I don't know if my information is correct, but isn't this the opposite? If I recall correctly an animal is not kosher if it suffers. They kill chickens by near-instant decapitation with special knives under rabbinical supervision. I think they have some rule like, if the chicken squawks, then it wasn't a kosher kill. I'm also pretty sure that in non-kosher slaugherhouses they just hit the animals on the head with a hammer, or whatever is most efficient. I've always been under the impression that at least the killing portion of kosher meat production was more humane. Anyone want to do some research?
According to the Humane Slaughter Act, all animals must be unconscious before they are killed which is usually by exsanguination via cuts to the arteries. However, according to Kosher rules the animal must be conscious before slaughter thus it experiences all the pain associated with the bleeding out. It does look like Kosher slaughterhouses require extremely sharp knives which can be quite efficient and quick, however they animals must be conscious before the slaughter according toShechita.
OK, I also did not know that part of kosher law. At the very least, you should render them unconscious first.
I'll get to it eventually. Can you give me the gist of it?
SpoilA character is dying in the wilderness and needs food. Some animals come to help. All of the animals bring gifts for the person. However, one animal doesn't have any gifts to give, so it gives itself.
Later on a different group of characters are in a similar situation. They finally find some food, snake eggs. However, the snake eggs are guarded by their mommy. One of the characters that can talk to animals talks to the snake. He ends up letting the snake eat him in exchange for the snake giving eggs to his friends./Spoil
I'm not sure really sure how that relates. Maybe when I read the book, I'll understand differently. It sounds like in those situations, there are no other options. People living day to day, at least in first world countries, can easily avoid eating meat.
I don't mean to preach -- I just feel that there's a disconnect there when a person believes that animals are worthy of enough consideration to avoid making them suffer unnecessarily, but not worthy of enough consideration to just not eat them. That's also making them suffer unnecessarily.
Lettuce is also a living organism; do you think it doesn't suffer when you rip it out of the ground and tear it apart?
The only reason you're OK with eating vegetables is because you can't hear them scream.
Do you even really mean that?
Plants don't have any kind of physiological structure that we have any reason to believe would support consciousness. Why would plants have evolved the ability to feel pain without the ability to do something about it?
If that's true, then why is a person who chooses to eat meat, when they can choose not to eat meat, not evil?
I would say that eating animals is not evil in itself, it is part of what makes us human. We are omnivores and our bodies adapted to eat both meat and plant life. When you look at it, meat and animal products are the major foods which give us the full amino acid profile which we require to sustain life while most plant products only provide partial profiles of the essential amino acids.
To say that we are somehow evil just because we eat meat is no more true than saying that other carnivores and omnivores are evil for eating their prey. However, because we are intelligent we can learn to respect and revere our environment. Animals provide for us a means to live and we must respect them but we must also acknowledge that we are animals and we feed on prey to survive.
Lettuce is also a living organism; do you think it doesn't suffer when you rip it out of the ground and tear it apart?
The only reason you're OK with eating vegetables is because you can't hear them scream.
Do you even really mean that?
Plants don't have any kind of physiological structure that we have any reason to believe would support consciousness. Why would plants have evolved the ability to feel pain without the ability to do something about it?
Not entirely, but I'm only half-joking. You're making a lot of assumptions in this post.
"Pain" as it exists in any animal is not a sign of consciousness; it's a biological response to alert the creature that an injury has occurred. It's an injury-response mechanism. All animals have one; if they didn't, injuries would build up and ultimately kill the organism, without ever giving them a chance to remove themselves from the harm. The ability to react to a threat is paramount to a creature's survival.
Plants DO have injury response mechanisms, and do react to stimuli. A classic example is the function of the molecule ethylene. This molecule is responsible for leaf abscission (leaves falling) and fruit ripening. However, ethylene also serves as a warning signal; many species of plants release ethylene when they're being invaded by parasites, and plants in the nearby area that receive the ethylene signal begin producing defensive compounds to stave off the pest invasion. That's easily as sophisticated of a threat response system as any mammal has evolved.
There's a lot more that plants do involving reactions to stimuli, like the whole process of losing leaves, growing in the direction of light sources, and wilting. When a leaf is injured, the plant cuts off the flow of nutrients to the area of injury and allows it to die, preserving the rest of the leaf. These processes are all incredibly sophisticated and just as complicated as those systems found in so-called "sentient" animals.
My whole point is that you have no evidence that a cow is any more "sentient" than a plant. In fact, I'd argue that a lot of dairy cattle are actually LESS sentient than most plants, if only because they're almost totally incapable of surviving without outside assistance. The concept of "sentience" is tricky, because we have no real definition. If you want to talk about feeling pain, you have to realize what "pain" is, and the realize that plants have a system that does the same thing. If you want to talk about complex thoughts, you never know what a cow is thinking, and they certainly can't verbalize them any more than a plant can. You can read the facial expressions on a cow and maybe get a sense of what they're "feeling," but it's wildly inaccurate, and history is full of examples of people who thought they understood wild animals but wound up being injured or killed by them anyway (RIP Steve Irwin).
