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GeekNights 090105 - Netbooks

edited January 2009 in GeekNights
Tonight on GeekNights we discuss the netbook phenomenon. In the news, Amazon is going to allow reverse-charging on S3, Twitter phishing, and distributed nuclear power plants.

Scott's Thing - The Assumption Song
Rym's Thing - Electric Idiots
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Comments

  • ......
    edited January 2009
    I point out that I'm a person who celebrated the millennium on the proper year.
    If you go by the historical year counting, you are probably right. I would've expected a person like you, Rym, a person who would use base-12 instead of base-10 where appropriate, to use the Astronomical year counting, which would mean you did not celebrate the new millennium on the proper year-change.

    @Scott, concerning the Google homepage and bandwidth: If they truly are concerned about bandwidth usage they would've done a far better job at that. Go look around, there have been several people who independently discovered that the Google search main page is not optimized for least bandwidth usage.
    Post edited by ... on
  • I'm guilty of the Christmas light thing. For Christmas 2007, I ran all 7 strands of icicle lights along the (then more complex than now) roof. Took me about 2 hours. It was only after I was done that I realized I was a moron.

    So I built myself a very-carefully constructed double-male adapter, and blocked off the other end so that it couldn't kill anyone. Mind you, if you were on the third floor of my house, and near my lights, it's likely that I'd want you dead (or injured) anyway.

    My adapter has since been destroyed.
  • I'm guilty of the Christmas light thing. For Christmas 2007, I ran all 7 strands of icicle lights along the (then more complex than now) roof. Took me about 2 hours. It was only after I was done that I realized I was a moron.

    So I built myself a very-carefully constructed double-male adapter, and blocked off the other end so that it couldn't kill anyone. Mind you, if you were on the third floor of my house, and near my lights, it's likely that I'd want you dead (or injured) anyway.

    My adapter has since been destroyed.
    Why didn't you just re-do it properly?
  • Why didn't you just re-do it properly?
    Because I didn't yet own a 70' ladder and didn't want to pay another 65.00 dollars to rent one. So I'm a cheap moron.
  • edited January 2009
    It's nice to have teh Geeknights back. I agree completely with the Netbook analysis. I also agree with Rym's comments on the nuke article in Slashdot. Based on Russia's experience with similar things, it does not seem like a good idea. Moreover, it seems that it is really a small scale reactor that creates heat to turn water into steam instead of a radioisotope thermoelectric generator. Very dangerous indeed.
    Post edited by Thaed on
  • Very dangerous indeed.
    Yes. I'd be more worried about steam explosions and poor maintenance than I would be the nuclear material within.

    I would, however, advocate something like this for rural townships and small communities. Imagine the savings in maintenance and loss if outlier electric lines were replaced with local, independent grids.
  • Having come close to pulling the trigger on a netbook... my main concern is software that will run well on them. I understand that most people don't need the computing power of an expensive laptop. Nonetheless, I want to see a critical mass of applications that are devoted to maintaining "slimmed down" versions that will run well on a Netbook. Specifically, I'd like to see Firefox commit to this.

    Not upgrading to a new version of a program is always an option. However, I'd rather have a new version that is designed to work on a low end machine. This way, I won't be missing out on new security features and any other important changes in the newer versions.
  • Firefox will run just fine on a netbook.

    What you're asking for is a future-proof netbook, which is really silly when you think about it. The point of a netbook is that it's a piece of shit. That's why it's so cheap. The reason they are viable is because the rate of systems requirement increases has been decreasing for quite awhile. When application requirements start to move forward again, today's netbooks won't be able to run the newest stuff. Applications developers aren't going to stop moving forward just because it will obsolete slow crappy machines. They never have before, and they never will. Just because slow machines are suddenly cool, isn't going to change anything.

    A netbook these days is about as powerful as a desktop from four or five years ago. When you buy one, you accept everything that goes along with that. You can't buy a cheap used car and then expect it to last you 10 years. It's just not going to happen. What you can expect is for it to get you from point A to point B for the time being. That's what you get with a netbook. It gets you from A to B. You get what you pay for.
  • A netbook these days is about as powerful as a desktop from four or five years ago.
    Does anyone else ever suddenly realize that and get that weird feeling? Like remembering the time when 1GB flash drives were about £60.
  • Applications developers aren't going to stop moving forward just because it will obsolete slow crappy machines. They never have before, and they never will. Just because slow machines are suddenly cool, isn't going to change anything.
    You just illustrated my fear. The problem with netbooks is that they fall into a black hole.

    Take the IPhone, for example. It doesn't have the processing power of a decent computer. Nonetheless, developers are going to make sure that there are applications that run well in the IPhone for the foreseeable future. Since mobile devices will always play a role in the tech sector, there will always be streamlined apps that are made for them.

    The problem with a netbook is that it's like buying an old, crappy Palm device in a world full of IPhones. If technology improves at all, you're either stuck using old software or getting a new machine.

