Isaiah 40:22: There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell.
In Hebrew, the word "chuwg" means a two-dimensional plane stretching in all directions, in a circle. It can also mean "vault" or refer to everything visible to the horizon. It has occassionally been used to denote a sphere. The absolute best that can be said is that you can't disprove the author's intention by using the word -- which is pretty piss-poor evidence.
How did Noah save the freshwater fish? What about animals that were not native to where he lived? How big was this "ark?" How could it possibly have been built? How could it have fit those animals?
As far a Soloman's Temple look here. Perhaps they haven't found evidence because half the worlds religions don't allow digging on it's most likely site. Also look at that date on that article. There is a lot of dirt on the earth, and it would be reasonable to think that archaeologists have much to uncover.
Isaiah 40:22 could be a metaphor also, made you look.
Considering the amount of information we have about Noah's flood I can't accurately say when it happened. I have the same details you do.
As far a Soloman's Temple lookhere. Perhaps they haven't found evidence because half the worlds religions don't allow digging on it's most likely site. Also look at that date on that article. There is a lot of dirt on the earth, and it would be reasonable to think that archaeologists have much to uncover.
Considering the amount of information we have about Noah's flood I can't accurately say when it happened. I have the same details you do.
So, we're still at this point: You say you have volumes of evidence when in fact you have nothing.
Hmmmm, every time he's presented with questions he can't answer, he moves the marker stick one step further away from falsification....
Yeah. Before you get too far away from it, you said that
Now let's apply that to the Bible, it exists, it is factually correct both scientifically, and archaeologically. Reason would dictate that the Bible is factual. Of the 12 men that followed Jesus all save one gave their life, (and that one was boiled in oil, but lived) without recanting their statements. Reason would also lead me to believe that if 12 men made up a lie, they would not maintain that lie in the face of their own death. I have observed the Bible is true. If the Bible is true then God exists. . . . There are volumes of proof for biblical events.
We've asked for proof. We've asked for the volumes. You've given us nothing. Either ante up with your proof and your volumes or admit you were shit-talking.
Now let's apply that to the Bible, it exists, it is factually correct both scientifically, and archaeologically.
Again, provide evidence that these scientific claims are true.
World was created in seven days. Genesis 1:1-31
The moon gives off it's own light. Genesis 1:16 Ezekiel 32:7
An ark, which is to hold two every single animal in the world is only to be 450 feet long. Genesis 6:14-15
A flood filled in the entire earth to the very mountain top with fifteen cubits to spare. Where did all the water come from or go? Where is the evidence of such a flood? Genesis 7:20
List of people, all of who lived over at least 200 years, many of them living more than 400 years! Genesis 11:10-26
Bats are birds. Leviticus 11:13,19
The earth rests on pillars Job 9:6 Job 38:4
Sun revolves around the Earth Psalm 19:4-6 Ecclesiastes 1:5
Earth is flat Ezekiel 7:2 Daniel 4:10-11 Matthew 4:8 (How do you resolve this contradiction?)
Solar and Lunar eclipses were actually the sun going dark and the moon bleeding Joel 2:31
A man's sight is returned to him after washing in some water. John 9:7
It leads to nowhere! Or just stop typing 'html' instead of the proper 'href'. They are nothing alike. Also, I think you skipped a question.
Maybe if you pray, God will fix your link.
am_dragon, you said
Now let's apply that to the Bible, it exists, it is factually correct both scientifically, and archaeologically.
Again, provide evidence that these scientific claims are true.
World was created in seven days. Genesis 1:1-31
The moon gives off it's own light. Genesis 1:16 Ezekiel 32:7
An ark, which is to hold two every single animal in the world is only to be 450 feet long. Genesis 6:14-15
A flood filled in the entire earth to the very mountain top with fifteen cubits to spare. Where did all the water come from or go? Where is the evidence of such a flood? Genesis 7:20
List of people, all of who lived over at least 200 years, many of them living more than 400 years! Genesis 11:10-26
Bats are birds. Leviticus 11:13,19
The earth rests on pillars Job 9:6 Job 38:4
Sun revolves around the Earth Psalm 19:4-6 Ecclesiastes 1:5
Earth is flat Ezekiel 7:2 Daniel 4:10-11 Matthew 4:8 (How do you resolve this contradiction?)
