Why are americans afraid of socialism?

chaosof99

A theme that I encounter more and more often is the fear of americans of socialism? We've had in this forum very long debates about social healthcare and the the recent failure of the bailout plan can also be somewhat attributed to this fear of the government owning businesses.

I can understand why the rich don't want socialism, but not the common people. Do they honestly expect to get rich from the middle class up through the magic of capitalism or do they simply not care that their neighbor can't pay for his medicine or the son or daughter of his or her friend can't go to college because the family can't afford it?

gomidog

I'm all for socialism in certain sectors, and I argue against privatization if I feel that it is not serving the interest of the people. I think the fear of socialism stems from cold war era paranoia, and also since lobbyists have so much control over government policy, American laws will tend to favor big business and rich people. I suppose that is an oversimplification, but that is part of the problem, I feel.

The other problem is there is this somewhat misguided perception that if you are poor, it is your own fault. This may be true in some instances, but poverty is a cycle; one born in poverty will have a much more difficult time escaping it. The American people are reluctant to pay their "hard earned money" to support the people they perceive as lazy or stupid. They hate taxes. HATE THEM! Socialism means high taxes. Thus, Americans hate socialism.

HungryJoe

I can understand why the rich don't want socialism, but not the common people. Do they honestly expect to get rich from the middle class up through the magic of capitalism or do they simply not care that their neighbor can't pay for his medicine or the son or daughter of his or her friend can't go to college because the family can't afford it?

Many people actually do believe something of the sort even though the odds against them eventually rising to the wealthy class are about the same as the Millenium Falcon successfully negotiating the asteroid field.

Another thing is that Americans seem to believe that rich people somehow deserve to be rich. I think that's a remnant of the Puritan attitude that hard work will be rewarded. Americans don't seem to take into account that many, many rich people were simply born well. Take McCain for example. His daddy was a rich Admiral and his daddy's daddy was a rich Admiral. He might have had to do some work to get to where he is now, but he had an ENORMOUS head start.

chaosof99

Like marrying into one of the wealthiest families in Arizona?

I find this all so paradox, especially with many americans thinking that america is a christian nation and the Bible and Jesus in it speaking out against poverty rather often.

Blattus

Why am I afraid of socialism? Because I don't want the money I make through my effort and my work to go to someone who's too lazy to get a job.

That's why.

chaosof99

Why am I afraid of socialism? Because I don't want the money I make through my effort and my work to go to someone who's too lazy to get a job.

That's why.

1. How much of the tax money you would pay do you think would go to the benefit of people "too lazy to get a job"?
2. How do you know they are too lazy? How about the disabled or the simply unlucky?
3. Would you be more comfortable with the idea if the money you make on welfare is just enough to stay alive, but not enough for any kind of luxury?
4. How do you feel about helping out a single mother which works two jobs to feed her two children?

Sir_Xander

I personally don't fear socialism or any form of it. I hate it. For me socialism is saying that I have to give my earnings to support people who refuse to raise themselves out of poverty. If someone want something bad enough they will do what ever it takes to lift themselves up. Communism obviously doesn't work so why should we adopt any form of it.

gomidog

find this all so paradox, especially with many americans thinking that america is a christian nation and the Bible and Jesus in it speaking out against poverty rather often.

Paradoxical, isn't it? But actually, some speculate that this belief has its roots in the Puritan Work Ethic.

Why am I afraid of socialism? Because I don't want the money I make through my effort and my work to go to someone who's too lazy to get a job.

Sarcasm? Or did you just back up my point in an incredibly ironic way?

HungryJoe

Why am I afraid of socialism? Because I don't want the money I make through my effort and my work to go to someone who's too lazy to get a job.

That's why.

That's exactly the attitude Emily talked about. It's just abvious that someone who doesn't have as good a job or is not earning at the same rate is simply lazy, isn't it?

kiwi_bird

Having a social system makes you feel much more safe though. I also feel that a human shouldn't be sacred of loosing everything he's got and landing on the street.

Sir_Xander

That's exactly the attitude Emily talked about. It's just obvious that someone who doesn't have as good a job or is not earning at the same rate is simply lazy, isn't it?

No, it's trivial to move up in some businesses. My friend worked a movie theatre for a year before getting a promotion and a raise and we're still in high school. Minimum wage is rather high in California,at 8.00 an hour, but from what I heard the federal is to match eventually.

chaosof99

I personally don't fear socialism or any form of it. I hate it. For me socialism is saying that I have to give my earnings to support people who refuse to raise themselves out of poverty. If someone want something bad enough theywilldo what ever it takes to lift themselves up. Communism obviously doesn't work so why should we adopt any form of it.

