Tangent: I found this in the image properties, important life advice. Someone needs to back up Geocities just in case Yahoo goes tits up and the history is lost forever.
The question you have to ask yourself at a time like this is: "What is the likelihood of this cult causing me, her or our relationship serious harm?" and compare it to the amount of effort you are willing to expend.
For instance, a double blind is a good way to start: [not sure if this is a good example] ask her for the list of ingredients required for a ritual and switch out one of them for something that is physically indistinguishable. Wait until the ritual has been completed and she has, herself, be assured that it has gone right, then present her with the evidence that it couldn't possibly have gone right according to her methodology and that she's just making it up.
This is, of course, the best way to prove you are an arsehole. The definition of friend should probably include something like "Friend's don't play mind games with each other." Boyfriend even more so.
If someone believes something because of emotion and not evidence, no amount of evidence will change their mind. The way to make them see the value of science or rational thinking is to show how those two things affect your emotions in a good way. At the start she might roll her eyes at you the same way you now want to roll your eyes at her, but she'll at least value your world view more if it actually impacts your relationship in a positive fashion.
For instance, a double blind is a good way to start: [not sure if this is a good example] ask her for the list of ingredients required for a ritual and switch out one of them for something that is physically indistinguishable. Wait until the ritual has been completed and she has, herself, be assured that it has gone right, then present her with the evidence that it couldn't possibly have gone right according to her methodology and that she's just making it up.
This is, of course, the best way to prove you are an arsehole. The definition of friend should probably include something like "Friend's don't play mind games with each other." Boyfriend even more so.
If someone believes something because of emotion and not evidence, no amount of evidence will change their mind. The way to make them see the value of science or rational thinking is to show how those two things affect your emotions in a good way. At the start she might roll her eyes at you the same way you now want to roll your eyes at her, but she'll at least value your world view more if it actually impacts your relationship in a positive fashion.
Very true. DO NOT continue in a relationship under the assumption that you will be able to change an irrational belief. Ask yourself: if she continues to believe this and never changes, am I OK with that? If she does wind up coming around, bonus! Just don't count on it.
Like I said, not a great example. Don't be all "A Ha! That didn't work. Told you so!" and more "Hey lets try it out!" and then "Oh, I suppose that didn't work.". I'm just providing the basic method. Also get some research done on what Wiccas have done to people they didn't like. Cults have been known to overreact (witch burning anyone?).
Ok so my girlfriend who I previously believed to be relatively well grounded just told me she's aWiccan. She says she doesn't believe in all of what the Wikipedia page says, but has performed ''rituals'' which involve ''the ritual knife'', ''the candle'' (which has to be the right colour) and a ''book of shadows''.
She accepts that ''Wiccans believe in magic that can be manipulated through the form of witchcraft or sorcery. Wiccans cast spells through the form of ritual practices'' and that she once cast a spell and it worked. When pressed she said ''well basically a friend had trouble with family so i just thought i could try and it worked''
She's very reluctant to discuss what she believes or what it involves at all. When I mentioned the James Randi Challenge she simply replied ''Wicca is great but if you don't believe in it you won't see it. It's that simple''
So what should I do? Should I just leave her to it even though I find it quite disturbing and ridiculous? Should I try and change her mind? Any suggestions how? In the long run will I be able to stay with someone who has such fundamentally different views?
How about letting her believe in what she wants to believe in. Not everything has to make sense in the world, no matter what some stuck-up people tell you.
How about letting her believe in what she wants to believe in.
Wicca was made up in the 50s. We even know who made it up. Unlike most major world religions, wiccans can't attempt to hide the secular origin of their belief system: it wasn't that long ago.
Not everything has to make sense in the world,
If you start that tired argument again, this thread is locked.
Regardless of your feelings toward other beliefs, wiccan theology is clearly and unambiguously not real. There's really no room for argument.
If you start that tired argument again, this thread is locked.
Anyone got a link to a previous discussion on this? I know that Rym is right, but i'm having trouble expressing why to myself. More honestly the girlfriend in question always throws this kind of argument at me, and i'd like some solid ammunition.
