GeekNights 080401 - Collectible Games

Rym

Tonight on GeekNights, we discuss the nature of collectible games. In the news, Ubisoft goes Steam, and Team Fortress 2 is edging ever toward death.

Scott's Thing - Ikarium
Rym's Thing - Brawl Bug #1

Railith

Collectin' games gave us Pokemons, and I love me some Pokemons.

I agree with you guys that the biggest problem with collectible games is their high cost. If they made a game in the style of the Pokemon Trading Card Game for Gameboy for non Pokemon games it would be totally sweet.

Those Inquest Gamer kinda magazines are the biggest pile of shit I ever bought when I was heavy into the children's card games. Those fuckers are deceptively huge, but most of it is shitty price guides for shitty cards that you will never own.

chaosof99

Well, I guess you guys don't know that since you are pretty much off the grid with it, but there are relatively cheap and effective ways to play Magic: The Gathering as well.

The probably best one is playing limited formats. In this you get a limited amount of assorted cards, a booster or a tournament pack (equivalent to three boosters) at the location of the tournament and build a deck with those cards and basic lands given to you there. In such tournaments you normally play for at least three rounds and get to keep valuable cards that you can keep for Constructed Tournaments (those are the ones where you show up with a deck you built at home), trade or sell if you want to.

Another one is that there is a free program called Magic Workstation which gives you all the cards and let's you play through the internet for free. With this you get all the strategic elements without spending any money at all (although the program is a little bit shitty). There are other programs that do this as well but MWS is probably the best one for it. There are also free software versions of the above limited formats.

And finally, the "writing names of useful cards on useless cards" Rym described is also still done for testing purposes. It's normally called "using proxy cards" and is of course not tournament legal, but it's a way to test if you want that card for your deck before trading for it. Of course it always helps if you have a larger network of friends or at least know a lot of other Magic players that you can borrow cards you need from.

Bronzdragon

In in with Ikarium! My name is bronzdragon (ofcourse).

Apreche

Well, I guess you guys don't know that since you are pretty much off the grid with it, but there are relatively cheap and effective ways to play Magic: The Gathering as well.

If you play a draft, the game really comes down to luck. If someone gets awesome cards, they are going to win. With a computerized version with every card, the game really becomes rock paper scissors.

chaosof99

If you play a draft, the game really comes down to luck. If someone gets awesome cards, they are going to win. With a computerized version with every card, the game really becomes rock paper scissors.

Wrong in both accounts. While in draft there are some very overpowered cards which often win games, so called bombs, those do not necessarily mean that one will automatically win when he opened such a card. The draft process itself with card evaluation, pick orders and signaling (meaning to know what cards you got passed and are passing and estimating what your neighbors are picking) is a rather complex process.

And in recent years, tournaments have certainly not deviated into Rock Paper Scissors anymore. There are tons of successful decks out there for every format imaginable. For example these are pages of decks who made Top 8 in high profile tournaments of the current Standard and Extended environments. Especially with such a variety, it becomes very important to know how to play your deck correctly in any situation.

Rym

It's normally called "using proxy cards" and is of course not tournament legal, but it's a way to test if you want that card for your deck before trading for it.

So the jargon hasn't changed I see. ;^)

Still, the whole "you can't use a proxy card in a tournament" thing always bothered me as a child. I could never afford all the cards I needed to make obviously superior decks, which was the main reason I stopped playing.

Conan-San

Eh, I find more fun screwing around with the various card making programs that exists.

It's a shame my weapon of choice, Magic Set Editor, still isn't that great at doing Pokemon (It can do Yu Gi Oh, Magic (obviously) and the VS system (Some guys released a fan set based on The Transformers a while back), 'Cuz I really want to give doing a Smash Brothers set a shot.

Viga

Sigh. My CCG days was into the Yugioh. I used to be way into it from 03 to 0 then it wavered a lot in 07 until I stopped playing.

I used to buy a lot but then I didn't have to since my bro or my ex gave me cards all the time. I was one of the best females in my area and the best at school too. With the rules changing and the less than quality people playing at school and the town comic shop I was like meh this is stupid.

Plus the people whos lives this game has consumed. I'm talking it's their whole life! Nothing but the game and the cards. Then when Yugioh slowed down now it's the Naruto card game. The cycle continues.

Anyway, fuck CCG's. I had my fill and now I think they're dumb.

VentureJ

Admittedly, I'm still relatively into CCG's, mostly since I have a friend that owns a comic-book/card shop and the proliferation of these types of games would only help his business.

WallyBman

I'm really into Warhammer 40k. Yes, it is very expensive, but the custimization is set up in a manner that is extremely wel balanced. I still have way less invested in 40k than I have in other hobbies.

Apreche

We forgot to talk about the can of Coke that won the Yugi-oh tournament.

