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GeekNights 080917 - Neon Genesis Evangelion

AprecheApreche
edited September 2008 in GeekNights
Tonight on GeekNights we go where no anime podcaster dare go. We bring you our final thoughts on Neon Genesis Evangelion. In the news, Michiko to Hatchin is an anime that is coming out, and Tatsunoko vs. Capcom is getting crazy go nuts.

Scott's Thing - Metroid Hat
Rym's Thing - Anime News Nina lays the smack down.
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Comments

  • MagicMagic
    Finally, after several months of anticipation. I'm excited!
  • VentureJVentureJ
    Hell yeah, I'm excited for both this episode AND Michiko to Hatchin.
  • LordwouboboLordwoubobo
    edited September 2008
    EDIT 18/09/08 YHBT I wish to point out that I was half a sleep, and thought I was sighed in as my troll account . The thoughts below is not mine, it was my troll.

    Neon Genesis Evangelion is nothing but a monster of the week with a few new good ideas . The end was shit, When they were making ivce (for the horny geeks). What I'm tring to say is Neon Genesis Evangelion is not that special. If you want a anime that deserves this kinda credit check out legend of the galactic heroes.

    A good review of Lotgh
    Post edited by Lordwoubobo on
  • SailSail
    edited September 2008
    You say that as if "monster of the week" is inherently bad.
    Post edited by Sail on
  • Victor FrostVictor Frost
    Whow. NGE? Holy crap. It's downloading right now.
  • RyienKuRyienKu
    As an overall picture, I think you both are on top of it. I'm with you on NGE being a work of art that is up there on the scale of best television shows ever. Episodes 25 and 26 are phenomenal and to this day I still sit in awe when I watch them.

    How do you both watch the show? Subbed or dubbed? I get the feeling it was sub for both of you, though I can't be 100% sure.


    Commentary: I think you may give the Juedeo-Christian stuff a bit too much attention (Rym seemed to allude this at various times, though elected not to get too much into it), considering it was meant as window dressing. It was a stylistic choice meant to entice viewers, little else. All of the religious references have little to nothing to do with the overall theme and meaning of the work at least.

    SEELE inside the Eva Series? No, I don't think so. As I understand it, those were empty except for dummy plugs, which a close up of during EoE showed they were made from Kaworu like NERVE's dummy plugs were made from Rei. As for why they were shown as monoliths, I imagine it had a lot to do with wanting to save money. But, I think you can rationalize it plot-wise by deducing that its purpose was so that even SEELE's own members don't know who each other are and are merely united to achieve their goal of furthering humanity's evolution through the Human Instrumentality Project. I did like your theme-minded explanation however.

    Oh, by the way. Rym, come on. Do you really need to say the title in Japanese? Neon Genesis Evangelion is the GAINAX approved title in English. It's okay to use it. :P

    I enjoyed the show tonight, guys! I think I'll now have an itch to watch the entire series again instead of just bits and pieces like I regularly will every now and again. Perhaps I'll try to get a friend into it that hasn't seen it yet.
  • MitchyDMitchyD
    It's about time. I can't wait to hear this, because I tried really hard to like it upon your initial recommendation and ended up the David Riley camp.
  • RymRym
    Neon Genesis Evangelion is nothing but a monster of the week with a few new good ideas . The end was shit, When they were making ivce (for the horny geeks).
    Wow. So, immediately and without having listened to the episode, you decide to post an un-backed-up and inflammatory opinion in exactly the manner we both expected and specifically called out in the show. You've done exactly what we expected, and you are the reason we did this episode. Thanks for playing.
    What I'm tring to say is Neon Genesis Evangelion is not that special. If you want a anime that deserves this kinda credit check out legend of the galactic heroes.
    Legend of the Galactic Heroes, while a good show, isn't put together with nearly as much artistry, skill, or subtlety as Eva. The fact that you even compare the two in this manner makes me highly suspect of your opinion. Furthermore, along with your previous statement, you clearly have no idea how to separate what a show says from how it says it, to discern message from technique.
  • RymRym
    I think you may give the Juedeo-Christian stuff a bit too much attention (Rym seemed to allude this at various times, though elected not to get too much into it), considering it was meant as window dressing. It was a stylistic choice meant to entice viewers, little else. All of the religious references have little to nothing to do with the overall theme and meaning of the work at least.
    But at the same time, they pull in literary baggage and allegory. They add style and flavor for the informed viewer, and simply style for the uninformed viewer. The mythology is used to reinforce themes in a pretty cool way.
    SEELE inside the Eva Series? No, I don't think so.
    Well, dummy plug copies of them or controlled by them. Remember: we were doing our best to pretend the movies never existed. Their physical bodies are either in some bunker somewhere, in those transport planes, or dead. What's left, and what's in those EVA, is effectively them: it is the last extension of their will.
  • OmnutiaOmnutia
    edited September 2008
    Eva isn't that great a show but I don't get why everyone makes such a fuss. It's not as amazing as Scrym says but it's still damn good. Remember, your opinion is your own, as is mine.
    I'd just like to add, when I finished it, I liked what it did with the philosophy but I didn't feel much like raving about.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • RymRym
    edited September 2008
    It's not as amazing as Scrym says but it's still damn good
    From a technical/film perspective, what is a better show?

