Simple answer: not releasing it causes no harm to his electability for reasonable people, nor for his existing supporters and/or Democrats in general. No one who actually cares would have voted for him anyway. No real harm is done, yet there are benefits.
1. It shows faith in our legal system and laws. The document he provided is legally 100% legitimate as a replacement: any compliance with a demand for further documentation implies that this is not in fact correct.
2. It casts the opposition in stark, paranoid light. Moderates can't help but notice how increasingly crazy and desperate the argument sounds: there is no reason to "give in" when not doing so makes your opponents look childish.
3. It keeps idiots busy. This is always a good thing.
4. It forces the Republican party to deal with this bullshit in their primary run-up. The idiot-wing of the party keeps bringing it up, and all of the candidates have to take a position. Each candidate must either pay lip-service to it, marginalizing moderate Republicans, or ignore it, marginalizing the idiot-wing teabag side.
It's politically expedient to leave things as they are. No intelligent person is legitimately concerned about the contents of his birth certificate beyond what was already revealed.
It's not quite dead, but it's also not serious. It's mostly seen as silly conspiracy bollocks - mostly because Obama released the Birth certificate like they were screaming, and they immediately called it fake, and continued on.
Simple answer: not releasing it causes no harm to his electability for reasonable people, nor for his existing supporters and/or Democrats in general. No one who actually cares would have voted for him anyway. No real harm is done, yet there are benefits.
1. It shows faith in our legal system and laws. The document he provided is legally 100% legitimate as a replacement: any compliance with a demand for further documentation implies that this is not in fact correct.
2. It casts the opposition in stark, paranoid light. Moderates can't help but notice how increasingly crazy and desperate the argument sounds: there is no reason to "give in" when not doing so makes your opponents look childish.
3. It keeps idiots busy. This is always a good thing.
4. It forces the Republican party to deal with this bullshit in their primary run-up. The idiot-wing of the party keeps bringing it up, and all of the candidates have to take a position. Each candidate must either pay lip-service to it, marginalizing moderate Republicans, or ignore it, marginalizing the idiot-wing teabag side.
It's politically expedient to leave things as they are. No intelligent person is legitimately concerned about the contents of his birth certificate beyond what was already revealed.
In all seriousness, I have a question. I'm extremely surprised that Trump is receiving lots of attention over his birth certificate comments. I thought that the issue was very dead. It's obviously only the conservatives that care, but even amongst the conservatives I presumed that interest had waned.
Interestingly enough, the birth certificate Trump released wasn't even legit. It was a hospital certificate, not a Board of Health certificate, meaning it has no legal standing.
Interestingly enough, the birth certificate Trump released wasn't even legit. It was a hospital certificate, not a Board of Health certificate, meaning it has no legal standing.
I thought that was Trump's Own Hospital certificate, not Obama's.
I think this dream arose largely out of my fear that my religious in-laws will ask Lisa and I to go to Easter services with them, and that we will (as always) cave because we love her parents very much.
I always enjoyed Easter services at the Methodist or Presbyterian church when I was little. It was all Lilies and Magic Story-time and Hymns I remembered from last year, and I would wear nice pastel dresses. I especially liked when we would go at Christmas because it was at snowy night and all candle-lit and everyone would hum silent night. Is her families' church a hellfire and brimstone fundie bunch or something? If not, I'll tell you what you should do. It's what my atheist mom does, because my dad's side of the family is really involved in the church. Pretend you are going to a storytelling event of a traditional culture. I'm always interested when I got to go to temple at a synagogue or see Miko dances at the shrine in Japan. Think of it as an old traditional culture that you might not be a part of, but is still historically interesting as any old myths are.
On a side note (not really wanting to derail the thread) I'm reading the New testament in the modern translation, just because I want to understand Christianity. I feel I didn't really get the complete picture before, so in the case of scholarly curiosity (and the fact that I hate arguing blind), I borrowed a thrift store paperback version from my dad. I've decided that some of it is nice and some of the stuff makes me mad. I don't know if the character of Jesus, as portrayed in some of the gospels, is such the peace-loving figure we liberals sometimes give him credit for when fighting with the fundamentalists. He's really pretty exclusionary in some of his rhetoric.
Interestingly enough, the birth certificate Trump released wasn't even legit. It was a hospital certificate, not a Board of Health certificate, meaning it has no legal standing.