Right, refuse to raise themselves. Not unable to but they simply refuse to get something better than poverty...

Cremlian

That's exactly the attitude Emily talked about. It's just obvious that someone who doesn't have as good a job or is not earning at the same rate is simply lazy, isn't it?

No, it's trivial to move up in some businesses. My friend worked a movie theatre for a year before getting a promotion and a raise and we're still in high school. Minimum wage is rather high in California,at 8.00 an hour, but from what I heard the federal is to match eventually.

Just a note, The idea of a Minimum wage is socialistic.

Also, a real life job is a bit different then movie theater jobs....

Sir_Xander

to clarify my position: I believe that opportunity should be equal but not outcome. Equal outcome is communism.
I have no doubt that movie theatre jobs are by far different form the real world but my point is obvious.

chaosof99

@ Xenoc, Blattus: Are you by any chance christians?

MrRoboto

Whoever thinks that people can overcome poverty with attitude and hard work, is delusional.

HungryJoe

Equal outcome is communism.

Is it? Could you post some authority for that?

I have no doubt that movie theatre jobs are by far different form the real world but my point is obvious.

Is it? Somehow I don't think so. Please elaborate.

...

chaosof99, did you forget that the majority of Americans are anti-social idiots rusted in their old habits?

Why am I afraid of socialism? Because I don't want the money I make through my effort and my work to go to someone who's too lazy to get a job.

I personally don't fear socialism or any form of it. I hate it. For me socialism is saying that I have to give my earnings to support people who refuse to raise themselves out of poverty. If someone want something bad enough theywilldo what ever it takes to lift themselves up. Communism obviously doesn't work so why should we adopt any form of it.

Sigh, fucking heartless idiots who have no empathy for a fellow human being. My guess, both of you loudly proclaimed "LET'S BOMB THOSE DAMNED TERRORISTS!". No shit socialism is hated in America with people like you. Use your brains. A proper government will set up a system to prevent people of free-loading. Not everyone has an IQ over 100, not everyone is capable of doing hard manual low paying labour for 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week, not everyone has nigh zero expenses, children, divorces, no education. Socialism allows more people to study that would otherwise be stranded with doing low paying jobs that won't get them anywhere out of poverty. You need education to be able and do a job that requires more knowledge than how to wield a spatula precisely so that the flipping of a hamburger is correct. My mother is capable of renting a small flat for herself, my little brother and me, capable of putting food on the table and capable of sending my little brother to high school from her low-paying job at the shoe store and her 2 or 3 cleaning jobs next to it. And she even finds space in her funds to give me support for my university costs all because of socialism, all because she is given money to rent this place and child support for my little brother. FUCK YOU.

AND WE ARE ALL INSURED.

Jason

The welfare system in the United States does not work. There is something fundamentally flawed about the way we address issues of poverty and opportunity; money is not the answer. This is a problem of priorities and administration of social benefits programs. Look at the way our Veterans Administration works. Look at Medicare and Medicaid.

The way our government handles money is sub-prime. That's why we're terrified of giving it more money. Our government is like the teenager who asks for lunch money and buys crack instead, then sues his parents for damages.

kiwi_bird

I bow to you "myself". :] Though you might have been a bit drastic I totally agree with you.

To quote myself, as in I, from a different discussion:

A German author once said that the best way to keep the people down is to keep them in constant fear (loosing their job, getting sick, terrorism) and keeping the majority dumb. IMHO America has made this into an Art.

gomidog

Obviously they, and other Americans like them, don't think of "Decent Education" and "Basic Medical Care" when they hear socialism. They think "Oh, I am giving all my money to some lazy crack ho on welfare." This is because they are foolish. It makes me frustrated.

gomidog

The way our government handles money is sub-prime. That's why we're terrified of giving it more money. Our government is like the teenager who asks for lunch money and buys crack instead, then sues his parents for damages.

Unfortunately, I also agree with this. If our government was better, I would like to give it more taxes. But what do they spend my money on? The Iraq war and bailing out the financial firms that they let run wild. They do for big business what they should be doing for citizens. I heard a quote the other day.

The only respectable kind of socialism in America is socialism for the rich

The bailout is a form of socialism, in a way. If our banks mess up, the government helps them, so our economy does not end up in the toilet. People not so much.

MrRoboto

Even free education and "basic medical care", doesn't help the problem. We have both down here and there is still extreme poverty, the problem usually is a fair wage for a days work and the fact that its not fair at all.

