The WoW CCG

Rym

Well, since we didn't do a show last night, I figured I could at least give you an early impression of the WoW CCG, which we played at the NYCC. I can sum it up, however, simply by saying that I was not impressed.

They also showed us the WoW miniatures game. I have both more and less to say about that...

ColdfireSerge

I have two friends who play the WoW CCG. They told me that in addition to each having their own character decks, they also play with their own Raid decks. They said that it made the game more fun.

Bronzdragon

I played a demo at a game convention, and after I got a starters deck (free). I haven't touched it since.

Infinity

Why is this just "Magic done better"? I can think of plenty of reasons to play Magic over the WoW CCG. Sure the resources are interesting, but from what I know about it, the WoW CCG is basically Magic minus ten years with more polish. Magic has so many interesting cards, perfected by over 15 years of design. You can't tell me this is any better; when was the last time you played Magic? You could call WoW Blizzard's request for even more money off the same license. Magic has always been the best of its kind, and it's too late to try to overtake it.

chaosof99

I agree with pretty much anything Rym says in the sense of how the mechanics are built. However, I don't agree with this being "Magic done better" and all comparisons that built upon this. It is an easier version of Magic, but not better. Magic has actually been very innovative in the recent years. An example from the most recent expansion:


Just to clarify, those weird symbols on the costs mean that you can pay either white or blue mana, and the untap symbol similar to the tap symbol. You can only use it the turn after the creature came under your control and the creature needs to be tapped to activate it (like abilities with the tap symbol needs an untapped permanent).

I think this impression of yours is founded in the fact that you haven't played Magic in years. The WoW TCG only appears slick and balanced because it basically is Magic implemented 13-14 years after it's first inception. It mostly only copies and implements standards that have been created by exploration that other trading card games have done. It does that well, I'll give it that, but it is very little it had to do for it. It is also the reason I see very little potential and space for exploration in that game.

Rym

Magic has always been the best of its kind, and it's too late to try to overtake it.

Actually, I'm betting that this game will trivially overtake Magic. WoW has such a brand, and this game is so polished, that it may well become a juggernaught.

Σπεκωσποκ

Magic has always been the best of its kind, and it's too late to try to overtake it.

Actually, I'm betting that this game will trivially overtake Magic. WoW has such a brand, and this game is so polished, that it may well become a juggernaught.

Need I remind you of some other failed magic clones based upon popular franchises?

Apreche

NeedIremind youof some otherfailed magic clonesbased uponpopularfranchises?

None of those are as strong franchises within the target demographic as WoW is. Also, the WoW game is incredibly polished compared with these other games. I'm not saying it definitely will take over the CCG market, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

Sail

popular

Heh. I was actually kind of good at that game. Or, at least, as "good" as someone can get at a game that involves so much randomness like a TCG. I got second place in a tournament, but lost because of a purely strategic error.

based upon

Didn't realize that existed. That's just dumb.

Andrew

I have a feeling that it will go the way of Pokemon where it will surge in popularity and then fall back down and rest in the top 3 with a smaller, but strongly devoted player base.

Usagimaru

At least it spawned some funny penny arcades.

Neito

At least it spawned somefunny penny arcades.

Superior

Usagimaru

At least it spawned somefunny penny arcades.

Superior

I probably should have mentioned that it was a 4 part series for people who don't keep up with the comic...

Sail

At least it spawned somefunny penny arcades.

Superior

I really wasn't much of a fan of these, to be honest. Pokemon inspired much better comics from them.

Infinity

Actually, I'm betting that this game will trivially overtake Magic. WoW has such a brand, and this game is so polished, that it may well become a juggernaught.

Do you really want to take that bet? Over 6 million players in 70 countries? Over 15 years of dominance? Multitudes of failed CCGS? Rym, you really have no place to talk about it, being rather far out of the loop; I would've understood you from an Alpha or Portal standpoint, but it's just simply not the same. There's a very good reason why so many people buy overpriced cardboard to play with. I understand that WoW has an insanely strong brand, but it's no match for tens of thousands of unique cards.

