TF2: Payload and the medic updates

Omnutia

Well the update came and went, I logged onto a 24/7 Payload server and, as with most of the official maps, very nicely designed (though this is mostly due to the amount of play-testing valve do). People haven't quite got strategies worked out so things are a bit chaotic. One thing I find strange is that the assault style maps where each team has only one objective (attack or defend, as opposed to attack and defend) work much better as not all servers put a limit on the amount of engineers and having five engineers usually hampers your attempts to attack. Question: How many people look at their team and try and play a class that no-one else is playing to keep things even?

Onto the Medic updates. My biggest worry was that there were going to be people yelling over the voice chat telling heavies to use their fists instead of guns (Blunt Trauma) but even though I saw more medics than usual, the standard of TF2 player was just as high. The weapon I want most is the blutsauger (vampire?) gun, really handy for running away from pyros.
Your thoughts?

Also, TF2 is free to play May 2nd to May 4th

Sail

Your thoughts?

There is no reason to ever play this game again.

MitchyD

Aside from it being totally awesome. The new additions don't ruin anything, I can't understand why folks are so up in arms over it.

Omnutia

It was somewhat depressing that a few hours after the update comes out someone killed me with the Ubersaw (fyi: the last medic upgrade weapon requiring all 36 achievements).

Kiey

Aside from it being totally awesome. The new additions don't ruin anything, I can't understand why folks are so up in arms over it.

Agreed. I've still been greatly enjoying the game, and I have to say that just after the patches release it was rather hilarious/chaotic to see so many medics on each team.

Rym

Aside from it being totally awesome. The new additions don't ruin anything, I can't understand why folks are so up in arms over it

You basically have to "level up" to get them. This was a game largely of skill, but now the field is uneven in the favor of people who have taken the time to get their levels/achievements.

If I wanted to play WoW, I'd play WoW.

Dave

There's a cheat code to unlock the weapons from the start.

And if that's not legit enough for you I'm a hundred percent sure there's servers that still run the vanilla game.

I don't see why more content, delivered in this way, could ever be bad.

Apreche

I don't see why more content, delivered in this way, could ever be bad.

It changes the game. Ideally an fps will test skills of aiming, maneuvering, and close combat tactics. Content like this results in a game where those skills matter less, and factors such as amount of time spent playing, and rock/paper/scissors matter more. Also, by giving the extra stuff to just one of the classes, it creates an unbalance in the game that results in terrible play, at least on public servers.

chaosof99

I don't see why more content, delivered in this way, could ever be bad.

It changes the game. Ideally an fps will test skills of aiming, maneuvering, and close combat tactics. Content like this results in a game where those skills matter less, and factors such as amount of time spent playing, and rock/paper/scissors matter more. Also, by giving the extra stuff to just one of the classes, it creates an unbalance in the game that results in terrible play, at least on public servers.

And you base that on what since you haven't played it? What if it gives the medic an extra push it needed? What if it's relatively trivial? What if it adds a whole new dimension to the game? What if your ideals are not entirely correct?

I haven't played it myself, so I am not qualified to judge it either, but from experience I know that Valve makes a shitton of playtesting and always looks to keep things balanced. I honestly doubt that it really makes the skills you mentioned matter less, but rather factor in an additional value.

Apreche

And you base that on what since you haven't played it? What if it gives the medic an extra push it needed? What if it's relatively trivial? What if it adds a whole new dimension to the game? What if your ideals are not entirely correct?

I don't have to play it to know. I read the rules. The rules of a game are a game. If you understand game theory, you don't actually have to play a game to understand it. All you need to do is read the rules. Based on the rule changes I have read, I know how those rules changes will affect play.

Omnutia

It changes the game. Ideally an fps tailored specifically to Scott's tastes will test skills of aiming, maneuvering, and close combat tactics. Content like this results in a game where those skills matter less, and factors such as amount of time spent playing, and rock/paper/scissors matter more. Also, by giving the extra stuff to just one of the classes, it creates an unbalance in the game that results in terrible play, at least on public servers.

Yes I know it should be "I" instead of Scott but it's easer to understand.

I haven't played it myself, so I am not qualified to judge it either, but from experience I know that Valve makes a shitton of playtesting and always looks to keep things balanced. I honestly doubt that it really makes the skills you mentioned matter less, but rather factor in an additional value.

Would it be possible to set up a server that can be used to playtest and the map can be changed often? Lot's of maps only have two or three alphas and betas but I'd like to do a server that can play test hundreds of times.

Apreche

I like how the same people complain about the blue shell in Mario Kart because it takes skill out of the game, but then they go and praise TF2 for taking skill out of the game.