Solar and Lunar eclipses were actually the sun going dark and the moon bleeding Joel 2:31
A man's sight is returned to him after washing in some water. John 9:7
Wasn't there some nonsense about some Old Testament dude stopping the sun in its tracks for three days?
I'm still waiting for an explanation of how Noah fit every animal in the world into a boat he built himself, without all of them starving and without the boat sinking, including animals that are native to only one part of the globe and freshwater fish. Also, how did he repopulate the world?
AM: "Guys, the Bible is true." Joe/Jason: *presents contradition* AM: "No, that part is just a metaphor!"
Uhm, right. In an argument, you can't just explain away the things that contradict your main point by pulling out the "oh, it's a metaphor!" cop-out. By that logic, how does one distinguish between a factual assertion in the Bible, and a metaphorical statement? Right now, it seems to be by your whim. Outline for us then, please, your method for discerning the Bible's literal truth from its metaphors, so that we may examine it for validity.
This pretty much sends John W. Montgomery packing.
As for William Foxwell Albright,
Nothing today is left of this approach amongst mainstream archaeologists: "His central theses have all been overturned, partly by further advances in Biblical criticism, but mostly by the continuing archaeological research of younger Americans and Israelis to whom he himself gave encouragement and momentum.
Here is what some guy said about Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition:
This book contends that the Hebrews really were enslaved by Egypt, but that fact has either been "lost" to historians or has been "hidden" from historians.... and that one must infer the existence of the ancient Hebrews in Egypt.
There are a nearly infinite number of flaws with that contention. The major one is, if the Hebrew Testament had not mentioned the alleged Hebrew enslavement in Egypt, nobody would ever think it had happened based upon evidence: the belief must come first, and then proponents of the claim strive mightily to find any and all possible "just so stories" to defend that believe.... no matter how absurd and tenuous. That is what the author of this book has done.
I'm sure most if not all of those books do not address my challenges? If they do, could you tell me which ones specifically address them? Also, archeology doesn't really address any of the supernatural claims of the bible.
Taunting the religious ceased being fun to me years ago. People are going to believe what they want even if we show them that there is life on other planets and that that life evolved.
There is actually conclusive proof that there is no God. Unfortunately, death is required to experience it and the realization is fleeting at best.
I haven't been able to find anything good on Amihai Mazar yet, but this is what a colleague says about his daughter:
Mazar follows two principles: (1) Biblical data are accepted without criticism as the basis for archaeological interpretation; (2) Therefore, biblical interpretation takes precedence over archaeological data.
That book, Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition, tries to persuade the reader that there is some sort of proof for the events of Exodus. Scott, didn't you say something about that once?
Here's briefly what I found about Kenyon:
Sir Frederick Kenyon, who was second to none in issuing statements about manuscripts, said this about the New Testament: "The interval between the dates of original composition and the earliest existing evidence [i.e. the earliest copies we have] become so small to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially has having been written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and general integrity of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established." [7] He further said that "No fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading."
Thank you for your volumes, Mr. dragon. Not a one of them prove a thing that we asked you about and not a one of them contain the proof that you boast about. You'll be citing Raiders of the Lost Ark to us next.
Yes. Years ago I actually thought that ancient hebrews were at one point slaves in Egypt. At that time I didn't believe the sticks to snakes, plagues, fiery bushes, or parting seas. I thought it was a perfectly natural historical occurrence. Then I was challenged on it, and I was like no way!
The first question I tried to answer is "what year did it happen?". In all the research I discovered that there was only ever one piece of archaeological evidence ever found that might support the idea that ancient hebrews were ever in Egypt. The lack of evidence, in this case, is evidence itself. If so many people had been enslaved there, then it would have been impossible for mountains of archeological evidence to have not been left behind.