She may be irrational, but is it harming you? The most important thing, though, is "is she nice?" Everyone has their faults. The best thing to do, I think, would be to be to hold your ground but don't try to force your way of thinking on her. Teach by example, not by coercion. In my experience, Wicca is one of those things a lot of teenagers play around with, but it doesn't really stick. I had a friend in high school who had a Wiccan phase. ( She stopped about a year later when she went into a punk music phase.) I remember participating in casting spells and stuff at her house. I never really believed it, but it was fun. In my opinion, Wicca is an irrational but pretty laid back belief system. It's not cult-y, its more just these vague hippie "earth goddess, moon, crystals" type of deals. Not really harmful. It's like, if someone wants to believe in unicorns, big deal. If they stop going to the doctor because they think that the unicorns will save them, now that's when you have to intervene. As long as she isn't pushy about it, keep it kinda hands off, act logically, and maybe the relationship will work itself out.
It's like, if someone wants to believe in unicorns, big deal. If they stop going to the doctor because they think that the unicorns will save them, now that's when you have to intervene.
Yeah that's the way I'm playing it for now. I get the impression though that Scrym disagree with this (see my last post) and I would like to know their reason(s) why / whether I've missunderstood them
Not everything has to make sense in the world, no matter what some stuck-up people tell you.
Ah, no actually. Everything does have to "make sense" in the universe. It might not make sense to you, but that's your problem.
What I might say may be contradictory, but whatever. All I'm saying is that whenever a new concept is either shown or told to me I'm willing to listen and learn more about it. But if it has even the slightest amount of bullshit in it, I completely ignore it.
One more thing though, based on your argument that everything has to make sense, i bet the term verisimilitude is (in your eyes at least) bullshit and you never get that feeling at all, which leads me to my next question. How in holy Hell can you play Burning Wheel or read anything that has the slightest amount of fantasy in it when you are of the mind that everything has to make sense?!
How in holy Hell can you play Burning Wheel or read anything that has the slightest amount of fantasy in it when you are of the mind that everything has to make sense?!
Well, I'm glad you asked! R. Scott Bakker, author of the Prince of Nothing books, actually wrote an essay answering this very question! I'm sorry it's a pdf, but it's worth your time to read it. The Skeptical Fantasist: In Defense of an Oxymoron
How in holy Hell can you play Burning Wheel or read anything that has the slightest amount of fantasy in it when you are of the mind that everything has to make sense?!
I remember my dad talking about His Dark Materials, that he thought it was weird that a stated atheist would write books about magic, souls, and gods. I responded that I was pretty sure dragons don't exist, but I love to imagine them. Sometimes I think the greatest Skeptics are the ones who love the idea of magic the most. I am secretly convinced that James Randi would love for there to be real magic, and that's part of why he is so committed to exposing all the frauds.
Not everything has to make sense in the world, no matter what some stuck-up people tell you.
Ah, no actually. Everything does have to "make sense" in the universe. It might not make sense to you, but that's your problem.
What I might say may be contradictory, but whatever. All I'm saying is that whenever a new concept is either shown or told to me I'm willing to listen and learn more about it. But if it has even the slightest amount of bullshit in it, I completely ignore it.
One more thing though, based on your argument that everythinghasto make sense, i bet the term verisimilitude is (in your eyes at least) bullshit and you never get that feeling at all, which leads me to my next question. How in holy Hell can you play Burning Wheel or read anything that has the slightest amount of fantasy in it when you are of the mind that everything has to make sense?!
Fantasy and RPG's are escapist entertainment. If you admit that Wicca is escapist entertainment and nothing more, that's perfectly acceptable. If you actually believe that you can cast spells, then you're as bad as the LARPers who think they're vampires. See the difference?
All I'm saying is that whenever a new concept is either shown or told to me I'm willing to listen and learn more about it.
We're all that way. Science is that way. The problem is that most of the "new concepts" people bring to the table are well-known and already disproven. Wicca isn't new. There's no new claim being made here. That claim was tested and found wanting long ago. If you have a new claim, science will listen. If you have new evidence, science will listen. You've brought nothing new to the table.
How in holy Hell can you play Burning Wheel or read anything that has the slightest amount of fantasy in it when you are of the mind that everything has to make sense?!
It actually frightens me how many people try to make this argument. It really does, for a multitude of reasons. That somehow having a rational outlook is tantamount to having no imagination is ludicrous. That so many people conflate fantasy and reality is horrifying. The answer is simple:
When I play Burning Wheel, I'm playing make-believe.
Why on Earth would my make-believe play affect my real-world beliefs or vice-versa? Why would you even consider that they would?
I can imagine: it's one of the things that makes me who I am. How is that in any way tied to whether or not I believe in the made-up claims of a wandering "mystic" from the 50s and is vague pseudo-religion?