If you buy two preconstructed decks and play a few games with Scott, I'll take back what I said about you having no right to talk about it.

VentureJ

I'm far from out of the loop and even I know that interest in Magic is waning.

Rym

Do you really want to take that bet?

Definitely. WoW has very high name recognition in the mainstream media. Magic is largely unrecognized outside of gaming circles, and has fallen far in this regard from its peak popularity. Also, the WoW game, unlike most other CCGs, is targeting the same basic demographic as Magic. Most of these games go for the "grocery store" crowd.

Magic, as has been pointed out to us by many of its fans, is a great game in sealed-deck tournaments. This sort if play is not what the majority of people enjoy: they want to collect and collect and collect, build over time forever, and continually "buff." WoW is perfect at that, and the WoW CCG is clearly going in the same direction.

I also note that your "6 million" figure is from 2006, and was an unverified statement from the publisher. I have my doubts that it's still so high even if it were true, as I've only seen the number of Magic card dealers at non-Magic conventions drop over time, not increase. Magic players have their Magic tournaments, but WoW will cross-over and grab new people the way Magic did when I was a child and it first appeared.

I understand that WoW has an insanely strong brand, but it's no match for tens of thousands of unique cards.

Most of which aren't usable in tournaments, since they're from old sets. ^_~

If you buy two preconstructed decks and play a few games with Scott, I'll take back what I said about you having no right to talk about it.

It doesn't appear that any of the fundamental game mechanics have changed. Is anything actually different? The game was 80% deck construction when it was new. Actually playing with a deck was basically just testing its average draw against the average draw of the other deck: few non-obvious player decisions were necessary, and tactics were obvious and trivial. Decks were either clearly better, or else paper-rock-scissored with other decks. Once a game started, there was nothing to it: the only real "game" was in the sideboard and the deck management pre-game.

Has that changed?

lackofcheese

Hmm.
Then all you need is a "perfect" Magic-playing computer, which plays decks against one another in milliseconds. No-one would even need to actually *play* Magic anymore, just submit deck configurations into the computer.

chaosof99

I'm far from out of the loop and even I know that interest in Magic is waning.

I highly doubt that. Grand Prix participation has been on a steady rise and there hasn't been a European Grand Prix with less than 700 players in almost two years and the central and southern european ones often get 850-1000 players. Only last month was Grand Prix Vienna which attracted 1050 players and became the most successful Extended format Grand Prix in that regard.

Well, I guess you are far out of the loop.

Rym

Well, I guess you are far out of the loop.

If "Grand Prix" is what they call Magic tournaments now, then the vast majority of people out there are "out of the loop."

chaosof99

There are a few Levels of competitive Magic Tournaments. The highest two are Pro Tour and Grand Prix. The Pro Tour is held 5 times a year, counting the World Championship. To participate in a Pro Tour you have to qualify through Qualifier Tournaments (which also earns you the flight to the tournament) or high accumulative rating. To Qualify for the World Championship, you have to place in the Top 4 of your national tournament. Winning a Pro Tour earns you 40.000$.

The Grand Prix tournament was established in 97. It is held about 20 times a year all across the world (but mostly in the U.S., europe and Japan). Grand Prix' are open tournaments but you can play so called Grand Prix Trials. Winning such a trial gives you 3 byes for the Grand Prix, meaning that you automatically win the first three rounds without playing. The Top 32-64 players, depending on the number of players participating, are awarded price money. In addition, the top 8 of the tournament are invited to the next Pro Tour.

Grand Prix' and Pro Tours could be seen as MTG conventions. In addition to main tournaments, they also have side events and offer Artists signing cards. Of course, dealers are also present. Many also offer so called Gunslinging tables where you can play casual games against high level players, developers of the game or other "officials".

