is atheist goes to prison and changes their mind?

They may, for an easy way out. Psychologically anyways, that they are "forgiven" for the crime they committed. However, this may not be what they truly believe, and they are putting on an act.

spiritfiend

Do you seriously think someone who is atheist goes to prison and changes their mind?

Malcolm X?

kage_rod

...Do people even write down their religion when sent to jail?

Ilmarinen

I submit the incredibly low percentage of atheists in jail as evidence.

Causation vs. Correlation. You seem to forget that atheists are an incredibly small percentage of the population, and are going to occupy a similarly small percentage of the population in jail.

Apreche

Causation vs. Correlation. You seem to forget that atheists are an incredibly small percentage of the population, and are going to occupy a similarly small percentage of the population in jail.

Um, no. It's not just that a small percentage of the people in jail are atheists. It's that the percentage of people in prison who are atheists is much lower than the percentage of the general population that is atheist. I forget the exact percentages, but I'm sure a Google search will find it.

Ilmarinen

Causation vs. Correlation. You seem to forget that atheists are an incredibly small percentage of the population, and are going to occupy a similarly small percentage of the population in jail.

Um, no. It's not just that a small percentage of the people in jail are atheists. It's that the percentage of people in prison who are atheists is much lower than the percentage of the general population that is atheist. I forget the exact percentages, but I'm sure a Google search will find it.

This data puts the number of atheists from between .2% and 20% of the population in prison. This seems to match up well with data I've seen for the U.S., which is normally put at around 0.5%-5% of the total population.

Apreche

This dataputs the number of atheists from between .2% and 20% of the population in prison. This seems to match up well with data I've seen for the U.S., which is normally put at around 0.5%-5% of the total population.

How is it between .2 and 20? Looks like .2 to me.

Ilmarinen

This dataputs the number of atheists from between .2% and 20% of the population in prison. This seems to match up well with data I've seen for the U.S., which is normally put at around 0.5%-5% of the total population.

How is it between .2 and 20? Looks like .2 to me.

The Unknown/No Answer group take up 20% of the population surveyed.

Apreche

The Unknown/No Answer group take up 20% of the population surveyed.

That's not the same as someone who logically comes to the conclusion that no, there is no god. Someone who declares themselves to be atheist, is much more likely to be skeptical and have evidence and reality based thinking. Someone who is unknown or has no answer, is less likely to be someone with this kind of rationality.