GeekNights 081125 - Left 4 Dead

Apreche

Tonight on GeekNights we review Left 4 Dead. In the news, some guy is stupid about politics and video games, and the creater of the MUD dislikes torture in WoW. Also, remember that the next Thursday episode will be a book club episode about A Wizard of Earthsea. And Scott wants more geeky cornucopias like this one.

Scott's Thing - Papercraft Turkey
Rym's Thing - Left 4 Office
Rym's Thing - Left 4 Leeroy

Walker

That's not a remake of Office, that's a half-assed port. Someone probably just opened cs_office.bsp in an entity editor and added the bare minimum L4D entities. I really wish I could run Left 4 Dead myself; I bet mapping for the game would be a blast.

Also, I'll tell you why there's no vehicle mission: The Source engine's networking code shits itself when vehicles get involved. A few mods have come up with hackish work-arounds, but the controls and physics are always really wonky.

Rym

That's not a remake of Office, that's a half-assed port.

Both my totds are half-assed attempts at what are otherwise good ideas. That's why I have two. ^_~

I bet mapping for the game would be a blast.

I wish my mapping/modding interest hadn't peaked in the Doom2 days. I still have my copy of WADed. I didn't jump on the halflife mapmaking boat early enough, and now I don't have the time or energy to delve in.

Also, I'll tell you why there's no vehicle mission: The Source engine's networking code shits itself when vehicles get involved.

Sigh... They would have been better off making worse vehicles that function than having great single-player vehicles and no multiplayer ones...

Rym

I realized what's going on!

Scott Johnson isn't bad at the game... He's a zombie sympathizer! That explains everything!

Cremlian

I realized what's going on!

Scott Johnson isn't bad at the game... He's a zombie sympathizer! That explains everything!

I think it's more that I would rather see Scott Rubin eaten by zombies then to hear him bitch at other people for his own mistakes :-p

Apreche

bitch at other people for his own mistakes :-p

What mistakes?

Rym

I think it's more that I would rather see Scott Rubin eaten by zombies then to hear him bitch at other people for his own mistakes

While normally I would agree, Scott is about as good as you can be at Left 4 Dead. I think we play a near-perfect game.

Cremlian

What mistakes?

Well, First you shot the car right after saying not to shoot the car, while this is a petty problem, I figure it's ok to hold that against you since you seem to have judged my skill on the fact that before I knew what a witch looked like really, I started one (I would also note I haven't startled a witch by accident since).

The biggest problem was however, like I explained in the lef4dead thread, you have no situation awareness. You constantly pushed forward without any notice to whether your teammates were having trouble behind you or were slow because they were wounded. Thus leading to our team being murdered by smokers or hunters that picked off the lead half or back half of the party. While it might suck to have slow players (I was not the one lagging behind I might add) in left4dead you have to plan around them and stick together. At least in that game you were not doing that and we were losing big time. On top of that bitching constantly about other people's mistakes instead of supporting the team. I would add I played the same level (on the same difficulties the next day and flew through it with no problems.

An example of good awareness was that I noticed that Alex was lagging behind because his health was low so I took up a position behind him to guard against a attack from behind which could have proved fatal. Granted the game we played together was the most unorganized game of left4dead I've played in terms of teamwork. Since then I've played extensively with Pete with no problems, so I can only assume it was Scott's fault :-p

Cremlian

While normally I would agree, Scott is about as good as you can be at Left 4 Dead. I think we play a near-perfect game.

Maybe now, but not on the one game Alex, Pete and I played with him.

Apreche

The biggest problem was however, like I explained in the lef4dead thread, you have no situation awareness. You constantly pushed forward without any notice to whether your teammates were having trouble behind you or were slow because they were wounded. Thus leading to our team being murdered by smokers or hunters that picked off the lead half or back half of the party. While it might suck to have slow players (I was not the one lagging behind I might add) in left4dead you have to plan around them and stick together. At least in that game you were not doing that and we were losing big time. On top of that bitching constantly about other people's mistakes instead of supporting the team. I would add I played the same level (on the same difficulties the next day and flew through it with no problems.

So in other words, I was doing great, but we lost because I had three balls and chains.

Cremlian

So in other words, I was doing great, but we lost because I had three balls and chains.

If the game is about team work, if you do not support and work with your team, your not playing the game right.

scotbuff

The Detroit Lions have a chance to lose every game, matching the feat accomplished by the Tampa Bay Bucs in their first season. When Tampa Bay lost every game there were only 14 regular season games. The Lions have a chance to be the best worst team ever.

Rym

If the game is about team work, if you do not support and work with your team, your not playing the game right.

I think the root issue is that very skilled players can't enjoy playing with a slower team. While normally I would agree with you in regard to Scott's teamwork, I note that when we play with four highly skilled people, the entire team moves as fast as Scott tries to in lower-skill games.

The problem is that where Scott tries to play the peak efficiency game with a poor team, I will adapt my strategy to my unskilled teammates (or simply leave the game).

Left 4 Dead does NOT work when a team has players of different skill levels. It's not fun for anyone involved at that point.

Cremlian

I think the root issue is that very skilled players can't enjoy playing with a slower team. While normally I would agree with you in regard to Scott's teamwork, I note that when we play with four highly skilled people, the entire team moves as fast as Scott tries to in lower-skill games.

I am also trying to say I wasn't the person who was slow, but unlike Scott I don't place blame on people just starting to play the game and learn it.

lackofcheese

I am also trying to say I wasn't the person who was slow, but unlike Scott I don't place blame on people just starting to play the game and learn it.

Blame needs to be placed. However, blaming others does not necessitate intolerance and an inability to accommodate them.

Rym

I don't place blame on people just starting to play the game and learn it.