    If netbooks were $200, I would totally understand. But they aren't. A netbook that is not a complete joke is in the $350-$450 range. At that price point, I just don't get it. I'd be tempted to have an IPhone and a decent laptop. Although I have to confess that I haven't had much hands-on time with an IPhone.

    It will be interesting to see what netbooks do to the ultra-portable market. The markets are definitely different, but I wonder if people will be pissed off spending $2,000 for a small machine when there are a plethora of small machines that are cheap. I understand the difference between the machines, but that's not to say that consumers won't have some resentment paying such a high premium for an ultra-portable.
  • The point of a netbook is that it is not your only computer. Sure, sometimes you need horsepower to run the latest and greatest applications. But you only need it at home. So what if your netbook runs an old Firefox? So what if it's a little slow? It's just a piece of shit you carry around, and it gets the little jobs done. It's like an old pair of sneakers you put on when you're going to run in the mud. Not as good as your new pair, but who cares if they get dirty?

    Even if a netbook is your only computer, for most people that's not a big deal. Sure, it can only browse the web, watch youtube, send instant messages, play solitaire, and do other little things. That's all that the vast majority of people do! Even if new applications and things come along, these people aren't going to get into them for years and years. Remember, there are people out there still running Windows 98 with IE5, and they just don't know or care. They can do their e-mails facebooks, and youtubes. The netbook gets it done at the lowest price, and has added benefits of portability.
  • edited January 2009
    I think that's all great if money is the issue. And that's why I struggle so much with netbooks. A netbook would do 98% of what I would like a computer to do. So it really is a waste of money to get a $2,000 ultra-portable when $400 would work fine.

    However, after trying one of the better netbooks, I decided that the experience was annoying. The trackpad was way too small, and the screen resolution was too small. Some models have keyboards that are also absurdly small. To me, an improved user experience is worth something in and of itself.

    Since portability is not something I value highly, I'm going to split the baby down the middle and get a good laptop that is somewhat less portable than an ultra-portable.

    But I definitely see how different machines suit different people. For that reason, it's good to see netbooks filling a void that existed in the market. If I had to carry my computer around a lot, I'd gladly go with a netbook. Even I couldn't justify $1,600 more for computing power that I would rarely, if ever, need. I would just have to value the portability more than the inconveniences resulting from the small size of the netbook.

    I still predict that netbooks will inadvertently lead to a decline in the price of ultra-portables. (At least ultra-portables that aren't high end in the spec department.) But that's probably just wishful thinking on my end.
    Post edited by Kilarney on

  • I still predict that netbooks will inadvertently lead to a decline in the price of ultra-portables. (At least ultra-portables that aren't high end in the spec department.) But that's probably just wishful thinking on my end.
    If it's not high-end in the spec department, then it's not an ultra-portable.

    Remember, a netbook can be made small because it is slow and old. An ultra-portable can be made small because it's wicked expensive, and has the latest and greatest miniaturization technology. No computer with middle of the road specs will be made so small. It's too powerful to be made small without drastically increasing the price. That drastically increased price is too much to warrant the middle of the road specs.

    For the time being all tiny laptops are going to be either wicked fast or wicked slow. If you want a middle of the road ultra-portable you'll have to get a used/old one.
  • Funny, I almost bit on a netbook this morning, then visited this website to find out there is an episode about it.

    $199 netbook! Free shipping.
    http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220475
    Use coupon code EMCABAGAJ
  • In some other episode, Rym (I think) predicted that, with netbooks, computers would soon become comparable to appliances, and would just be throwaway things you got for opening bank accounts/raffles (á la toasters). I thought this was fascinating, and I'm kind of surprised it wasn't mentioned in the episode.

    Oh, and I'm alright with netbooks making a "black hole" and slowing down improvements. For all 19 years that I've been alive and computing, there has always been some level of lag that drives me nuts, whether I was listening to music and checking my e-mail 8 years ago, or watching a movie and checking my facebook this week. The day that (almost) every application would start, work, and close as soon as the intended button is pressed (and not a second later) is the day I say computer improvements are finished.* Not the day that some lab has enough power to simulate the universe.

    I think that almost all lag will be eliminated from simple functions within the next ten years, but it's only come close because we've learned to improve the efficiency, not the features, of applications. If having iphones and netbooks will bring us closer to that, then I'm all for it.

    *On a side note, I think everyone who says "there's no other way we can improve so-and-so" lives to eat those words. Weren't people saying there was no chance graphics could improve anymore after every generation?
  • What do you mean zero lag? Much of what you experience as "lag" is completely psychological. If I put you on a 100Mhz machine, you'll say it's slow. Then I'll put you on a 1Ghz machine, and it will feel instant. Until I put you on a core 2 duo 3Ghz. And so on.