If you want, I will find a citation for that one piece of evidence when I get home.
The lack of evidence, in this case, is evidence itself. If so many people had been enslaved there, then it would have been impossible for mountains of archeological evidence to have not been left behind.
If you want, I will find a citation for that one piece of evidence when I get home.
Yeas, please. That fits in nicely with what I said earlier:
Here is what some guy said about Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition:
This book contends that the Hebrews really were enslaved by Egypt, but that fact has either been "lost" to historians or has been "hidden" from historians.... and that one must infer the existence of the ancient Hebrews in Egypt.
There are a nearly infinite number of flaws with that contention. The major one is, if the Hebrew Testament had not mentioned the alleged Hebrew enslavement in Egypt, nobody would ever think it had happened based upon evidence: the belief must come first, and then proponents of the claim strive mightily to find any and all possible "just so stories" to defend that believe.... no matter how absurd and tenuous. That is what the author of this book has done.
I like where this thread is going now. Let's just talk about archeological evidence for secular origins. At least until we find out what year the flood happened.
I'm still waiting for an explanation of how Noah fit every animal in the world into a boat he built himself, without all of them starving and without the boat sinking, including animals that are native to only one part of the globe and freshwater fish. Also, how did he repopulate the world?
Back then, there weren't so many kinds of animals. Most of them evolved later.
I'm still waiting for an explanation of how Noah fit every animal in the world into a boat he built himself, without all of them starving and without the boat sinking, including animals that are native to only one part of the globe and freshwater fish. Also, how did he repopulate the world?
My first impulse would be to assume the flood described was a local event. The Hebrew word eretz is a funny one to translate. It could just as well mean land as world.
I am going to bow out of this discussion. I just do not have time to address 5 people every time I make a post. People that only seem to want to tear down, and destroy, finding every flaw with every statement, word, or reference not matter how small.
You continue to ask for proof; my answer is in 2 parts. First the existence of God can not be proven. Faith is the key virtue that must be applied to the information we do have. The personal observations I have made in my life, and reason have lead me to a point where I have faith that God does indeed exist. The second point comes straight from the Bible. First in Deuteronomy 8:2-3, then repeated by Jesus in the New Testament Luke 4:4
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone.'â€Â
Pure reason will not answer all of your questions. As I stated earlier the scientific method relies on theories and hypotheses (faith) to further the field. On the other hand faith and blind fideism, neither provides all the answers. Think with your mind and your heart and try to understand what the above passage says.
If you truly wish to find answers I again defer to Jesus. Luke 11:9-10
"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.â€Â
Peace to all of you. I pray that each of you finds what you are looking for, and are blessed in your endeavors. I would just like to leave you with these short statements from a few thinking men that have found God.
"God has put enough into the world to make faith in Him a most reasonable thing, and He has left enough out to make it impossible to live by sheer reason or observation alone" - Ravi Zacharias.
"There is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on" - C.S. Lewis.
"There are many real things outside the scope of verification by the scientific method. The scientific method is useful only with measurable things. No one has ever seen three feet of love or two pounds of justice, but one would be foolish indeed to deny their reality. To insist that God be proved by the scientific method is like insisting that a telephone be used to measure radioactivity" - Paul Little.
Comments
In Hebrew, the word "chuwg" means a two-dimensional plane stretching in all directions, in a circle. It can also mean "vault" or refer to everything visible to the horizon. It has occassionally been used to denote a sphere. The absolute best that can be said is that you can't disprove the author's intention by using the word -- which is pretty piss-poor evidence.
Could you even disprove that much?
Isaiah 40:22 could be a metaphor also, made you look.
Considering the amount of information we have about Noah's flood I can't accurately say when it happened. I have the same details you do.
Oh yeah, they've found things from Solomon's Temple before. They turned out to be fake..
P.s. the link actually works in this post.
. . .
Did you live up to your nick name and switched it back to html instead of href? *shakes his fist* Bastard.
EDIT: Oh, perhaps someone can throw a rope to am_dragon?