    I felt the way you did until I watched the show again. It stands the test of time and even the test of multiple viewings better than the vast majority of anime ever made.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • OmnutiaOmnutia
    edited September 2008
    I would put Mushishi immediately above it but I could also fit some shows between the two if you give me a while to rack my brain. It does have age going for it but I'll leave it a year or so before I watch it again.

    I think leaving it and watching it again is probably a good idea. I really think a marathon with some newbies would be a good idea too.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • RymRym
    edited September 2008
    I would put Mushishi immediately above it
    While Mushishi has excellent animation and sets up a very nice mood and environment, it suffers from being wholly episodic and having no overarching story of any kind. There was no inter-episode development, no real character development, and no opportunity to set up any complex cinematic devices. It's a good show, but it was never complex enough to allow for the level of depth that Eva was able to pull off. I also highly doubt that it will stand up to multiple viewings, as the majority of the tension and interest stems from the mystery-of-the-week which, once the answer is known, makes the show in retrospect seem incredibly slow-moving.

    Mushishi was fantastic, but I couldn't put it on the same technical level as Eva.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • Conan-SanConan-San
    I'm sorry, I can't agree that any show that has a felt tip fueled two episode thesis on the human condition (or whatever the hell) can be called a the greatest anything, be it an anime or whatever.

    I honestly have to wonder how much of the things R and S called off as great was deliberate on the part of Anno/Gainax (Like I'm sure the whole "Where the hell has everyone buggered off to?" thing was) and what was just the fortunate after effect of whatever; be it budget, TV Tokyo coming down on them like a pile of bricks after the violent scenes in the midway point or Anno slowly but surely going snooker loopy, like I'm almost sure the last two episodes were.
    I can only think with amusement about the amount of (and this is not to insult the episode of GeekNights or anything) self masturbation that goes on over Eva even to this day and at times it annoys me so.

    There's a ton of great anime out there that deserves so much more attention than Eva ever did and is often batted into submission for standing in the shadow of the show but instead of everything going to hell in a handbasket, the issue is resolved and because it was resolved it's not as good as Eva.

    Whatever, it's your show anyway, I'm just a member of the peanut gallery.
  • misakyramisakyra
    It's been a couple years since I watched Eva, and now I'm going to have to watch it again, probably starting today after work. I didn't get every single nuance the first time I saw it, but I did enjoy it and never understood why people had a problem with the way it ended. To me, there really didn't seem like any other way to go.
  • Loganator456Loganator456
    edited September 2008
    Anybody else see the Metroid Hat link in Scott's TOTD and think there would actually be a metriod hat the you could wear? Lol, I was really looking forward to a metriod hat that I can wear, although I bet there's come I can just order online somewhere.
    Post edited by Loganator456 on
  • RymRym
    edited September 2008
    There's a ton of great anime out there that deserves so much more attention than Eva ever did
    Such as?
    I honestly have to wonder how much of the things R and S called off as great was deliberate on the part of Anno/Gainax
    The same can be said for any work of art. Was the Mona Lisa smile intentionally ambiguous, the product of painstaking study and practice, or did it just end up that way by chance? Was the smoke in Citizen Kane intended to convey what it did, or was it just there because someone thought it looked cool, or it fit the style of the time? Was Hamlet Oedipal, or was the bedroom scene intended to be comedic? Your argument has no particular application to Eva over other works.
    I can only think with amusement about the amount of... self masturbation that goes on over Eva even to this day and at times it annoys me so.
    You could say the same thing about Hamlet. In fact, since anime fandom is such a tiny thing, you could say it a thousand times moreover about Hamlet. Does it annoy you that people endlessly dissect Hamlet? Isn't there something to a work that draws continual attention, analysis, and discussion?

    You've yet to say anything convincing or back anything up. Was the cinematography in Eva not well executed? Was the soundtrack not well fitted? Was the symbolism not well placed?
    Post edited by Rym on
  • OmnutiaOmnutia
    Mushishi was fantastic, but I couldn't put it on the same technical level as Eva.
    Well then, we want different thing in our lives at different times. Too confused by the worries of modern life, I prefer something that is simple and reliable. There will come a time when that is boring and Eva one-ups it on the ladder but that may be a few years. Still, both are still damn good compared to the average.
  • Li_AkahiLi_Akahi
    I don't understand why I find a blood-sucking alien blob to be so goddamn cute!
  • ......
    I don't understand why I find a blood-sucking alien blob to be so goddamn cute!
    It goes "SQUEEE!" and it does not appear to be creepy when doing so.
  • chaosof99chaosof99
    Just to put it out here, my first encounter with EVA:
    I had borrowed a japanese-with-german subtitled boxset of EVA from my friend, however, the day I came home and want to watch it immediately, I felt the precursors of getting sick. I watched it anyway and fell more and more sick during the viewing. Not a puketastic sickness, but just one where you feel like shit and your brain feels like a plate of spaghetti that gets pounded by a sledgehammer. At one point I just wanted to get into my bed, yet wanted to continue watching. I didn't have a laptop back then, so I carried my PC upstairs into my bedroom.