    Here's an experiment you can do at home. Get two buckets. Put room temperature water in one bucket. Completely lukewarm. Let the water sit out for awhile just to make sure. Get another bucket, and fill it with ice water, so it's freaking cold. Put one hand in the ice water for a little bit. Let it get cold, but don't frostbite yourself. Then put your cold hand in the warm water. See what it feels like.

    When you want to talk about instant, we have to talk about measuring time. We don't know if time is discrete, so what counts as instant? Will 1 millisecond response time be good enough for you? Maybe half a millisecond? Oh, but that will start to feel slow when people have picosecond response times. You see where this is going.
  • Here's an experiment you can do at home. Get two buckets. Put room temperature water in one bucket. Completely lukewarm. Let the water sit out for awhile just to make sure. Get another bucket, and fill it with ice water, so it's freaking cold. Put one hand in the ice water for a little bit. Let it get cold, but don't frostbite yourself. Then put your cold hand in the warm water. See what it feels like.
    You could have just said perception is subjective. It wasn't all that good an analogy either.

    I think when we get to the Denno Coil computer glasses, we will still be looking for the next big thing.

    Personally, I think, maybe, life shouldn't be so instant. Waiting isn't that hard.
  • Half the fun is in the waiting. Not! Quick question, I'm thinking of buying a Netbook for a few reasons. One being, I'm thinking it would be great to watch my anime fansubs during my lunch-break. I'm just not certain if a Netbook's would be able to handle the current generation of video encodes. I'm guess it shouldn't have an issues.
  • edited January 2009
    Half the fun is in the waiting. Not! Quick question, I'm thinking of buying a Netbook for a few reasons. One being, I'm thinking it would be great to watch my anime fansubs during my lunch-break. I'm just not certain if a Netbook's would be able to handle the current generation of video encodes. I'm guess it shouldn't have an issues.
    It should work just fine. The iPhone can play modern fansubs, albeit transcoded ones, so why not a netbook? I was able to play fansubs with only a tiny bit of chopiness back in the day on my Pentium 3 450mhz, so why not a 1Ghz atom?
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • edited January 2009
    If I turn off Compiz, my 1.6GHz laptop has no trouble with 720HD and it's several years old.

    I could see this having an effect on games but most people buying this will probably have a PC or just play flash games.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • ......
    edited January 2009
    When you want to talk about instant, we have to talk about measuring time. We don't know if time is discrete, so what counts as instant? Will 1 millisecond response time be good enough for you? Maybe half a millisecond? Oh, but that will start to feel slow when people have picosecond response times. You see where this is going.
    I read somewhere, though no source, that humans consider something to be instant when it happens in 50ms or less. Most video runs at minimum at 24fps, or 41.6ms, that is smooth to the eye, even though the eye is analog.
    Half the fun is in the waiting. Not! Quick question, I'm thinking of buying a Netbook for a few reasons. One being, I'm thinking it would be great to watch my anime fansubs during my lunch-break. I'm just not certain if a Netbook's would be able to handle the current generation of video encodes. I'm guess it shouldn't have an issues.
    1Ghz is too little for 720p H.264 encodes. I think it's (just) enough to play standard def H.264 though.
    Post edited by ... on
  • I usually just stick with the Xvid codec, smaller file usually, which means faster download. Most fansubbers provide a Xvid along with the H.264. So cool that's good to know. :)
  • I usually just stick with the Xvid codec, smaller file usually, which means faster download
    Haha, no. Same quality H.264 video is of lot smaller. Practically, possibly. But that's because the avi is a low-quality standard def Xvid encode. It's also only a faster download if the swarm is big enough to seed at the same rate as the bigger file torrent(s).
    Most fansubbers provide a Xvid along with the H.264.
    Something they should stop doing. Every computer these days should be able to playback standard def H.264 video without trouble. The quality and filesize benefits of H.264 are huge, Xvid shouldn't be used anymore.
  • edited January 2009
    H.264 will give you the same quality at a smaller file size though. The only reason Xvid encodes tend to be smaller is because they're done at much lower quality.

    EDIT: =D too slow.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • H.264 will give you the same quality at a smaller file size though. The only reason Xvid encodes tend to be smaller is because they're done at much lower quality.

    EDIT: =D too slow.
    Yay. Someone else who knows. Seriously, I've seen good quality H.264 SD anime subs that were just under a 100 MB. Double digit filesize! Good luck trying to get watchable quality with a 100MB Xvid encode.
  • Ahh I see. Usually when I compare the file sizes the h.264 fansubs are a lot of the times 100MB more or even twice the size as the Xvid fansub. I'm not refuting what you all are saying it's just what I've seen when I download the fansubs. I wasn't to concern with the video quality so long as it was decent to watch.
  • No computer with middle of the road specs will be made so small.
    Guess again!
  • Ooooo very nice.
  • Damn you Kilarney, now I have an even more expensive laptop in my wanted que.
  • No computer with middle of the road specs will be made so small.
    Guess again!
    AMD laptop? Forget it.
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