Then I guess it's not that. Maybe it's just big cities in general.
In Atlanta, GA people still acknowledge each other. It is a big city. I think it has more to do with the fact that Southern parents focus on social niceties.
Then I guess it's not that. Maybe it's just big cities in general.
In Atlanta, GA people still acknowledge each other. It is a big city. I think it has more to do with the fact that Southern parents focus on social niceties.
Most of the stereotypes about rude Northerners come specifically from New York City people. We're not rude in New York; we're just honest.
Then I guess it's not that. Maybe it's just big cities in general.
In Atlanta, GA people still acknowledge each other. It is a big city. I think it has more to do with the fact that Southern parents focus on social niceties.
Most of the stereotypes about rude Northerners come specifically from New York City people. We're not rude in New York; we're just honest.
I'm talking about upstate NY, not NYC. In a few rural communities, you get people that smile back when you pass, but even then it is rare. Also, the "I'm not rude, I am honest" line is bullshit. A person can be honest and kind at the same time or honest and rude at the same time.
Then I guess it's not that. Maybe it's just big cities in general.
In Atlanta, GA people still acknowledge each other. It is a big city. I think it has more to do with the fact that Southern parents focus on social niceties.
Most of the stereotypes about rude Northerners come specifically from New York City people. We're not rude in New York; we're just honest.
I'm talking about upstate NY, not NYC. In a few rural communities, you get people that smile back when you pass, but even then it is rare. Also, the "I'm not rude, I am honest" line is bullshit. A person can be honest and kind at the same time or honest and rude at the same time.
Even people in upstate have places to be and things to do.
If I have somewhere to be, and you're in my way, I'm either going to move around you, or tell you to get out of my way. I may do so politely - "Excuse me" - but that's the extent of my needed social niceties. If I'm headed somewhere, I see no particular reason to acknowledge someone else unless they address me directly. Some people might consider that rude, but I find that viewpoint to be more self-centered than anything else. You're telling me I should do something different just to acknowledge your existence?
Now, if someone asks me a question or something, I'll often stop to answer it. I may answer quickly, but I'll still answer.
Now, if someone asks me a question or something, I'll often stop to answer it. I may answer quickly, but I'll still answer.
You'll see something interesting in New York City. If you ask a stranger for help or directions (not money), you'll often very quickly be surrounded by people offering to assist you. New Yorkers love to answer questions about their city, beat up muggers, and otherwise assist their fellow Gothamites and visitors to their fine city.
They will not, however, bother acknowledging anyone who does not directly concern or address them. And frankly, I like it that way.
I just had the best day since I left college, everything went perfect.
Hooray! I like when I feel happy like that!
You'll see something interesting in New York City. If you ask a stranger for help or directions (not money), you'll often very quickly be surrounded by people offering to assist you. New Yorkers love to answer questions about their city, beat up muggers, and otherwise assist their fellow Gothamites and visitors to their fine city.
They will not, however, bother acknowledging anyone who does not directly concern or address them. And frankly, I like it that way.
So true! It's like "I'm aware of the people around me, but I can't interact with every single one! That would be just silly!" Also, eye contact can actually be viewed as aggressive. In conversation you should look at people when they talk to you (at least in American society), but to randomly stare some stranger in the eyes freaks a lot of people out. It feels like "What? What did I do? What do you want from me?" If you made eye contact and waved with everyone in NY, they would assume you were trying to form some sort of social contact with them when you have no reason to, or that they had done something that bothered you.
Pete, I am not talking about someone being in your way, I am talking about passing someone on the street. You look them in the eye and smile or say hello as you pass. You don't stop and have a chat. Also, I know you... you aren't THAT busy. ^_~ @ Emily: Briefly making eye contact as you pass someone is not STARING at someone. Just eye contact and a smile can be nice. It isn't aggresive if you smile.
But it sends the message of "I am trying to make contact with you for some reason." And the other person is like "Why?" If a person says hello to you, I think they have to have a reason for doing so. I make eye contact and say hi only with people I want to form some sort of social interaction with, even if that interaction is just buying a burrito from them or asking them for the time. Otherwise, it confuses and disturbs people. It's like "Why is this person trying to interact with me?"
(I think this is just something that population dense places have. I say hi to my neighbors all the time, and to people I see in the office building often. I say hi to the doorman, who recognizes me. People you recognize or see frequently, it is not weird to smile at them. However, perfect strangers on the subway will become unnerved.)
But it sends the message of "I am trying to make contact with you for some reason." And the other person is like "Why?" If a person says hello to you, I think they have to have a reason for doing so. I make eye contact and say hi only with people I want to form some sort of social interaction with, even if that interaction is just buying a burrito from them or asking them for the time. Otherwise, it confuses and disturbs people. It's like "Why is this person trying to interact with me?"
It doesn't confuse and distrub people in the South... I am noting a cultural difference. Also, if people are that easily disturbed and confused, then there is a problem.
Don't you see what I am saying? There isn't a problem. It is how people keep their sanity. It is impractical to interact with everyone, all the time. You ignore people as though they were part of the surrounding environment (you don't say hi to trees, do you?) UNLESS they approach you or you have a reason to approach them. In a small town, you are more likely to see people repeatedly, and they are fewer and far between. Sending the message of "Hey, interact with me!" bothers New Yorkers because they don't understand the reason for it. It is a cultural communication difference, and I can see how it evolved. It has nothing to do with bad manners. In fact, in New York proper behavior is precisely what Rym and I described. Is is simply the conservation of social energy.