In terms of Difficulty and competition, magic tournaments pretty much go in this order:
1. World Championship
2. Pro Tour
3. Grand Prix
4/5. Pro Tour Qualifier/National Championship (dependent of where you live)
6/7. Grand Prix Trial/Qualifier Tournament to National Championship (again, dependent of where you live)
8. Friday Night Magic (a rather casual entry level tournaments held by participating game shops every Friday)

Infinity

Also, the WoW game, unlike most other CCGs, is targeting the same basic demographic as Magic. Most of these games go for the "grocery store" crowd.

Um, how? You can't buy Magic cards at grocery stores.

I also note that your "6 million" figure is from 2006, and was an unverified statement from thepublisher. I have my doubts that it's still so high even if it were true, as I've only seen the number of Magic card dealers at non-Magic conventions drop over time, not increase.

Who else is a better judge? Yes, I did realize that number was from 2006, but that was the most recent number I could find. Actually, Wizards of the Coast have been working towards the more grassroots level, with the recent announcement of Gleemax.com and the new Wizards Play Network, announced this past Monday. I don't see decline anywhere.

Most of which aren't usable in tournaments, since they're from old sets. ^_~

There are over 1,800 cards in Standard (the most newest rotation of cards) with the release of Shadowmoor in a couple weeks, and over 5,000 cards in Extended (the 2nd newest rotation of cards), and most cards are still legal for Vintage and Legacy. It's not like people really mind too much in casual play to see old cards, unless they are considered unfair by today's standards (i.e., banned in multiple formats).

It doesn't appear that any of the fundamental game mechanics have changed.

Not any huge changes; there's still life and creatures and whatnot, but there's tons of mechanics that over the years have pushed the envelops of what once seemed impossible.

Actually playing with a deck was basically just testing its average draw against the average draw of the other deck: few non-obvious player decisions were necessary, and tactics were obvious and trivial.

This sort of depends on what deck you play; you can play these decks that mostly play themselves, but you're never really forced to. Often times you'll need to decide whether to neutralize a threat or to hold out. You must understand how card advantage works, when to neutralize a card and when to play a threat, when to attack and when to hold back. There's certainly not a "best deck" in any format, and while the rock-paper-scissors still does exist, it often comes down to playskill first. Even in deck building, you need to understand how to balance your deck with early threats and late threats, big guys who dominate and stuff that kills creatures, not to mention land bases. It can be a bit intimidating, but it's not necessary to understand all of these things right when you start, just like you can't expect to know a new board game's strategies immediately.

A "Grand Prix" is just a name for a certain tournament held. It's no different than "the Olympics".

Andrew

OMg GUYz have Your heard aboot this cardz callEd blakLotus lololol

Rochelle

Um, how? You can't buy Magic cards at grocery stores.

If you count Target or Walmart as a grocery store, then yes you can.

Bronzdragon

Um, how? You can't buy Magic cards at grocery stores.

I think he meant other Trading Card Games, not magic.

HMTKSteve

But, can the gold farmers in China afford to play the game? How much of the WoW userbase is made up of bot accounts?

How much of the WoW CCG base is just WoW players hoping to score a card that they can redeem for an in-game item? Seeing those cards sell for thousands on eBay makes me consider buying a few boxes of cards.

Rym

Um, how? You can't buy Magic cards at grocery stores.

Um, that's exactly my point. Most CCGs do target a certain demographic, selling their cards in grocery stores and the like. Wow is targeting an altogether different demographic, one which overlaps heavily with Magic.

I think this impression of yours is founded in the fact that you haven't played Magic in years.

Fundamentally, that card is the same as any other Magic card that has come before: I see no novel or strategic game mechanics there.

This sort of depends on what deck you play; you can play these decks that mostly play themselves, but you're never really forced to. Often times you'll need to decide whether to neutralize a threat or to hold out...