You have no more actual evidence that a cow is suffering than you do that a plant is suffering. You have to kill another living thing in order to survive, period. We should try to minimize those things that we perceive to be "suffering" in animals, but understand that we don't really know what's going on there. You can claim it up and down, but you really have no idea if a cow (or any livestock) is truly "sentient" or not, and if you think you do, you're wrong.
Also, seriously, meat and eggs are the most efficient natural sources of protein for humans. You CAN get your proteins from beans and rice, but it's a lot less efficient overall. You don't have to eat crazy amounts of meat, but eating some is the best way to get the protein you need.
Also, seriously, meat and eggs are the most efficient natural sources of protein for humans. You CAN get your proteins from beans and rice, but it's a lot less efficient overall. You don't have to eat crazy amounts of meat, but eating some is the best way to get the protein you need.
I appreciate the time you took to write this post, but I don't have the background to get into an argument about the science of sentience. If you think that lettuce is more sentient than cows, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
As for the efficiency of plant-based protein, though -- the issue is WAY overblown. It's true that animal products are the most concentrated sources of protein available. But as a person living in the first world, you'd practically have to make a serious effort to be protein-deficient. I've been a vegan for about 4 years, and I've gained about 30 pounds in that time without getting any fatter, and without making any effort to get protein.
Not all lettuce is more sentient than cows; it's just that some cows are really really dumb. The whole point is that you really can't assert with any authority that a cow is any more or less sentient than a plant. I can agree to disagree, though.
And if you're on a strict vegan diet, you should be making an effort to get protein because that diet is so protein-poor. You can't make it all up in soy, either; there are side effects to excess consumption of soy protein (for males, at least), and it's really not as effective overall as animal-based or dairy proteins.
And if you're on a strict vegan diet, you should be making an effort to get protein because that diet is so protein-poor. You can't make it all up in soy, either; there are side effects to excess consumption of soy protein (for males, at least), and it's really not as effective overall as animal-based or dairy proteins.
+30 pounds of muscle = plenty of protein. Unless you're eating a diet composed almost entirely of french fries and soda, you're getting enough protein.
And if you're on a strict vegan diet, you should be making an effort to get protein because that diet is so protein-poor. You can't make it all up in soy, either; there are side effects to excess consumption of soy protein (for males, at least), and it's really not as effective overall as animal-based or dairy proteins.
+30 pounds of muscle = plenty of protein. Unless you're eating a diet composed almost entirely of french fries and soda, you're getting enough protein.
Depends on how much more muscle you want to add on, how much you have now, and so forth.
I consume at least 150 grams of protein a day. How do you pull that off on a vegan diet?
Depends on how much more muscle you want to add on, how much you have now, and so forth.
I consume at least 150 grams of protein a day. How do you pull that off on a vegan diet?
I don't particularly care whether I add any more muscle or not. I work out to be healthy and strong, and if I get muscle, bonus. I don't know how much protein I get -- I'm sure I don't get 150 grams per day. Certainly, it'd be difficult to be a bodybuilder on a vegan diet. But I'm obviously getting all the protein my body needs to maintain, and more.
Depends on how much more muscle you want to add on, how much you have now, and so forth.
I consume at least 150 grams of protein a day. How do you pull that off on a vegan diet?
I don't particularly care whether I add any more muscle or not. I work out to be healthy and strong, and if I get muscle, bonus. I don't know how much protein I get -- I'm sure I don't get 150 grams per day. Certainly, it'd be difficult to be a bodybuilder on a vegan diet. But I'm obviously getting all the protein my body needs to maintain, and more.
That's probably true. It all depends on the physiology of the individual; I could not maintain my lean mass on a vegan diet, certainly, but someone about Rym's build might be able to.
There are benefits and risks associated with any diet, and those risks and benefits vary from individual to individual. What works for you may not work for someone else, so you can't really say that nobody in a first world country needs to eat meat. You might be able to get away with it, but not everyone else can.
I'm tempted to say, "Pics or it didn't happen."
Let's see. Here's my typical diet for a day (when I'm being good). I should also point out that ideally, I do this while going to the gym four times a week.
Breakfast: 1 cup fat-free yogurt 1 cup Kashi High-Protein and High-Fiber cereal 1/4 cup of walnuts 2-ish tablespoons of honey (or an equivalent caloric amount of fresh berries or bananas) Protein: 30 grams Calories: ~500
Snack: 3-4 tablespoons fruit and nut trail mix Protein: 10 grams Calories: ~200
Comments
Later on a different group of characters are in a similar situation. They finally find some food, snake eggs. However, the snake eggs are guarded by their mommy. One of the characters that can talk to animals talks to the snake. He ends up letting the snake eat him in exchange for the snake giving eggs to his friends./Spoil
I don't mean to preach -- I just feel that there's a disconnect there when a person believes that animals are worthy of enough consideration to avoid making them suffer unnecessarily, but not worthy of enough consideration to just not eat them. That's also making them suffer unnecessarily.
The only reason you're OK with eating vegetables is because you can't hear them scream.
