This flamewar brought to you by: Abortion

trogdor9

Ok, time for some intelligent discussion around here. Do you or do you not support induced abortion? Why/Why not? Are there specific times when you do support abortion while you do not the rest of the time?

Flame on.

La Petit Mort

I do not support it for one reason which happenes to be the subtitle of a game.

"For every choice there's a consequence."

Andrew

"For every choice there's a consequence."

I'm not sure if I agree with using that one reason, cause I'm not sure if it applies, or rather that is too broad of an answer. Sure it's true that what you do effects the future, but in what way? Can you be more specific?


As for me I'm fairly neutral on the point because:
A) I am not able to have babies.
I am not retarded enough to have babies outside of wedlock (i.e birth control, condoms).

However! I do acknowledge the fact that nothing is 100% fail safe. In this case I feel that it should be up to the couple to decide what to do. In this point I think it is similar to free speech and the first amendment. If you don't want to watch explicit stuff, change the channel! Likewise, I think that if you don't believe in abortion, don't get one done. It is not our place to tell others if they can or cannot have an abortion.

Personally though, I would not support an abortion if I was confronted with the situation because I feel that other methods such as adoption are a more viable solution. But if you want/need to have one, go right ahead.

trogdor9

Yeah, I agree with WaterIsPoison, I am fairly neutral, except for emergencies and cases of rape when I definitly support getting an abortion.

La Petit Mort

A sudden change of views had occurred inside me.

tuttle88

I don't think that anyone really knows what they would do until they are in the situation. I imagine that it would be the hardest decision in the world. I would prefer someone aborted an unwanted baby than have it and neglect or abuse it. However my main argument for abortion is simply that banning it doesn't work. People still go and have them, but intead of having them in a safe environment with psychological support they go to some dingy place and get it done dangerously.
We recently had the RU486 debate here in Australia Tony Abbot out health minister who's qualifications for the position is that he is an economist and a lawyer (and almost became a catholic priest). It became a moral debate. That is ridiculous, every other decision on medication is a medical decision. If we start making medical decisions moral decisions we're gonna live in crazyland...oh wait hang on a sec.

Shaun

The major problem with the abortion debate is that there are no clear answers to the following two questions: What does it mean to be alive, and what does it mean to be human? I personally hold that neither of these are either/or questions, but the majority of Americans most likely disagree with me.

I will always support the right of a woman to have an abortion. To do otherwise is to infringe on anothers freedom of choice.

Nazhuret

I showed up for the flame war... What the hell?

Seriously, though...

I don't know that it can be said that I support abortion. I don't necessarily "support" amputation either but I realize that sometimes it is a choice between getting your arm chopped off on purpose now or having something even worse happen to you later.
In that same way, I support the person's right to choose which of the myriad of horrible things they want to have happen to them if they get pregnant when they were not planning to.

Short answer? Yes, I support abortion.

EsonLinji

I don't encourage abortion. In the unlikely situation where someone asked advice on if they should have one, I would probably reccomend against it (not considering any exceptional circumstances). However, I'm not going to stop someone from having one if they so decide.

Rym

I support allowing anyone who desires an abortion to have one for any reason. My reasoning is very simple:

• I do not consider a zygote to be sentient.
• I do not consider a developing human that cannot yet survive unassisted (with regard to moment-to-moment life, such as breathing, not long-term survivability, such as food acquisition) to be sentient.
• Parents who desire an abortion will not likely provide fully for a child they are forced to bear to term against their wills.
• A parent should always have the choice to terminate a pregnancy in the event of a debilitating congenital birth defect being detected.
• A mother should always have the choice to terminate a pregnancy in the event that bringing it to term could endanger her life.

TheWhaleShark

To back Rym up, a zygote is actually incapable of carrying out the processes that govern sentience until, I think, the second trimester. Even then, most of the brain function of a fetus is dedicated to autonomous functions; the processes that we normally consider to be indicative of sentience don't really occur until very late into development.

Hell, I could probably argue that most people never attain sentience, but that's just misanthropy talking.

Realisitically speaking, a zygote or a fetus is not a special, precious thing. If you believe in a soul or something, you could say that makes the fetus special, but you can't apply that belief globally, since many people do not share said view.