    Yet, I knew I was watching something fantastic, albeit confusing, and the confusion was amplified by the sickness. I still watched the entire series within 20 hours including sleeping in between. At the end I had problems distinguishing between reality and dream.
  • OmnutiaOmnutia
    At the end I had problems distinguishing between reality and dream.
    Why did noone tell me not to watch Lain in one sitting.
  • CalcaneusCalcaneus
    Bah, I'm in the middle of Eva so I can't really listen/comment on the episode, but I can comment on Tatsunoko vs Capcom. The game looks totally bad ass, and I'm so ready for this fighting game renaissance that's brewing. I've already seen videos of this game and Street fighter 4, but I've seen this video of King of Fighters XII and it looks freaking amazing.
  • ......
    Anybody else see the Metroid Hat link in Scott's TOTD and think there would actually be a metriod hat the you could wear? Lol, I was really looking forward to a metriod hat that I can wear, although I bet there's come I can just order online somewhere.
    Listen to the show again? Really, Scott tells it, use the menu on the left, there's everything under a big and huge animated button.
  • GreatTeacherMacRossGreatTeacherMacRoss
    Neon Genesis Evangelion is nothing but a monster of the week with a few new good ideas . The end was shit, When they were making ivce (for the horny geeks). What I'm tring to say is Neon Genesis Evangelion is not that special. If you want a anime that deserves this kinda credit check out legend of the galactic heroes.

    A good review of Lotgh
    That show was painfully, needlessly complicated and boring to boot. My friend once got a group of us to watch the first four episodes, and it was unilaterally panned. Her argument that we had to watch 30-something episodes before the show "got good" was the nail in the coffin.
  • J.SharpJ.Sharp
    edited November 2008
    Evangelion was the first anime to really grab my imagination. Its one of the reasons I chose a career in bioengineering a decade ago. Over the years my enthusiasm has mellowed considerably, but I still greatly respect the show.

    I appreciate the artistic choices made by Eva's producers toward the end of the series, but I do think budget shortfalls had a strong effect the ending we got. There are side plots, scenes, and still frames that hint at a larger story going on outside of Shinji's head (Mistato shot, the mass-production eva units, the details of Gendo's agenda) that seem to indicate a story that the creators wanted to tell, but ran out of time/money to do well, in addition to Shinji's important personal psychological drama. I think the End of Eva movie incorporates a lot of what was originally intended to be the final climax of the television show, but a lot of that gets lost in the explosions/noise and Ammo's big middle finger at the fans. I'd really like to hear a follow-up show about what Scrym's opinions are on the End of Evagelion movie.

    I'm with RyienKu in that I never got the impression that the members of Seele were physically in the mass-produced Eva eva units. I thought it was pretty clear that the point of the Dummy Plug Project was to develop a means of effectively controlling the mass-produced units. But, I also agree with Rym in that it doesn't really matter, as those units are pure extensions of Seele's will and are effectively them.
    Post edited by J.Sharp on
  • RymRym
    @J.Sharp

    Air (movie episode 25) was comprised largely of the script from what was initially intended to be episode 25 in the show.

    Budget constraints have greatly enhanced other shows in the past: Eva is no exception in this regard. Escaflowne's pacing and lack of filler was due to the cutting of 13 entire episodes. Utena's unique style was almost entirely due to budget constraints.
  • Hitman HartHitman Hart
    Rym and Scott, congratulations. I was, and still may end being an Eva hater, but you got me to give it another shot. I do disagree with a few minor things you said in the episode, like it's very clear not EVERYONE is fighting the Angels. Maybe it's just been too long since I saw the show, but I don't see how you pulled some of the things you did out of just the show, it feels like you two, Rym especially, were pulling in things that we wouldn't know going into the show cold. I could be wrong, though, and if I am, I'll say so here.
    I would argue, as a side point, that some of the best episodes of Star Trek communicate their message in a far, far better way than Eva does, because I apparently missed quite a lot when I watched it. I don't have a list of episodes in front of me right now, but if you'd care to take a look at them I'll post Netflix links.
  • sibnovasibnova
    Rym I am very sorry to say, but I agree with RyienKu. It just doesn't add up, there are a minimum of 15 members of SEELE and only 8 mass produced units, but this may not be a problem due to more than one person being allowed in an entry plug at once, not to mention that SEELE was only interested in the mass produced units after they realised what Gendou was doing with Shinji and Eva Unit 01. There are only 6 know members of SEELE at the beginning, where did the others magically come out of is the real question?
  • RymRym
    I would argue, as a side point, that some of the best episodes of Star Trek communicate their message in a far, far better way than Eva does
    I'd like to see some examples, because the cinematography and soundtracks in Star Trek have always been incredibly generic. I all the years I've watched it, I don't think I ever once thought anything like "Wow, that was an amazingly put-together scene." The acting is average for the most part, and never once was Star Trek (in any non-movie iteration) ever able to elicit a strong emotion in me. Suffice to say, I'm dubious. ^_~
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