GeekNights 071217 - Technology in Education

Rym

Tonight on GeekNights, we discuss the use of technology in education. In the news, we have a possibly fallacious but certainly relevant Firefox story, and a warning about Dual_EC_DRBG from Bruce Schneier.

Scott's Thing - Star Wars Toys that Should have Been
Rym's Thing - Dagen H

MrRoboto

The Star Wars Toys remind me of the www.JesusChristSuperStore.net ones, those were good times

For those of you who don't know about them:


Allah

"He who may not be shown"

Figure size - 7.5cm standing

Price - TBC



Jesus

"the father, the son, and the bad motherf..."

includes Ninja-Messiah throwing nails

Death Killer-Cross pump action over-under shotgun

Figure size - 7.5cm standing

Price - TBC

Are two of my favorites. There are more, but I don't have a link since the page was closed, you can probably get them at the Way Back Machine site

Airpi

Aw mans, this brings me back to some memories. I remember in high school we had a librarian who thew an incredible fit when someone, in her words, "deleted the internet." He had moved the IE icon from the desktop into a folder somewhere. I laughed it off then, but looking back now, as an education major and all, I'm horrified that she still has a job there.

We had some fun with the people that kept the network up though. They would come in, see that someone had put some games on the network, and decide that the only way to stop us was to delete everything. Then the next day we would be back to playing AQ2 and Shadow Armada during study hall, and everyone with work saved there was screwed. Good times.

Usagimaru

I see many of the things that you guys talked about in the show every day at my high school. Pretty much every person in our tech department needs to be fired right now.
Their first mistake of the year was to switch to MS Office 2008, and not give a mandatory seminar and on how to use it. The program is so different than Office 2003, that the teachers have no idea how to save things in the right format, or how to get around in it. This leads to people not giving a shit about what the teachers say, because they don't know how to work it.
Their second mistake of the year was centralizing the tech department. Which means that we now don't have a tech in our school to fix any of the numerous problems that have been happening during the year.
Which brings me to the third mistake, in that our school purchased Mac Servers. Which wouldn't be a problem...if we were using Mac computers at our school. If too many people log in at once, the servers crash and nobody can get it, and if they are in, the network drives with all of our data on it isn't functional, and teachers can't get into their grade logging program, because it's over the network also! (this might be fixed next year when my school might be getting new apple computers)
Last, and probably the worst thing that they could have done, what that they started using a new security program to block web traffic. This means that they also had to wipe and reload windows on all of our computers. This wipe was without warning, and some teachers didn't get their data off of the drives. I had one math teacher who had a powerpoint for every day of the school year, and most of his powerpoints were on the computer. Not only this, but the new filtering program is WORSE than the old one, and they didn't mess with the kind of accesses we get, so we can install anything to the computers that we want. (Foxfire FTW)

Not only this but our Computer Science teacher was back from the pre-OOP days, and didn't actually keep up with her languages after she stopped being in the computer science field. So all she is teaching us is what she learned from CS seminars that she attends and is going straight out of a book (no picture of an animal on the cover). I had to actually show her today in class how at the java commands to the command prompt, without having to be in the /bin folder today. That bin folder is now just a heap of completely unorganized programs, as we've had to use that for the last 3 months.

TheWhaleShark

You son of a bitch, you drank my last vanilla creme soda.

I hope you enjoyed it.

jcc

While computer literacy is a useful thing, if it ever becomes required to the extent that a job at McDonald's can no longer be done without it, things have taken a turn for the worst. Technology should be a tool, not a crutch.

Apreche

While computer literacy is a useful thing, if it ever becomes required to the extent that a job at McDonald's can no longer be done without it, things have taken a turn for the worst. Technology should be a tool, not a crutch.

Pencils and paper should be a tool, not a crutch. Slide rules and rulers should be a tool not a crutch.

I can't stomach this stupid crutch argument any more. Can you survive in the rain forest if you are buck naked and alone? If no, then shut up. Turtles have shells, porcupines have spikes, sharks have teeth, and humans have opposable thumbs and tools. Tools are our advantage in life. You wouldn't tell tell a porcupine that it's using it's spikes as a crutch, so don't tell me that my computer is a crutch I should be able to live without.

Instead, think of the people who are not computer literate as turtles who don't know how to duck into their shells when predators attack. They better learn fast, before they get eaten up.

TheWhaleShark

The entirety of human civilization exists, and has progressed, entirely because we make technological solutions to make up for our lack of genetic advantages.

You need a crutch when you have a broken leg.

Jason

Scrym used the Intelligent Design argument to link that back door to the NSA.

Apreche

Scrym used the Intelligent Design argument to link that back door to the NSA.

Um, how so?

Jason

Scrym used the Intelligent Design argument to link that back door to the NSA.

Um, how so?

Rym: "My hunch opinion is this is, in fact, intentional, just because [of] the odds something like this just being so perfectly there... that's kind of out there."

Apreche

Jason, did you RTFA?