Joe/Jason: *presents contradition*
AM: "No, that part is just a metaphor!"
Uhm, right. In an argument, you can't just explain away the things that contradict your main point by pulling out the "oh, it's a metaphor!" cop-out. By that logic, how does one distinguish between a factual assertion in the Bible, and a metaphorical statement? Right now, it seems to be by your whim. Outline for us then, please, your method for discerning the Bible's literal truth from its metaphors, so that we may examine it for validity.
- Montgomery, John W. History and Christianity.
- Kenyon, Frederick G. The Bible and Archaeology.
- Glueck, Nelson. Rivers in the Desert: History of Negev.
- Albright, William Foxwell. Archaeology and the Religions of Israel.
- Albright, William Foxwell. The Archaeology of Palestine.
- Burrows, Millar. What Mean These Stones?
- Greenlee, J. Harold. Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism.
- Pfeiffe, Charles F. Wycliffe Dictionary of Biblical Archaeology
- Free, Joseph P. Archaeology and Bible History
- Coogan, Michael David. The Oxford History of the Biblical World
- Mazar, Amihai. Archaeology of the Land of the Bible 10,000-586 BCE
- Hoffmeier, James K. Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition
Historical Extra-biblical references to the New Testament.- Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History, III. 39) referring to Mark
- Papias (c. 130 AD) refers to Matthew's gospel
- Irenaeus (c. 180 AD) refers to the four gospels and Matthew
Richard Dawkins talking about what he believes. linkI prayed and the link is fixed. Praise be to God.
As for William Foxwell Albright, Source.
Irenaeus, Papias, and Eusebius were all churchy-types. Hardly fair brokers.
Here is what some guy said about Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition:
Oh, and what year was the flood?
There is actually conclusive proof that there is no God. Unfortunately, death is required to experience it and the realization is fleeting at best.
I haven't been able to find anything good on Amihai Mazar yet, but this is what a colleague says about his daughter: Source.
That book, Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition, tries to persuade the reader that there is some sort of proof for the events of Exodus. Scott, didn't you say something about that once?
Here's briefly what I found about Kenyon: Source.
Thank you for your volumes, Mr. dragon. Not a one of them prove a thing that we asked you about and not a one of them contain the proof that you boast about. You'll be citing Raiders of the Lost Ark to us next.
The first question I tried to answer is "what year did it happen?". In all the research I discovered that there was only ever one piece of archaeological evidence ever found that might support the idea that ancient hebrews were ever in Egypt. The lack of evidence, in this case, is evidence itself. If so many people had been enslaved there, then it would have been impossible for mountains of archeological evidence to have not been left behind.
If you want, I will find a citation for that one piece of evidence when I get home.
You continue to ask for proof; my answer is in 2 parts. First the existence of God can not be proven. Faith is the key virtue that must be applied to the information we do have. The personal observations I have made in my life, and reason have lead me to a point where I have faith that God does indeed exist. The second point comes straight from the Bible. First in Deuteronomy 8:2-3, then repeated by Jesus in the New Testament Luke 4:4 Pure reason will not answer all of your questions. As I stated earlier the scientific method relies on theories and hypotheses (faith) to further the field. On the other hand faith and blind fideism, neither provides all the answers. Think with your mind and your heart and try to understand what the above passage says.
If you truly wish to find answers I again defer to Jesus. Luke 11:9-10 Peace to all of you. I pray that each of you finds what you are looking for, and are blessed in your endeavors. I would just like to leave you with these short statements from a few thinking men that have found God.
"God has put enough into the world to make faith in Him a most reasonable thing, and He has left enough out to make it impossible to live by sheer reason or observation alone" - Ravi Zacharias.
"There is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on" - C.S. Lewis.
"There are many real things outside the scope of verification by the scientific method. The scientific method is useful only with measurable things. No one has ever seen three feet of love or two pounds of justice, but one would be foolish indeed to deny their reality. To insist that God be proved by the scientific method is like insisting that a telephone be used to measure radioactivity" - Paul Little.