HungryJoe

Americans are afraid of government involvement in business. That's why we had about twenty years of deregulation. I mean, private business is obviously so much better with money than the government, right? Isn't that why all the capitalists are asking the government for money now?

Maybe Americans aren't afraid of socialism as long as the beneficiaries of the socialism are rich old white capitalists.

Edit: I wrote this on my phone and didn't see your quote before I posted, gomidog. That's a good quote.

Jason

To be fair, Joe, the bail-out at $700 billion is a little less than the national debt at $9 trillion. It's seen a 50 percent increase under Bush.... Private businesses have to stay in the red or fail. Government doesn't do that, at least not in the U.S.

The only difference is that the government can take your money by force, while Bear Stearns couldn't.

Jason

gomidog

So...uh, the House just rejected the bailout. I wonder what will happen now?

Blattus

A proper government will set up a system to prevent people of free-loading. Not everyone has an IQ over 100, not everyone is capable of doing hard manual low paying labour for 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week, not everyone has nigh zero expenses, children, divorces, no education.

Calm down a bit there. My opposition to socialism is that it's inherently self-sacrificing, regardless of the wonderful flowery benefits you get. It's not that I don't care about other people, but that I don't want government making that decision for me, and socialism is a form of government. You want to help people out? By all means go ahead and donate all you want; if I want to help people that's what I do. Plus, even if government's solution would be to eliminate feeloading or whatever the claim is, the fact remains that it's still big, overbearing government that's telling me how to spend my money. That's something I don't want to accept.

AND WE ARE ALL INSURED.

There are plenty of examples that prove that socialist insurance clogs the system and causes more inadequacies in terms of things like medical care, which is what I'm assuming you're referencing. Jason pretty much said it in regards to this.

Sigh, fucking heartless idiots who have no empathy for a fellow human being. My guess, both of you loudly proclaimed "LET'S BOMB THOSE DAMNED TERRORISTS!". No shit socialism is hated in America with people like you.

I don't see what bombing terrorists has to do with the advocacy of limited government and the protection of private property.

@ Xenoc, Blattus: Are you by any chance christians?

I was born Hindu, but barely consider myself religious today

kiwi_bird

You want to help people out? By all means go ahead and donate all you want; if I want to help people that's what I do.

That wouldn't work.

chaosof99

What I don't get is that americans apparently rather line the pockets of the rich than give the money to the government help out other people. Medical insurance and college tuition. What europeans pay as tax you pay as well but to people who will actively try to screw you over because they are usually run-for-profit organizations.

YoshoKatana

Xenoc, here's a quick question. You said that you (and your friend) are both in high school. Now, I assume you were making somewhere around $8.00/hour, correct? Well, do you live with your parents? Do you realize that $8.00/hour is not a living wage in most of California? Do you pay for rent? Utilities? Internet and Phone service? Groceries? Kitchenware, furniture, cleaning products? Clothing? $8.00/hour is not a living wage in most of California, and definitely not enough to support children or the elderly on.

I moved out to Rochester because the cost of living is a fraction of what it is in California. After a month of searching, I finally got a job that pays $10/hour. In Rochester, I have a lot of money. I'm going to buy a car in a few months, so I can get around more easily. I would not be able to support myself on $10/hour in California.

Minimum Wage laws, and socialist ideas in general, are required for a society to function. As we've progressed socially, we've become more and more progressive, from workers' rights legislation to welfare programs. This is society becoming more civil. We are constantly moving towards systems that benefit more and more people, and allow us to live with each other (police, roads, etc). Economic equality is part of this. While work should be rewarded, everyone should have the right to a living wage. No one who thinks otherwise can claim that they care for their fellow man. (or woman, ^_~ )

EDIT:

What I don't get is that americans apparently rather line the pockets of the rich than give the money to the government help out other people. Medical insurance and college tuition. What europeans pay as tax you pay as well but to people who will actively try to screw you over because they are usually run-for-profit organizations.

Exactly. Medical Insurance and Education are two major, MAJOR problems in this country.

EDIT2:

My opposition to socialism is that it's inherently self-sacrificing, regardless of the wonderful flowery benefits you get. It's not that I don't care about other people, but that I don't wantgovernmentmaking that decision for me,

What about roads? Public schools? Libraries? All of these are set up by the government, because that is what government is supposed to do. Government is about people coming together and pooling resources for the betterment of all involved. The only problem with such a move (becoming more socialist), is that of corruption and bloat, which are not inherent in a socialist system (they are inherent in government itself, but that's why we need greater safeguards).