Viga

We forgot to talk about the can of Coke that won the Yugi-oh tournament.

Do tell.

Apreche

We forgot to talk about the can of Coke that won the Yugi-oh tournament.

Do tell.

The gaming store, which had access to all the cards at the time, made the best Yugi-oh deck possible. They gave the deck to a can of soda. I think the can was empty. Maybe it was a bottle? I forget. Anyway, the soda would every turn draw one card and play one card. I believe the soda won. If it didn't win, it definitely did very well. Thus it showed that Yugi-oh was really just rock-paper-scissors, and having the nuclear bomb deck meant you would win pretty much regardless of how you played.

Viga

We forgot to talk about the can of Coke that won the Yugi-oh tournament.

Do tell.

The gaming store, which had access to all the cards at the time, made the best Yugi-oh deck possible. They gave the deck to a can of soda. I think the can was empty. Maybe it was a bottle? I forget. Anyway, the soda would every turn draw one card and play one card. I believe the soda won. If it didn't win, it definitely did very well. Thus it showed that Yugi-oh was really just rock-paper-scissors, and having the nuclear bomb deck meant you would win pretty much regardless of how you played.

Damn true.
Then everyone and their mom makes the exact deck. Reminds of of the trendies except with CCG's.

Eryn

I was into the Pokemon TCG from about grades 5-7, but not heavily. I never really had enough money or dedication to make super-awesome decks, so I always got creamed by the people I played against. I also was just a fan of the unique artwork that came on a bunch of the cards, like Scott mentioned with the X-Men cards. I used to have a container packed full of cards that I carted around in my backpack - now I have one original gen Haunter card still lying somewhere in the house, and I'm not even sure where it is.

I ended up getting more of my Pokemon TCG fix from the GameBoy Color game after a point. Like John Freeman mentioned, it obviated the high cost factor of playing the real TCG, and thus made it much more enjoyable to play in my eyes (though in some ways, the game was borked because you could save at any point and re-do bad moves). I ended up constructing my dream deck in that game, which was one of the fabled "no energy" decks that were viable up until certain cards came out later on down the line. I was a freakin' badass with it, and I especially loved beating Imakuni? for some reason.

chaosof99

Don't be sad about that Scott. You told that story on the Podcast once before.

Norvu

Team Fortress 2 is imitating Call of Duty with the 'unlocks', since that game is pretty darn popular. It isn't going the mmorpg route, although similar.

Li_Akahi

I used to play Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh. I actually still have my Yu-gi-oh cards and try to play one game at Otakon each year just to wail on some people.

Infinity

Look, Magic is nothing like any of those other cruddy CCGs (like Yugi-oh). While I agree that it can cost a lot of money, it doesn't have to. Nearly every format has some relatively cheap decks, and, as mentioned by chaosof99, drafts cost very little and are tons of fun to do. It's not just luck Scott; sure you'll be better off if you have it, but often times it comes down to other things like drafting a good mana curve or finding good card synergies (such as tribes in the most recent set).

Scott, don't act like you know what the game is like. The game is not mere rock paper scissors (though it plays a part in it). Besides, you guys always complain about games that get "solved". Magic is never truly "solved". I think you'd both really enjoy drafting, and if you don't, just sell off the cards you drafted.

Rym

Scott, don't act like you know what the game is like. The game is not mere rock paper scissors (though it plays a part in it).

I don't think you understand. Pretty-much all deterministic games devolve into "rock paper scissors," it's just a matter of when, and it's not necessarily a bad thing.

It's not just luck Scott; sure you'll be better off if you have it, but often times it comes down to other things like drafting a good mana curve or finding good card synergies (such as tribes in the most recent set).

Yes, the pre-game deck management is skill and knowledge based to a fair degree. The gameplay itself, however, is fairly straightforward. Give ten players the same deck and the same draw, and nine will play it the same way: the game itself is basically the draft.

In that case, however, you're not playing a collectible game: you're playing a semi-randomized drafting game that just happens to use the pieces of a collectible game.

chaosof99

In that case, however, you're not playing a collectible game: you're playing a semi-randomized drafting game that just happens to use the pieces of a collectible game.

If you go by such a strict definition, then constructed CCG tournaments are also not tournaments of a collectible game since the social network of a tournament player pretty much allows him to get any card and play any deck he wants and is not limited to the cards in his personal collection.

Rym

If you go by such a strict definition, then constructed CCG tournaments are also not tournaments of a collectible game since the social network of a tournament player pretty much allows him to get any card and play any deck he wants and is not limited to the cards in his personal collection.

Without strict definitions, it's impossible to discuss the subject.

As for your example, it depends on exactly how the "draft" is conducted and what liberties the players are allowed.

J.Sharp

Magic is quite fun and surprisingly well balanced in limited formats, like Swiss draft or the pre-release tournaments. Constructed formats are where you really hit the money wall. Of course, things may be different now; I haven't played in years.