Kiey

I like how the same people complain about the blue shell in Mario Kart because it takes skill out of the game, but then they go and praise TF2 for taking skill out of the game.

Because the blue shell requires no skill at all. In TF2 the skill floor is lower yes, but from playing a lot I've found that a skilled player can completely alter a game. A skilled player in TF2 will 90% of the time defeat an unskilled one. And the skill in TF2 is more then just shooting, its team tactics, knowledge of the map, and tactics involving where to attack from and how to.

This new pack doesn't "level up," they are weapons which you don't even need. The only thing they will really do is give people who play medic (seriously play medic not all the people playing it now,) more options in the future. They will provide more tactical options, but they aren't really better.

Apreche

And the skill in TF2 is more then just shooting, its team tactics, knowledge of the map, and tactics involving where to attack from and how to.

Knowledge is not skill. Knowledge is knowledge.

They will provide more tactical options, but they aren't really better.

More tactical options is in and of itself, better.

Omnutia

And the skill in TF2 is more then just shooting, its team tactics, knowledge of the map, and tactics involving where to attack from and how to.

Knowledge is not skill. Knowledge is knowledge.

They will provide more tactical options, but they aren't really better.

More tactical options is in and of itself, better.

If you really think the game is that bad, don't play. We think it is a good game where skill and teamwork are essential. Scott, if you lack the skill to take down two full sized sentries as a Pyro on half health and yet complain at the game for not testing your twitchy finger then fine, you just have a different kind of skill and can't cut it when the odds aren't completely even.

As a side note, today through Sunday, anyone who hasn't bought The Orange Box can try it free.

Addition: I have just realised how hypocritical it is for you to complain about sports only ever seeking to be that bit better than the other guy yet what you want from video games is essentially the same thing.

chaosof99

I don't have to play it to know. I read the rules. The rules of a game are a game. If you understand game theory, you don't actually have to play a game to understand it. All you need to do is read the rules. Based on the rule changes I have read, I know how those rules changes will affect play.

You don't know shit. Knowledge is information gathered through experience. You don't have knowledge, you only have assumptions. Knowing the rules of a game gives you the information of how it is played, it does not give you concrete evidence if it is fun or not or if it is unbalanced or not until you played it.

However, I actually don't want you to play the game or tell me what you thought of it, because I don't believe that you will be rational in your judgment due to your assumption of the game being bad and the previous instance of your person disappointment in the game.

HMTKSteve

Learning game theory is a bad thing for gamers. If you want to enjoy your games do not learn game theory. Once you do you can never enter the world of blissful ignorance again.

When you know and understand game theory you no longer need to play games to understand how the game will play. As soon as you see dice are the main mechanic in a game than you know a large part of the game will be based on luck. If a game has drafting rules there is a very good chance that once the drafting is done you can tell who will win (Settlers anyone?)

You might not like the fact that Scott sits here and says he does not need to play a game to know how it will play but he speaks the truth.

You remind me of a guy I knew in the service. He was so happy when his wife sent him some nude photos of herself in the mail. He was real happy until someone asked him, "so, who took those photographs?"

Ignorance is bliss.

Apreche

You don't know shit.

Here's the shit I know. I know that I have played TF2 in the past. I know that TF2 had an extremely low skill cap. The models and hitboxes are huge. The characters are slow. The aim is inaccurate. Most weapons do not require aiming. Even with an organized map, the optimium strategies to attain victory were obvious and trivial to achieve with any amount of team coordination.

I know what has been changed. They have given one class in the game additional weapons options. These options are only available to players who play the game not to win, but to achieve certain other goals, to get achievements. Thus, there is an advantage give to players not based on their reaction times, speed, aiming skill, etc. but based on the amount of time and dedication they have poured into the game.

Whether the additional tactical options are balanced or not doesn't matter. If they aren't balanced, they ruin the game for obvious reasons. Even if they are balanced, they are still additional options, and additional options are always an advantage unless they are identical to existing options. If they are not identical to existing options, then they are an advantage. If they are identical, then they aren't really additional options, are they?

I know what the game was like before the changes. I know what the changes were. The changes do not fix any of the problems the game had originally. They introduce new problems. It's simple deduction that the game still has an incredibly low skill cap compared the fpses of yore such as Tribes 2 and Quake 2. A low skill cap means that while there is skill involved in the game, it doesn't take a large amount of skill to achieve optimum gameplay. In other words, even though someone like Fatality will kick my ass at Quake, in TF2 we will be evenly matched. Even though he is more skilled than I am, we both have enough skill to play the game as best it can be played. Some other factor besides raw fps skill will determine victory.

If you still think I need to play the game to attain some secret knowledge, let me ask you this. What will I learn by playing the game that I don't already know?

chaosof99

As said, you don't know this. You only assume it.