I thought that was Trump's Own Hospital certificate, not Obama's.
That's what I meant. The one Trump produced as his own certificate was the hospital one. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Jesus motherfucking Christ, are we still on this birther bullshit? He's released it, and released it, and released it. It's a matter of public record. The press has seen it. Congress has seen it. Independent watchdog groups have seen it. The presiding officials of the state of Hawaii have confirmed and reconfirmed its authenticity. The original, under Hawaii law, cannot be removed from its building.
This is like the stupid moon landing denier retardation, but politically motivated instead of pot-motivated.
True story: I had a dream last night that congressional Republicans won a 3/4 majority and decided to start making amendments to the Constitution.
All of this shit is definitely scary, but I always take the opinion that if something is so severe that it requires constitutional ammendment, and it actually succeeds, then I'm in a super minority and just need to accept it. There's a hell of a lot of crap that need to happen to pass ammendments, but if it ever got to that point, I'd have to suck it up and/or move.
3. It keeps idiots busy. This is always a good thing.
Game, set, and match. These birther arguments just make the idiots easier to identify.
Problem is that there are a lot of idiots. I just saw on the news two nights ago that more than 50% of all registered Republicans in New Hampshire believe that birther crap. Given how it's the first primary, New Hampshire does tend to have more influence on Presidential elections than its size would indicate. At least the reporter covering the story pointed out all the evidence that the birthers were full of crap, but they still refused to believe him.
This is what I get for not paying much attention to the issue until Trump was all over the news.
So what the hell was Neil Abercrombie talking about when he said that he would release the birth certificate and then never did? Was he referring to the "Certificate of Live Birth" rather than the "Certification of Live Birth"? But then from what I see there is no substantive difference between the two. If so, how the hell is Trump gaining traction with this?
I've got to be missing something here.
Having said that, if there is indeed a separate "Certificate of Live Birth" that is analogous to the "Certification", why doesn't Obama just release it and be done with it. He'd make the Republicans look like fools if there was nothing there.
Here is the way I see it. There is compelling and persuasive evidence establishing that Obama was born in Hawaii. Hawaii's bureaucratic records system has allowed controversy to persist due to a perceived complexity. (Certificate vs. Certification) So it's really about an argument over bureaucratic procedures rather than the underlying substantive issue. Kind of like arguing if a roof exists when the only thing that matters if there is a house underneath it.
Having said that, if there is indeed a separate "Certificate of Live Birth" that is analogous to the "Certification", why doesn't Obama just release it and be done with it. He'd make the Republicans look like fools if there was nothing there.
Aside from the fact that the idiot-wing of the party would say it was a fake, I think all of the reasons I noted on the last page sum up the reasons quite well.
If so, how the hell is Trump gaining traction with this?
Because lots of people will believe celebrities over anything else. See Oprah peddling pseudoscience bullshit and having legions of fans fall over themselves to get on the bandwagon.
Kilarney: What evidence do you think could possibly be presented that would change the minds of the birthers? These are people who desperately want to have a reason to hate a man. That's not a situation that allows for logic. They are passionately committed to a conspiracy theory. Any evidence disproving the conspiracy will be considered part of the conspiracy.
Kilarney: What evidence do you think could possibly be presented that would change the minds of the birthers? These are people who desperately want to have a reason to hate a man. That's not a situation that allows for logic. They are passionately committed to a conspiracy theory. Any evidence disproving the conspiracy will be considered part of the conspiracy.
Exactly. James Randi, who has tried for nearly his whole life, says these people can't be helped. He almost convinced one dowser once that dowsing was fake, but it didn't work. There is no hope for these people. They are immune to logic and reason and evidence.
Kilarney: What evidence do you think could possibly be presented that would change the minds of the birthers? These are people who desperately want to have a reason to hate a man. That's not a situation that allows for logic. They are passionately committed to a conspiracy theory. Any evidence disproving the conspiracy will be considered part of the conspiracy.
Exactly. James Randi, who has tried for nearly his whole life, says these people can't be helped. He almost convinced one dowser once that dowsing was fake, but it didn't work. There is no hope for these people. They are immune to logic and reason and evidence.
I've already shown how this is a complete "no true Scotsman" fallacy, so why repeat it? The term true believer even has the word true in it, to make the logical fallacy even clearer!