Jason

I don't read Hebrew.

starflyer3000

I haven't finished listening to the episode, but as always I have found your conversation interesting. I did have a couple of thoughts related to some points made earlier in the episode (in particular, the discussion over the hoax and "foxfire.exe"). As I am a teacher and a bit of a techie, I think I can provide some insight into this whole thing. As stated in the discussion, even if this incident is a hoax, it is certainly probable, so discussing it is still important.

First, on the issue of getting a detention. What needs to be understood is that as teachers we ask our students to do certain things, sometimes in certain ways. Usually (at least in my classes), there is a good reason for doing it a certain way, even if it just to make grading and such easier. If an assignment calls for the student to use IE, then that's what he needs to use, even if Firefox is a better browser (although its memory usage drives me nuts sometimes). I personally think that computer training should be platform independent (as does our technology teacher at my school), but sometimes we're forced to use a specific program because of textbook adoption and state standards.

In relation to that issue of detention is installing programs on school computers. The truth is that most people (students included) have a bad habit of installing all sorts of crap on their work/school computers when they are allowed to do so. I worked as the Technology Director for a small school district (100 kids k-12) as well as being high school English teacher for two years, and one of the most time consuming things I had to deal with when I took over the position was people installing spyware and other malware on their computers. The only immediate solution I had at the time would have been to just not allow anyone else to install software; of course, instead of spending time fixing other people's computers, I would have just been spending that time installing programs for other people. Many schools, however, do just that (I can't install Firefox on my computer at school, either, so I just run it from a USB drive). Another solution is to have a policy (as many schools do), outlawing the installation of unapproved programs. Regardless of whether students feel they should be allowed to install programs, the fact is they are not. The rule has to be the same for everyone, and if a student violated the rule, then discipline is necessary.

Second, a big part of the discussion had to do with the technological competence (or incompetence) of many teachers. The fact is that just like in life, people have different levels of technological ability; sometimes that can be dealt with with education, but sometimes people just don't deal with it. It isn't that schools aren't trying. I had to go to many hours of training in basic computer stuff (even though I had already taken all this in college) so I could receive a laptop from a grant. Teachers do get a lot of training in how to use a computer, and I think was we progress, much of that training will also extend to using that technology in the classroom. However, only the youngest teachers grew up with computers (I'm 30, and we didn't have a computer at home until I was in middle school - an 8088) as part of their everyday home lives, and it's going to take many years before the majority of teachers did so.

Also tied with this problem is money; to use technology in the way many people suggest, we would need to have a computer for every student most of the time. While there are many schools who are able to provide this, many poorer schools (where I have taught) simply can't. With all the advances in technology over the last 10 years, it will take time for schools to adjust. Just as a general rule, it takes at least 3 years once a program is started to see results from that program, and unfortunately, because of political pressure, etc., programs (including technology ones), get changed all the time. Give teachers a break in a lot of this; we're often dealing with things we can't control (just as students).

I'll listen to the rest of the episode tomorrow to see what you're suggestions are, but I had to get some of this out while it was fresh in my mind.

jcc

While computer literacy is a useful thing, if it ever becomes required to the extent that a job at McDonald's can no longer be done without it, things have taken a turn for the worst. Technology should be a tool, not a crutch.

Pencils and paper should be a tool, not a crutch. Slide rules and rulers should be a tool not a crutch.

I can't stomach this stupid crutch argument any more. Can you survive in the rain forest if you are buck naked and alone? If no, then shut up. Turtles have shells, porcupines have spikes, sharks have teeth, and humans have opposable thumbs and tools. Tools are our advantage in life. You wouldn't tell tell a porcupine that it's using it's spikes as a crutch, so don't tell me that my computer is a crutch I should be able to live without.

Instead, think of the people who are not computer literate as turtles who don't know how to duck into their shells when predators attack. They better learn fast, before they get eaten up.

Perhaps an example. The automobile, when invented, allowed people to get from one city to another in a significantly shorter time. As a tool, it expanded the practical reach of human endeavor. However, used indiscriminately, it created the suburbs and all the problems that came with them. Although you can still cross the country in a time frame just this side of magical, most of the necessities of life (food, job, friends, etc.) are probably over 10 miles away from when you live. If you were to get rid of your car, you wouldn't just lose the initial benefits, you'd find that things which had previously been easy, like going to the store to get some milk, were now far more difficult.

...

While computer literacy is a useful thing, if it ever becomes required to the extent that a job at McDonald's can no longer be done without it, things have taken a turn for the worst. Technology should be a tool, not a crutch.

Pencils and paper should be a tool, not a crutch. Slide rules and rulers should be a tool not a crutch.

To take that a step further. Language is a tool to communicate. If you can't read or write in a language you can do nothing.

Apreche

Perhaps an example. The automobile, when invented, allowed people to get from one city to another in a significantly shorter time. As a tool, it expanded the practical reach of human endeavor. However, used indiscriminately, it created the suburbs and all the problems that came with them. Although you can still cross the country in a time frame just this side of magical, most of the necessities of life (food, job, friends, etc.) are probably over 10 miles away from when you live. If you were to get rid of your car, you wouldn't just lose the initial benefits, you'd find that things which had previously been easy, like going to the store to get some milk, were now far more difficult.