I can see wanting to disallow abortion to encourage more personal responsibility in people (i.e., don't have unprotected sex unless you're willing to risk a child), but that simply would not occur, and the danger of forcing children to be born to negligent parents far outweighs the slight possibility that you could get people to consider the ramifications of their actions.

Of course, getting an abortion for a child that you cannot care for can be seen as taking responsibility for it, so really, there aren't very many reasons to disallow abortions aside from the ick factor.

Johannes Uglyfred II

Yup. Regardless of what anyone believes about abortion personally or morally, the government does not have the right to tell women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies. I think legalizing it is important, so that procedures can be regulated, and that people who would have done it anyways can avoid dangerous medical situations like those in, oh, say, Dirty Dancing.

Pro-lifers could keep protesting abortion on a moral ground, even if it was legalized. Social groups could still spend money to educate people on alternatives. But it is NOT the government's place to legislate morality.

I think it was Al Gore who said this during a presidential debate on abortion: "The choice should be between a woman, her god, and her doctor [And not the government.]"

Erwin

I do not accept abortion because I believe in the preservation of human life, granted I am a guy therefore I can't have an abortion myself. I can't force others to believe in what I believe that would make me a monster.

Josh Bytes

I'm pro safe sex and sex education. To bad Pro Lifers in general push for abstinence as the only option.

ninjarabbi

I'm in the "It's up to the couple" boat but I don't think it should be used as a main birth control method for obvious reasons.

To bad Pro Lifers in general push for abstinence as the only option.

At my school the teachers said they, couldn't legally/weren't allowed to, teach about anything but abstinence-only sex education. And when we were taught back then, most of the talk about condoms was how they are so ineffective and such (aka lies).

TheWhaleShark

Y'know, every now and again, it's fun to look back at an old thread to see what you were espousing, and see if your views have changed between then and now.

Nope. Still support abortion completely. In fact, I think I might support it more than I did before. We should start giving out coupons or something.

Starfox

I do not accept abortion because I believe in the preservation of human life,

What qualifies as human life? Every month a girl isn't pregnant, a human egg cell dies. Is that ending a human life? What about a culture of human cells in a petri dish? In vitro fertilization by default kills off several "potential" humans. What about HeLa cells? They came from a human. Where do you draw the line?

Walker

I do not accept abortion because I believe in the preservation of human life,

What qualifies as human life? Every month a girl isn't pregnant, a human egg cell dies. Is that ending a human life? What about a culture of human cells in a petri dish? In vitro fertilization by default kills off several "potential" humans. What aboutHeLacells? They came from a human. Where do you draw the line?

Are we to declare every teenage boy on the planet a mass murderer?

WindUpBird

I debated this in class one time with a statement I still stand by:

"...if one cell can define a "baby", why is a complex entity of 50 trillion cells and multiple years of memories treated like just so much meat?..Ending war and torture take precedence over ending abortion."

In addition, I agree with Rym on all points for all of his reasons.

ladyobsolete

I side with tuttle88 and Hillary Clinton:
"I believe abortion should be safe, legal and rare"

I don't know if I personally could do it but I wouldn't deprive someone else of a safe environment should they choose to have an abortion.

Victor Frost

I debated this in class one time with a statement I still stand by:

"...if one cell can define a "baby", why is a complex entity of 50 trillion cells and multiple years of memories treated like just so much meat?..Ending war and torture take precedence over ending abortion."

In addition, I agree with Rym on all points for all of his reasons.

Word.

Irascible

I support allowing anyone who desires an abortion to have one for any reason. My reasoning is very simple:

• I do not consider a zygote to be sentient.
• I do not consider a developing human that cannot yet survive unassisted (with regard to moment-to-moment life, such as breathing, not long-term survivability, such as food acquisition) to be sentient.
• Parents who desire an abortion will not likely provide fully for a child they are forced to bear to term against their wills.
• A parent should always have the choice to terminate a pregnancy in the event of a debilitating congenital birth defect being detected.
• A mother should always have the choice to terminate a pregnancy in the event that bringing it to term could endanger her life.