I don't understand why these birther people need an excuse to hate Obama. Why can't they just say, "I don't like Obama"? Are they afraid of being called racist simply because they dislike someone's politics? Of course, they could just be trying to hide the fact that they ARE racist, I suppose.
Whatever. Another problem that could be fixed by better education.
Kilarney: What evidence do you think could possibly be presented that would change the minds of the birthers? These are people who desperately want to have a reason to hate a man. That's not a situation that allows for logic. They are passionately committed to a conspiracy theory. Any evidence disproving the conspiracy will be considered part of the conspiracy.
Exactly. James Randi, who has tried for nearly his whole life, says these people can't be helped. He almost convinced one dowser once that dowsing was fake, but it didn't work. There is no hope for these people. They are immune to logic and reason and evidence.
I've already shown how this is a complete "no true Scotsman" fallacy, so why repeat it? The term true believer even has the word true in it, to make the logical fallacy even clearer!
No, you didn't.
If you are confident, then I challenge you to prove it practically. Go convince a birther they are wrong. Let me know what key evidence you used.
Are they afraid of being called racist simply because they dislike someone's politics?
It's kind of hard to imagine they don't like his politics when he's caved to so many things. You'd think that after awhile they'd say, "Hey, his politics are actually giving us pretty much what we want, so we should like him."
It's kind of hard to imagine they don't like his politics when he's caved to so many things. You'd think that after awhile they'd say, "Hey, his politics are actually giving us pretty much what we want, so we should like him."
Of course, if you point out that not wanting to compromise is un-American, the Republicans scream bloody murder. Never mind that compromise was one of the founding principals of this country going back at least as far as when the Constitution was first drawn up.
Comments
1. It shows faith in our legal system and laws. The document he provided is legally 100% legitimate as a replacement: any compliance with a demand for further documentation implies that this is not in fact correct.
2. It casts the opposition in stark, paranoid light. Moderates can't help but notice how increasingly crazy and desperate the argument sounds: there is no reason to "give in" when not doing so makes your opponents look childish.
3. It keeps idiots busy. This is always a good thing.
4. It forces the Republican party to deal with this bullshit in their primary run-up. The idiot-wing of the party keeps bringing it up, and all of the candidates have to take a position. Each candidate must either pay lip-service to it, marginalizing moderate Republicans, or ignore it, marginalizing the idiot-wing teabag side.
It's politically expedient to leave things as they are. No intelligent person is legitimately concerned about the contents of his birth certificate beyond what was already revealed.
On a side note (not really wanting to derail the thread) I'm reading the New testament in the modern translation, just because I want to understand Christianity. I feel I didn't really get the complete picture before, so in the case of scholarly curiosity (and the fact that I hate arguing blind), I borrowed a thrift store paperback version from my dad. I've decided that some of it is nice and some of the stuff makes me mad. I don't know if the character of Jesus, as portrayed in some of the gospels, is such the peace-loving figure we liberals sometimes give him credit for when fighting with the fundamentalists. He's really pretty exclusionary in some of his rhetoric.
This is like the stupid moon landing denier retardation, but politically motivated instead of pot-motivated.
^_^
Just one.
So what the hell was Neil Abercrombie talking about when he said that he would release the birth certificate and then never did? Was he referring to the "Certificate of Live Birth" rather than the "Certification of Live Birth"? But then from what I see there is no substantive difference between the two. If so, how the hell is Trump gaining traction with this?
I've got to be missing something here.
Having said that, if there is indeed a separate "Certificate of Live Birth" that is analogous to the "Certification", why doesn't Obama just release it and be done with it. He'd make the Republicans look like fools if there was nothing there.
Here is the way I see it. There is compelling and persuasive evidence establishing that Obama was born in Hawaii. Hawaii's bureaucratic records system has allowed controversy to persist due to a perceived complexity. (Certificate vs. Certification) So it's really about an argument over bureaucratic procedures rather than the underlying substantive issue. Kind of like arguing if a roof exists when the only thing that matters if there is a house underneath it.
Whatever. Another problem that could be fixed by better education.
If you are confident, then I challenge you to prove it practically. Go convince a birther they are wrong. Let me know what key evidence you used.
Democrats and Independents want compromise guess what republicans want?