Hence, I elegantly solve the problem by only playing with experts. I feel obligated to brag here by pointing out that I rocked "advanced" mode the first time I ever played with no practice or pre-game research whatsoever. ~_~

Compared to NS, L4D is ridiculously easy.

MrRoboto

Dunno. Playing only with experts is boring: you eliminate the whole spur of the moment thing. You want people making mistakes: it makes for a more interesting game. It's not fun if you get to the end at full health with med-packs to spare: you want to go limping to the end.

Rym

Youwant people making mistakes

No, I want the game challenging me. Knowing that I was rocking the house until my teammate went witch-waking stupidly after setting me on fire and then running out of ammo isn't fun. It's like being an expert hockey player stuck on a terrible team: they only serve to hold you back, and they limit your potential.

Cremlian

after setting me on fire

God I hate when that freaking happens.... People have to learn how to use cocktails...

Anyhow, off to Ohio for a few days... I'll be up for some play when I get back late Saturday or Sunday.

Rym

Luckily, at least on Advanced, explosives aren't really necessary to win, so you can mostly avoid problems with them.

Cremlian

Luckily, at least on Advanced, explosives aren't really necessary to win, so you can mostly avoid problems with them.

You can if people don't pick up those damn cocktails...

...

I think it's more that I would rather see Scott Rubin eaten by zombies then to hear him bitch at other people for his own mistakes

While normally I would agree, Scott is about as good as you can be at Left 4 Dead. I think we play a near-perfect game.

He kept jumping out of the windows every darned time. That's nowhere near near-perfect. Perhaps now, yes, he is better, but he was not when I

So in other words, I was doing great, but we lost because I had three balls and chains.

No, you were the ball and chain by not paying attention to your teammates while your teammates checked your back when you ran past them. I at one point did the same, with the Demo. I realized this was screwing us over after 2 tries on the level and then I no longer ran about. That was on expert.

If the game is about team work, if you do not support and work with your team, your not playing the game right.

I think the root issue is that very skilled players can't enjoy playing with a slower team. While normally I would agree with you in regard to Scott's teamwork, I note that when we play with four highly skilled people, the entire team moves as fast as Scott tries to in lower-skill games.

The problem is that where Scott tries to play the peak efficiency game with a poor team, I will adapt my strategy to my unskilled teammates (or simply leave the game).

Left 4 Dead does NOT work when a team has players of different skill levels. It's not fun for anyone involved at that point.

Playing at peak efficiency does not necessarily mean playing the map as fast as possible. Playing at peak efficiency is playing so that, when someone gets attacked by a Special infected, or normal ones for that matter, he or she takes as little damage as possible. If one person runs ahead while a smoker or boomer attacks from behind, that person screws the team because he just ran forward without making sure his team is able to also move on.

I personally am of the opinion that Left 4 Dead works just as well with players of different skill levels. The better players just have to adapt and protect the less-skilled players. Or just kick him and call in an equally skilled friend.

MrRoboto

You want people making mistakes

No, I want the game challenging me. Knowing that I was rocking the house until my teammate went witch-waking stupidly after setting me on fire and then running out of ammo isn't fun. It's like being an expert hockey player stuck on a terrible team: they only serve to hold you back, and they limit your potential.

That is really bad, I thought you meant "Shot the car by accident" or "Reflex shot the boomer too close" kinda thing. Still, for people that like to gloat about self achievement, I would have thought you'd prefer to play with sub-par players to then proceed and make clear that you, were the ones responsible for the victory at the end.

Luke Burrage

You want people making mistakes

No, I want the game challenging me. Knowing that I was rocking the house until my teammate went witch-waking stupidly after setting me on fire and then running out of ammo isn't fun. It's like being an expert hockey player stuck on a terrible team: they only serve to hold you back, and they limit your potential.

I'm a hundred percent with Rym on this one. Twice a week I go to juggling clubs here in Berlin and we play combat, which is simply the last person juggling wins. There are good people and there are not so good people, and the groups very rarely mix. It's just annoying. The problem is that out of the thousands of people in the world who play this game/sport, probably three or four of the top ten players in the world live in Berlin, so the newer players have a long, long way to go before they are good enough to join in with the more advanced players.

Churba

creater of the MUD

Huh, I thought the first MUD was AberMUD - My mistake, though, it was only the first popular MUD codebase.

...

Listening to the show, just at the Scott Johnson antics stuff. AWESOME! Cremlian, I'd love to play more with you. And that ultimatum is evil. Unless ScoJo may assemble his team first, and after that the Scrym couple can pick 2 people.

MrRoboto

In fact to make it more challenging, Scott J. should pick both teams. So if Scrym wins, they truly are undoubtedly superior at the game.

...

In fact to make it more challenging, Scott J. should pick both teams. So if Scrym wins, they truly are undoubtedly superior at the game.

Or the two on Scryms' team should kill each other constantly.

Apreche

In fact to make it more challenging, Scott J. should pick both teams. So if Scrym wins, they truly are undoubtedly superior at the game.

Even then, he would have to pick himself for our team, twice.

Walker

I bet mapping for the game would be a blast.

I wish my mapping/modding interest hadn't peaked in the Doom2 days. I still have my copy of WADed. I didn't jump on the halflife mapmaking boat early enough, and now I don't have the time or energy to delve in.

One of my most formative gaming experiences was when my dad bought Half Life 1 in the '99 for his birthday and taught me how to use the level editor. I've been mapping ever since, though I'm still not very good at it despite that.

TheWhaleShark

Something's been bugging me about L4D lately. It's fun and all (only in multiplayer), but I honestly have to say that this game was in no way worth 45 bucks. It's small and simple, and it really sort of wears thin after a while. It's fun, but I'd really expect something a bit meatier for my money.

Of course, I play MMO's, so I suppose my opinion is rendered invalid.