I totally agree with your reasons but feel the need to add two more

1. Regardless of debates over sentience a zygote or a fetus they are both incapable of being self aware and thus, cannot be considered human as the defining characteristic of humans is self awareness

2. A parent should always have the choice to terminate a pregnancy if they are unable to provide for the child

Apreche

1. Regardless of debates over sentience a zygote or a fetus they are both incapable of being self aware and thus, cannot be considered human as the defining characteristic of humans is self awareness

What about an adult human who gets brain damage and is no longer self aware? Are they no longer human, and therefore, it is ok to kill them? What about a person who have severe mental disabilities, are they not human? What about really really smart animals, like a parrot or something. Some of them are as smart as Kindergarten-aged humans. Are they human?

Irascible

1. Regardless of debates over sentience a zygote or a fetus they are both incapable of being self aware and thus, cannot be considered human as the defining characteristic of humans is self awareness

What about an adult human who gets brain damage and is no longer self aware? Are they no longer human, and therefore, it is ok to kill them? What about a person who have severe mental disabilities, are they not human? What about really really smart animals, like a parrot or something. Some of them are as smart as Kindergarten-aged humans. Are they human?

If an adult human has suffered brain damage to the point where the are no longer self aware they would be brain dead, and life support and so yes to people such as myself to whom there is no moral dilemma in allowing them to die.
No animal, regardless of intelligence has shown anything more than sentience and is incapable of positioning themselves in time to construct complex goals like a human does (current studies into apes have been inconclusive as to exactly where apes exist)
Now concerning people with severe mental disabilities, I have worked and encountered with people who have severe mental handicaps but I have never met one who is impaired enough to be considered lacking self awareness but for the sack of argument it could be said that if a person was alive with that level of disability they could not be considered a complete human because they would be entirely dependent on either other human or artificial aid to survive.

However, I am not arguing for some kind of forced euthanasia because their would be no point to it in current society and nor do I want this to turn into some bizarre anti handicapped thread

If you're interested in this matter Scott I highly suggest reading the works of Peter Singer

Jason

"No one is pro-abortion."
- Barack Obama

Omnutia

"No one is pro-abortion."
- Barack Obama

How about some context for that.

Neito

"No one is pro-abortion."
- Barack Obama

How about some context for that.

I think what he means, and this is just from reading into the quote, is that nobody likes abortion. Nobody goes out and says "Yay! I'm going to go get an abortion!".That's not to say we shouldn't allow it to happen, or that it should be illegal, but that we should remember that the people getting an abortion are probably not that happy about it, to put it lightly.

Omnutia

I thought that too but there are those who would take it way out of context. If you could use time phones as a method of contraception, no-one would be using abortion.

Erwin

I do not accept abortion because I believe in the preservation of human life,

What qualifies as human life? Every month a girl isn't pregnant, a human egg cell dies. Is that ending a human life? What about a culture of human cells in a petri dish? In vitro fertilization by default kills off several "potential" humans. What aboutHeLacells? They came from a human. Where do you draw the line?

I assume that since you are quoting me you are asking me what qualifies as human life. I can only answer for myself, from what I have learned through my life and experiences. So here it is: I would consider any embryonic cell with 23 (or more, due to mutation or weakness of their spindles) pairs of chromosomes that rose directly from the union of a male gamete and a female gamete. You see, I look at their potential and not at what they are. This universe of ours have infinite possibilities for us and I ask myself who am I to decide who lives and who dies? I am no one, I do not have that right to stop someone else life.

Omnutia

I think your problem is you have assigned a point on an analog scale arbitrarily. The fertilized egg stage is no different from the sperm and unfertilized egg stage from a scientific perspective. Neither stage shows any sign of being more or less of a human. What is the distinction you make or is it an arbitrary point?

Apreche

A rock is just protons, neutrons, and electrons in a particular configuration.
A sperm is just protons, neutrons, and electrons arranged in a particular configuration.
A zygote is just protons, neutrons, and electrons arranged in a particular configuration.
A cat is just protons, neutrons, and electrons arranged in a particular configuration.
A living adult human is just protons, neutrons, and electrons arranged in a particular configuration.
A dead adult human is just protons, neutrons, and electrons arranged in a particular configuration.

When a hurricane blows down houses, it is just matter and energy acting according to the laws of the universe, resulting in reconfiguration of other matter.
When a person kills a person, it is just matter and energy acting according to the laws of the universe, resulting in reconfiguration of other matter.

Why is it ok to freely reconfigure matter that is in one configuration, but not touch it at all in another?
Why is it ok for matter to be reconfigured by other matter and energy, but not ok if the matter or energy appears to be controlled by a sentient being?