From what little experience I've had with the anime fad CCGs (Yugioh, Dot Hack, Kingdoms Hearts, Various Shonen all qualify IMO), they're rarely very well designed and often have a much worse rarity spread than Magic.

Apreche

From what little experience I've had with the anime fad CCGs (Yugioh, Dot Hack, Kingdoms Hearts, Various Shonen all qualify IMO), they're rarely very well designed and often have a much worse rarity spread than Magic.

Games like that are usually all about licensing. Instead of trying to make a good game, they just make any old game, and hope it will sell on the merits of the licensed property. You can't blame people for doing this either. Let's say I go out and make an amazing game, but it's a generic pirate or zombie theme. Now you go and slap together a crap game, but it's a Haruhi Suzumiya game. Guess who is going to have a better chance of making moneys?

Neito

Let's say I go out and make an amazing game, but it's a generic pirate or zombie theme. Now you go and slap together a crap game, but it's a Haruhi Suzumiya game. Guess who is going to have a better chance of making moneys?

The sad part is, my first reaction to skimming this paragraph was "There's a Haruhi TCG? Where can I find it?".
Thus proving Scott's point.

chaosof99

Well, some licensed games are pretty o.k. I played a few games of the WoW CCG and it was actually quite nice, although it felt more like a dumbed down version of MTG where you can directly attack creatures and play every card as a land.

HMTKSteve

The Lord of the Rings CCG put out by Decipher did a good thing in that there were often varying rarity levels of main character cards. You could easily get an uncommon Aragorn card that worked with all the Aragorn strategies OR you could seek out the rare Aragorn card that was specialized to work better with a certain subgroup of Aragorn strategies.

I used to be very heavy into the Star Wars CCG by Decipher. I even ran tournaments for a year. Eventually I got married and could no longer justify buying a case of each new expansion. As the tournament director I often made up bizarre decks using limited numbers of rare cards or no rare cards at all. It was not uncommon for me to win 90% of my games and coming real close on the other 10% even against the top players in the area.

As new sets come out new popular strategies appear on the scene. These strategies are also designed to beat the other popular strategies. when you come at them with something bizarre that they are in no way prepared to deal with they fall off of their game. It's like living in the age of mounted knights and attacking them with skirmishing men with crossbows hidden in the trees. that force of knights is hard as hell in regards to everything on the battlefield but they are in no way ready to fight skirmishers who are spread out.

I have tried a few of the computerized card games out there but I will not get sucked into one that involves micro-payments and buying more virtual cards. If I wanted to do that I'd go back to Chron-X which is an excellent implementation of an online card game. (There is a free version).

I'm content to let the Pokemon games fill my craving for collectible gaming. Right now I'm one star away from getting my Black Card. I figure next year this time a new Pokemon RPG will be out on Wii or DS.

Viga

Let's say I go out and make an amazing game, but it's a generic pirate or zombie theme. Now you go and slap together a crap game, but it's a Haruhi Suzumiya game. Guess who is going to have a better chance of making moneys?

The sad part is, my first reaction to skimming this paragraph was "There's a Haruhi TCG? Where can I find it?".
Thus proving Scott's point.

Guilty as well except I wouldn't buy it.

...

Let's say I go out and make an amazing game, but it's a generic pirate or zombie theme. Now you go and slap together a crap game, but it's a Haruhi Suzumiya game. Guess who is going to have a better chance of making moneys?

The sad part is, my first reaction to skimming this paragraph was "There's a Haruhi TCG? Where can I find it?".
Thus proving Scott's point.

Guilty as well except I wouldn't buy it.

Crazy kids these days.

Now where is that zombie game?

Infinity

I don't think you understand. Pretty-much all deterministic games devolve into "rock paper scissors," it's just a matter ofwhen, and it's not necessarily a bad thing.

Sure, but Magic is more like Rock Paper Scissors Pencil Keyboard Coffee Stapler.... I know it's not necessarily a bad thing, but you're still making it sound far more limited than it is. Maybe it was like that in Alpha days, but I know it's not nearly as much like that now.

Yes, the pre-game deck management is skill and knowledge based to a fair degree. The gameplay itself, however, is fairly straightforward. Give ten players the same deck and the same draw, and nine will play it the same way: the game itself is basically the draft.

Again, this is not really true. Sure some decks are like that; quick and fast decks are usually extremely straightforward and simple to play. Control is far less like that, as you have to make decisions on what poses a threat to you and what doesn't. I bet you that if you have 10 people sit down with the same control deck and the same draw, none of them would play it the same way. Even for more aggressive decks, you must choose what cards to play first and how much to hold back in case of disaster.

I can see the points you make applying to old Magic, but this is new Magic. It's just not the same.