How in holy Hell can you play Burning Wheel or read anything that has the slightest amount of fantasy in it when you are of the mind that everything has to make sense?!
Well, I'm glad you asked! R. Scott Bakker, author of the Prince of Nothing books, actually wrote an essay answering this very question!
I've heard a good deal about these Prince of Nothing books, but I don't know what genre it is. If it is cyberpunk, than I am out because I hate cyberpunk with a burning passion. I just think it's really boring and it really doesn't catch my interest at all. The only exception to that is Akira (the movie, I have yet to read the manga) as I thought that was fantastic.
I am secretly convinced that James Randi would love for there to be real magic, and that's part of why he is so committed to exposing all the frauds.
I have met James Randi. In fact, I met him in the audience of a puppet show. The puppet show was a live showing of a story based on the podcast "Aliens You Will Meet." (Dragon*con 2008)
Not once during the whole thing did he say anything negative about the fantastical nature of the show. Didn't mention anything about it while we were talking after the show, either. The only negative sentiment expressed the whole time was his pronouncement of the mini DV tape I was trying to repair as pretty well fucked. I'm pretty sure he was clapping and cheering at the end along with the rest of us. Smiling, even! I think it's pretty safe to say he enjoys speculative fiction.
I've heard a good deal about these Prince of Nothing books, but I don't know what genre it is. If it is cyberpunk, than I am out because I hate cyberpunk with a burning passion. I just think it's really boring and it really doesn't catch my interest at all. The only exception to that is Akira (the movie, I have yet to read the manga) as I thought that was fantastic.
Listen, ah. you should probably just stop talking now. Every sentence you type is making your respect meter lose hundreds of points. First you say "not everything has to make sense". Then you say you don't know what genre the book is, which could easily be looked up on Google. Then you express your prejudice against an entire genre, something which was argued against in the other thread when Mrs. Macross expressed her distaste for 'mecha. Do yourself a favor, and do some more thinking before you type.
I've heard a good deal about these Prince of Nothing books, but I don't know what genre it is. If it is cyberpunk, than I am out because I hate cyberpunk with a burning passion. I just think it's really boring and it really doesn't catch my interest at all. The only exception to that is Akira (the movie, I have yet to read the manga) as I thought that was fantastic.
Listen, ah. you should probably just stop talking now. Every sentence you type is making your respect meter lose hundreds of points. First you say "not everything has to make sense". Then you say you don't know what genre the book is, which could easily be looked up on Google. Then you express your prejudice against an entire genre, something which was argued against in the other thread when Mrs. Macross expressed her distaste for 'mecha. Do yourself a favor, and do some more thinking before you type.
All right, you try going on the forums after reading 80 pages of 1984 nonstop due to the fact that it's homework (I am one of those people who think grades matter). I'm really mentally exhausted as of this moment, and I think I need to take a nap so I can both get some rest and make it easier to think.
All right, you try going on the forums after reading 80 pages of1984nonstop due to the fact that it's homework (I am one of those people who think grades matter). I'm really mentally exhausted as of this moment, and I think I need to take a nap so I can both get some rest and make it easier to think.
You sound like a whiny baby.
1984 is good stuff. Hopefully you'll get the most out of that book. Remember, "Big Brother is Watching You." ^_~
Well, I'm glad you asked! R. Scott Bakker, author of the Prince of Nothing books, actually wrote an essay answering this very question! I'm sorry it's a pdf, but it's worth your time to read it. The Skeptical Fantasist: In Defense of an Oxymoron
Thanks for the link. It helped take up the time I have left at work.
Posted By: Rym What's your 'proof'? I mean it's obviously ridiculous but I think a clear argument as to why it's 'unambiguously' not real could help me convince the girl. I get the feeling she's not entirely beyond logic, so i'd appreciate you or others expanding your point.
What's your 'proof'? I mean it's obviously ridiculous but I think a clear argument as to why it's 'unambiguously' not real could help me convince the girl. I get the feeling she's not entirely beyond logic, so i'd appreciate you or others expanding your point.Well, one, we can trace it's obviously secular origins. It's a very recent religion. Two, the burden of proof is always on the extraordinary claim. So, if she believes that magic actually exists, she needs to provide the evidence - extraordinary evidence at that - or else it's rejected by default. If she does try to provide solid evidence, it should be easily refutable with logic.