My point is that those decisions are obvious and trivial 99% of the time, or else are arbitrary paper-rock-scissors decisions. There is very little strategic variance once the deck has been shuffled.

A "Grand Prix" is just a name for a certain tournament held. It's no different than "the Olympics".

My point is that almost no one who isn't a Magic player or very close to that culture would recognize that word, let alone even that Magic is a card game. My grandparents know what WoW is.

Not any huge changes; there's still life and creatures and whatnot, but there's tons of mechanics that over the years have pushed the envelops of what once seemed impossible.

I'd love to hear about one.

However, I don't agree with this being "Magic done better" and all comparisons that built upon this. It is an easier version of Magic, but not better.

Easier means better for the majority of people. They're both equally crappy from a pure "gaming" perspective in my opinion: one just has a much greater market potential and one is scarcely known outside of its dedicated player base.

HMTKSteve

The Star Wars CCG by Decipher gave Magic a serious run for its money. Too bad LucasFilm let the license pass to WoTC rather than let Decipher keep it. (They tried but LucasFilm would not let them renew.)

WoTC in turn killed the whole idea of the Star Wars CCG even though Decipher was more than willing to license the system to them. Many in the community believe that WoTC did not like the idea of another card game beating out Magic and worked with LucasFilm (through their new owner Hasbro) to give all of the gaming license for Star Wars products to Hasbro/WoTC.

WoTC killed the only CCG that involved strategy beyond just deck building.

If you may recall, when Nintendo decided not to allow WoTC to renew the Pokemon CCG license they flipped out with high ranking WoTC people going bad-shit crazy all over the Internet about how bad Nintendo was for daring to pull the license from them. They were very unhappy to see their cash cow taken away. It's not like WoTC had to do anything more than print the cards. They had no development costs.

Infinity

My point is that those decisions are obvious and trivial 99% of the time, or else are arbitrary paper-rock-scissors decisions. There is very little strategic variance once the deck has been shuffled.

But it's not obvious or trivial 99% of the time; often times you'll have to make a decision to go offensive or defensive, which can decide games. Sometimes you will have to decide whether your opponent has a card or doesn't. It's not just "swing with my 4/4 flyer b/c there's no other flyers in play", not that that doesn't happen, it's more of "I can hit you for 3 damage now or 5 damage next turn."

I'd love to hear about one.

This is a planeswalker; when it comes into play, you put 4 loyalty counter on it (signified by the bottom-right number). Each turn (including the turn it comes out) you may play 1 of the abilities; if you do, do its effect and add/subtract the number of loyalty counters on the left. You can also use him to take damage for you, but I won't go into that.

This is a card in the "pact" cycle from Future Sight; these are cards you play for free, "promising" to pay them next turn.

Hey, it's a big green creature! But wait, you can pay extra for it to make it bigger or tap your own creatures to help pay for it. Do you save mana to play more cards this turn, or do you put all your efforts into this guy, even though you may not be able to attack this turn?
Not to mention:
-A card that ends the turn immediately
-A card that lets you control another player's turn
-Cards that you pay for initially and wait a few turns for them to come into play
And I've got more to mention, but I think my point is proven. There are choices to make.

Σπεκωσποκ

And I've got more to mention, but I think my point is proven. There are choices to make.

Choices, yes, but Rym's point was more that once the game starts, there's really only a few viable strategies per deck, and even less when you consider your opponent's deck. The choices are more superficial than anything when compared to the construction of the deck, because of the limited strategic variation allowed by any given deck.

Infinity

Choices, yes, but Rym's point was more that once the game starts, there's really only a few viable strategies per deck, and even less when you consider your opponent's deck. The choices are more superficial than anything when compared to the construction of the deck, because of the limited strategic variation allowed by any given deck.

I realize that, but he's saying it's basically just automated, which it's not at all. Besides, what's wrong with choices when building a deck? Maybe he just makes crappy decks...