Plants don't have any kind of physiological structure that we have any reason to believe would support consciousness. Why would plants have evolved the ability to feel pain without the ability to do something about it?
To say that we are somehow evil just because we eat meat is no more true than saying that other carnivores and omnivores are evil for eating their prey. However, because we are intelligent we can learn to respect and revere our environment. Animals provide for us a means to live and we must respect them but we must also acknowledge that we are animals and we feed on prey to survive.
"Pain" as it exists in any animal is not a sign of consciousness; it's a biological response to alert the creature that an injury has occurred. It's an injury-response mechanism. All animals have one; if they didn't, injuries would build up and ultimately kill the organism, without ever giving them a chance to remove themselves from the harm. The ability to react to a threat is paramount to a creature's survival.
Plants DO have injury response mechanisms, and do react to stimuli. A classic example is the function of the molecule ethylene. This molecule is responsible for leaf abscission (leaves falling) and fruit ripening. However, ethylene also serves as a warning signal; many species of plants release ethylene when they're being invaded by parasites, and plants in the nearby area that receive the ethylene signal begin producing defensive compounds to stave off the pest invasion. That's easily as sophisticated of a threat response system as any mammal has evolved.
There's a lot more that plants do involving reactions to stimuli, like the whole process of losing leaves, growing in the direction of light sources, and wilting. When a leaf is injured, the plant cuts off the flow of nutrients to the area of injury and allows it to die, preserving the rest of the leaf. These processes are all incredibly sophisticated and just as complicated as those systems found in so-called "sentient" animals.
My whole point is that you have no evidence that a cow is any more "sentient" than a plant. In fact, I'd argue that a lot of dairy cattle are actually LESS sentient than most plants, if only because they're almost totally incapable of surviving without outside assistance. The concept of "sentience" is tricky, because we have no real definition. If you want to talk about feeling pain, you have to realize what "pain" is, and the realize that plants have a system that does the same thing. If you want to talk about complex thoughts, you never know what a cow is thinking, and they certainly can't verbalize them any more than a plant can. You can read the facial expressions on a cow and maybe get a sense of what they're "feeling," but it's wildly inaccurate, and history is full of examples of people who thought they understood wild animals but wound up being injured or killed by them anyway (RIP Steve Irwin).
You have no more actual evidence that a cow is suffering than you do that a plant is suffering. You have to kill another living thing in order to survive, period. We should try to minimize those things that we perceive to be "suffering" in animals, but understand that we don't really know what's going on there. You can claim it up and down, but you really have no idea if a cow (or any livestock) is truly "sentient" or not, and if you think you do, you're wrong.
Also, seriously, meat and eggs are the most efficient natural sources of protein for humans. You CAN get your proteins from beans and rice, but it's a lot less efficient overall. You don't have to eat crazy amounts of meat, but eating some is the best way to get the protein you need.
As for the efficiency of plant-based protein, though -- the issue is WAY overblown. It's true that animal products are the most concentrated sources of protein available. But as a person living in the first world, you'd practically have to make a serious effort to be protein-deficient. I've been a vegan for about 4 years, and I've gained about 30 pounds in that time without getting any fatter, and without making any effort to get protein.
And if you're on a strict vegan diet, you should be making an effort to get protein because that diet is so protein-poor. You can't make it all up in soy, either; there are side effects to excess consumption of soy protein (for males, at least), and it's really not as effective overall as animal-based or dairy proteins.
In any case, I'll agree to disagree.
I consume at least 150 grams of protein a day. How do you pull that off on a vegan diet?
There are benefits and risks associated with any diet, and those risks and benefits vary from individual to individual. What works for you may not work for someone else, so you can't really say that nobody in a first world country needs to eat meat. You might be able to get away with it, but not everyone else can. Let's see. Here's my typical diet for a day (when I'm being good). I should also point out that ideally, I do this while going to the gym four times a week.
Breakfast:
1 cup fat-free yogurt
1 cup Kashi High-Protein and High-Fiber cereal
1/4 cup of walnuts
2-ish tablespoons of honey (or an equivalent caloric amount of fresh berries or bananas)
Protein: 30 grams
Calories: ~500
Snack:
3-4 tablespoons fruit and nut trail mix
Protein: 10 grams
Calories: ~200
Lunch:
Sandwich on whole grain bread (ham/turkey/roast beef/tuna salad/chicken salad, baby spinach, red onion, tomato, fat-free mayo/mustard, 2 slices provolone/swiss)
soy chips
Protein: 60+ grams
Calories: ~1000
Late-afternoon snack:
more trail mix, about 2 tablespoons
calories: ~100
protein: 5-6 grams
Pre-gym:
Pure Protein energy bar
Protein: 20 grams
calories: 200
Dinner:
8-ish ounces of grilled chicken/lean ham/tuna salad over a large salad
fat-free dressing
some croutons
Protein:~40 - 60 grams
Calories: ~500
Total: 160 - 180 grams of protein
Calories: ~2500
That's just a quick estimate, but my amounts might be off in a few places, so I reason it's 150 - 165 grams of protein a day.