Now, the larger point beyond that is why she believes. If she has a rational basis for belief - "It makes me feel good to believe that magic exists" - that's something of a different story. It's all in assessing the extent, and whether or not it has a serious detrimental effect in her life. Personally, I'm willing to live with a certain level of illogical belief, as long as there's some sort of rational basis for said illogical belief. If you want to believe in fairies because the thought brings a spot of joy to your otherwise dreary life, I personally wouldn't really argue with that. If you forsake medical treatment because you think the fairies will cure you, that's a different story.
If you forsake medical treatment because you think the fairies will cure you, that's a different story. Yeah, then that means whomever believes that needs to see a shrink or something, because that's
If you forsake medical treatment because you think the fairies will cure you, that's a different story.
Yeah, then that means whomever believes needs to see a shrink or something, because that's totally illogical.
Yes, thank you. If this girl casts spells and actually expects them to do something, you might have some trouble. But even then, if she's not counting on them to work, it could be a different story.
And that's really just my perspective on things. Sure, it's irrational, but if you're willing to deal with it, that's up to you. Only you can really decide how much of an impact something like this may have in your relationship.
What's your 'proof'? I mean it's obviously ridiculous but I think a clear argument as to why it's 'unambiguously' not real could help me convince the girl. I get the feeling she's not entirely beyond logic, so i'd appreciate you or others expanding your point. Yeah, I'd like to see this too. I've always heard that they're following some ancient belief or some such. I've never really cared before because it all seems so very silly. However, if there is a demonstrably recent, secular originm it would be very cool to know the real story.
Comments
The question you have to ask yourself at a time like this is: "What is the likelihood of this cult causing me, her or our relationship serious harm?" and compare it to the amount of effort you are willing to expend.
If someone believes something because of emotion and not evidence, no amount of evidence will change their mind. The way to make them see the value of science or rational thinking is to show how those two things affect your emotions in a good way. At the start she might roll her eyes at you the same way you now want to roll your eyes at her, but she'll at least value your world view more if it actually impacts your relationship in a positive fashion.
Also get some research done on what Wiccas have done to people they didn't like. Cults have been known to overreact (witch burning anyone?).
Regardless of your feelings toward other beliefs, wiccan theology is clearly and unambiguously not real. There's really no room for argument.
One more thing though, based on your argument that everything has to make sense, i bet the term verisimilitude is (in your eyes at least) bullshit and you never get that feeling at all, which leads me to my next question. How in holy Hell can you play Burning Wheel or read anything that has the slightest amount of fantasy in it when you are of the mind that everything has to make sense?!
Edit: Ooh, Thanks Scott!
EDIT: Yeah, read the R. Scott Bakker essay.
When I play Burning Wheel, I'm playing make-believe.
Why on Earth would my make-believe play affect my real-world beliefs or vice-versa? Why would you even consider that they would?
I can imagine: it's one of the things that makes me who I am. How is that in any way tied to whether or not I believe in the made-up claims of a wandering "mystic" from the 50s and is vague pseudo-religion?
Not once during the whole thing did he say anything negative about the fantastical nature of the show. Didn't mention anything about it while we were talking after the show, either. The only negative sentiment expressed the whole time was his pronouncement of the mini DV tape I was trying to repair as pretty well fucked. I'm pretty sure he was clapping and cheering at the end along with the rest of us. Smiling, even! I think it's pretty safe to say he enjoys speculative fiction.
1984 is good stuff. Hopefully you'll get the most out of that book. Remember, "Big Brother is Watching You." ^_~ Thanks for the link. It helped take up the time I have left at work.
Now, the larger point beyond that is why she believes. If she has a rational basis for belief - "It makes me feel good to believe that magic exists" - that's something of a different story. It's all in assessing the extent, and whether or not it has a serious detrimental effect in her life. Personally, I'm willing to live with a certain level of illogical belief, as long as there's some sort of rational basis for said illogical belief. If you want to believe in fairies because the thought brings a spot of joy to your otherwise dreary life, I personally wouldn't really argue with that. If you forsake medical treatment because you think the fairies will cure you, that's a different story.
And that's really just my perspective on things. Sure, it's irrational, but if you're willing to deal with it, that's up to you. Only you can really decide how much of an impact something like this may have in your relationship.
Yeah, I'd like to see this too. I've always heard that they're following some ancient belief or some such. I've never really cared before because it all seems so very silly. However, if there is a demonstrably recent, secular originm it would be very cool to know the real story.