Unfortunately, since you have gone out of your way so much just to hate on a game that you only have partially played, even if you go back to try it with the changes to form a concrete and valid opinion, your opinion can't be taken seriously any more. It would basically be like letting Jack Thompson decide on the ESRB rating of a GTA title.

Apreche

As said, you don't know this. You only assume it.

If I have one orange, and Sally gives me one orange, I assume I would have two oranges. Of course, I can't actually know until I have the oranges in front of me.

Omnutia

Scott, yo may not be aware but not everyone wants a twitch finger FPS. Team Fortress 2 is a team game an as such should be played by players working in a team. I can understand you hunger for finger twitching action but you have always got Counterstrike. TF2 requires a lot of skill, you just use the term to mean what you think of as skill to broadly.
My theory is that you've conditioned yourself to like a certain kind of game and now feel frustrated when you like a game that goes against what you have come to expect. If you want twictchy trigger finger action then I suggest you try Empires (I found the secret to stop it freezing on you while loading is to change your resolution up and then back down.) which might be more your kind of team game.

In addition: The medic weapons aren't that much of an improvement. The Critzcreig leaves you open to being killed while using it and sucks for turrets around corners. The vampire gun doesn't crit which means you loose your advantage when attacking someone but gain it when running away. The Ubersaw isn't as useful as it sounds. If you're a medic, getting out of a melee intact is a very rare occurrence unless you are the ones being attacked.

chaosof99

First, your comparison doesn't really make sense since this a bit more complex matter than that.
Second, what if Sally lied and never gave you the second orange? What if she took it again? What if it was only your assumption that Sally is going to give you a second Orange, but she never had the intention to do so? I guess you will only know for certain once you experienced Sally giving you the second orange, won't you?
Third, I just discovered the problem: You assume that you have absolute and complete information about the changes that the new update on TF2 brings, which I honestly doubt.

Linkigi(Link-ee-jee)

Also, what if Sally gave you a spoiled, disgusting orange that wasn't really worth eating so in effect you still only had one orange?

Omnutia

Oh joy, We've descended too bickering over analogies. Way to go guys.

Apreche

Third, I just discovered the problem: You assume that you have absolute and complete information about the changes that the new update on TF2 brings, which I honestly doubt.

Did they double the speed of the game, make all the models smaller, and increase the accuracy of the weapons? If the answer is no, what other information do I need?

Scott, yo may not be aware but not everyone wants a twitch finger FPS.

I'm well aware. I just see no value in such a game. If you are looking for an entertaining diversion to distract you from the real world, by all means play your WoW and your TF2. For someone like me who is looking to test my mettle against the mettle of others, these games are a waste of time. My only beef is with people claiming their diversions are quality tests of mettle.

Omnutia

I'm well aware. I just see no value in such a game. If you are looking for an entertaining diversion to distract you from the real world, by all means play your WoW and your TF2. For someone like me who is looking to test my mettle against the mettle of others, these games are a waste of time. My only beef is with people claiming their diversions are quality tests of mettle.

If you define all that is worth about FPSs as how fast you can move your hand then fine, you are just missing out on a lot. It's a game, enjoy it. Like you do with all those other games you play.
Can you honestly not get enjoyment out of a game that doesn't let you grind for hours to achieve something pretty pointless in the real world then I think Rym needs to give you hugs more often.

Apreche

Like you do with all those other games you play.

You realize that most of the games we have we don't play anymore. Once we figure out and achieve optimal play, we basically abandon the game. Hence, we have a shelf full of board games that are never played, and plenty of video games that we are done with. We've been done with TF2 for quite some time.

HMTKSteve

Like you do with all those other games you play.

You realize that most of the games we have we don't play anymore. Once we figure out and achieve optimal play, we basically abandon the game. Hence, we have a shelf full of board games that are never played, and plenty of video games that we are done with. We've been done with TF2 for quite some time.

Which begs the question of why you buy video games rather than use a service like GameFly?

Apreche

Which begs the question of why you buy video games rather than use a service like GameFly?

I heard they suck. Also, I don't want video games that often.

Omnutia

For someone like me who is looking to test my mettle against the mettle of others, these games are a waste of time.

If all you consider mettle is your trigger finger then by all means, you can't see the aim of the game, Team Fortress.

Apreche

If all you consider mettle is your trigger finger then by all means, you can't see the aim of the game, Team Fortress.

There's no team either. Even if you play a clan game with coordinated teams, having an optimal strategy on the available maps is trivial. It will mostly likely devolve into a stalemate, or will carry on until someone screws up. Compare that to a real team game like Natural Selection, Tribes 2, or even Counter-Strike. It's not even close. The team tactics of TF2 are a joke.