Yes, different technologies have different consequences for civilization, congratulations. Are you going to now say that people don't need to learn how to drive? We shouldn't encourage people in our car-based society to take driver's education? Someone who can't drive a car is at a severe disadvantage in our society. It is an essential skill for getting by in this world, and we should make sure as many people as possible learn this skill as well as they can. Maybe we can even have better driver's education so that people have fewer accidents.

HMTKSteve

Lack of car driving skill is only bad if you do not live in a major metropolitan area. I grew up in Boston and had zero desire to get a driver's license. I did not get a license until I ended up being stationed in the middle of central California where the front gate was 15 miles from the barracks. Once you left the front gate it was 35 miles to the nearest town.

jcc

Yes, different technologies have different consequences for civilization, congratulations. Are you going to now say that people don't need to learn how to drive? We shouldn't encourage people in our car-based society to take driver's education? Someone who can't drive a car is at a severe disadvantage in our society. It is an essential skill for getting by in this world, and we should make sure as many people as possible learn this skill as well as they can. Maybe we can even have better driver's education so that people have fewer accidents.

Given that all new technologies come with new consequences stemming from their use, I'm saying technology shouldn't be applied indiscriminately. New and improved don't always mean the same thing.

Rym

New and improved don't always mean the same thing.

In this case, however, I believe they do. Computers give humans the power to do far more than they could ever do on their own, and are in integral part in modern society. The benefits, in my opinion, far outweigh the costs or even the risks. They are the most powerful tool man has ever created.

Anyone in the next generation who spurns this tool will effectively remove themselves from society.

Omnutia

New and improved are mutually exclusive: If something is new there cannot be anything preceding it which is a prerequisite for something being improved.

Hank

New and improved are mutually exclusive: If something is new there cannot be anything preceding it which is a prerequisite for something being improved.

That depends on how you want to define new. I tend to think of it as "wasn't there before" or similar. Thus the Foobar 2.0, which improves upon the Foobar 1.0, is indeed new and improved.

I do agree with jcc that they are not always synonyms. However, that is an insight on the level of "Sun rises in east, sets in west."

Page

Rym, I have to ask, what definition are you using for the term computer literacy? As throughout the episode you seemed to jump between something close to what normal literacy is (encountering a problem, and using tools at hand to try and overcome it, the same way as when you're reading a book and you come across a new word you look it up in a dictionary) or as something that sounds a lot like rote-memorization (simply knowing the normal steps to complete a task, the same way a kid will declare they can read after simply memorizing a few books) such as when you were giving your PR e-mail example. Or am I the only one who's stumbling on this point, and just taking the language a little to much at face value?

Apreche

IMHO someone who is computer literate is someone who will never have to ask the sysadmin a question.

Rym

Computer literacy is the ability to use... going to be the topic of a future Monday show.

HMTKSteve

IMHO someone who is computer literate is someone who will never have to ask the sysadmin a question.

So anyone with less computer skills than you is computer illiterate?

Apreche

So anyone with less computer skills than you is computer illiterate?

You can know a lot less than I do and still not have to ask the sysadmin for help.

...

So anyone with less computer skills than you is computer illiterate?

You can know a lot less than I do and still not have to ask the sysadmin for help.

Truth. I am positive I know less about computers than Scott. I shall catch up though! And I never had to ask a sysadmin anything, except a thing or two which were 100% out of my reach. AKA emptying my alocated disk space for starting that year I too had a limit. Unlike the metric shit ton of Gigabytes worth of storage I had the previous year.

jcc

New and improved don't always mean the same thing.

In this case, however, I believe they do. Computers give humans the power to do far more than they could ever do on their own, and are in integral part in modern society. The benefits, in my opinion, far outweigh the costs or even the risks. They are the most powerful tool man has ever created.

Anyone in the next generation who spurns this tool will effectively remove themselves from society.

There's a difference between being a neo-Luddite and thinking that requiring computer literacy to get a job cooking hamburgers is a silly idea, made even sillier if the job is actually reconstructed so that this is a genuine requirement. ^^

In one of your shows you guys mentioned that you like using old-fashioned razors. Quadruple-bladed sonic vibrating mostly plastic disposable razors incorporate more technology, yet somehow manage to do the job less effectively. To me, incorporating computers into everything regardless of whether or not they serve a genuinely useful purpose in the task at hand is along the same track.

Apreche

In one of your shows you guys mentioned that you like using old-fashioned razors. Quadruple-bladed sonic vibrating mostly plastic disposable razors incorporate more technology, yet somehow manage to do the job less effectively. To me, incorporating computers into everything regardless of whether or not they serve a genuinely useful purpose in the task at hand is along the same track.

Yes, it is possible to use computers, or any technology, to actually decrease efficiency rather than increase it. However, as computers are so generally useful, just about any task can be made more efficient with their proper use. Give me just about any job, and I can come up with a way to make that job more efficient by using computers in some way.

Of course, the fact that it is possible to decrease efficiency with improper computer usage has nothing to do whatsoever with our discussion of computer literacy. If anything, I could argue that the only reason so many uses of computers actually result in less efficiency are because of lack of literacy by the users.

HMTKSteve

How about the job of mopping a floor?