I am not saying it is a problem, it is just strange and comes off unfriendly to those who have lived in the South (including major cities in the South) when you go anywhere in the North (not just NYC or cities in general - but also in suburban and even rural areas) where you pass someone on the street or in a hallway and you smile at them and they just pretend to ignore you, even-though they obviously see you. It is a bit rude. It takes just as much energy to look away from someone as would be to smile back. How does this in any way drain you "social energy"? I am not advocating that people stop their conversations or even interrupt their train of thought, I just know that in a lot of Southern cities people will make eye contact and smile at people in their eye line. It makes a very friendly, positive, and less stressful environment. It also creates a feeling of community and pops people out of themselves for a second to see that there are other people in the world, not just moving wallpaper. For people from the South, the behavior seems rude. It may not be intended and it may be acceptable in the North, but for people from the South (even Southern cities - yes, I know it is hard for NYCers to believe that there are other cities, particularly any in the South, but trust me - they exist) it is major culture shock.
It doesn't confuse and distrub people in the South... I am noting a cultural difference.
I'm forced to agree here - It's certainly a perfectly acceptable and even normal behavior in Australia, and It's certainly not something that would be considered weird or unacceptable in England, as far as I've found.
Pete, I am not talking about someone being in your way, I am talking about passing someone on the street. You look them in the eye and smile or say hello as you pass. You don't stop and have a chat. Also, I know you... you aren't THAT busy. ^_~ @ Emily: Briefly making eye contact as you pass someone is not STARING at someone. Just eye contact and a smile can be nice. It isn't aggresive if you smile.
I am the epitome of Newton's First Law. If I'm walking anywhere, it's because I have somewhere to be; otherwise, I would be at rest. That's why I don't like people getting in my way, and why I don't usually bother smiling.
I do often make direct eye contact with people, but that has more to do with staying ready for trouble moreso than being friendly.
I'm aware that you're talking about culture shock; I'm saying that you shouldn't be shocked, because we're not actually being rude. There's just too much going on for us to pay attention to everyone.
And if you go into the REAL upstate areas of New York (the Adirondacks), and you find real rural towns, you'll find people that feel like they're from the south. Things move at a slower pace out there. Once you're within reasonable proximity to any city, things change.
Pete, I am not talking about someone being in your way, I am talking about passing someone on the street. You look them in the eye and smile or say hello as you pass. You don't stop and have a chat. Also, I know you... you aren't THAT busy. ^_~ @ Emily: Briefly making eye contact as you pass someone is not STARING at someone. Just eye contact and a smile can be nice. It isn't aggresive if you smile.
I am theepitomeof Newton's First Law. If I'm walking anywhere, it's because I have somewhere to be; otherwise, I would be at rest. That's why I don't like people getting in my way, and why I don't usually bother smiling.
I do often make direct eye contact with people, but that has more to do with staying ready for trouble moreso than being friendly.
I'm aware that you're talking about culture shock; I'm saying that you shouldn't be shocked, because we're not actually being rude. There's just too much going on for us to pay attention to everyone.
And if you go into the REAL upstate areas of New York (the Adirondacks), and you find real rural towns, you'll find people that feel like they're from the south. Things move at a slower pace out there. Once you're within reasonable proximity to any city, things change.
Ummm. I do not accept your premise that there is too much going on around you when people in large cities in other places in the world are perfectly capable of making eye contact and smiling. You don't do it because you don't think to do it/don't care. That is fine, but stop pretending that the Northern U.S.A. is somehow busier than anywhere else in the world. The truth is, they may just be more self-involved. EDIT: I would also put forth that I have lived in "real" upstate NY. It may not be the Adirondacks, but it was a small farming community.
Pete, I am not talking about someone being in your way, I am talking about passing someone on the street. You look them in the eye and smile or say hello as you pass. You don't stop and have a chat. Also, I know you... you aren't THAT busy. ^_~ @ Emily: Briefly making eye contact as you pass someone is not STARING at someone. Just eye contact and a smile can be nice. It isn't aggresive if you smile.
I am theepitomeof Newton's First Law. If I'm walking anywhere, it's because I have somewhere to be; otherwise, I would be at rest. That's why I don't like people getting in my way, and why I don't usually bother smiling.
I do often make direct eye contact with people, but that has more to do with staying ready for trouble moreso than being friendly.
I'm aware that you're talking about culture shock; I'm saying that you shouldn't be shocked, because we're not actually being rude. There's just too much going on for us to pay attention to everyone.
And if you go into the REAL upstate areas of New York (the Adirondacks), and you find real rural towns, you'll find people that feel like they're from the south. Things move at a slower pace out there. Once you're within reasonable proximity to any city, things change.
Ummm. I do not accept your premise that there is too much going on around you when people in large cities in other places in the world are perfectly capable of making eye contact and smiling. You don't do it because you don't think to do it/don't care. That is fine, but stop pretending that the Northern U.S.A. is somehow busier than anywhere else in the world. The truth is, they may just be more self-involved. EDIT: I would also put forth that I have lived in "real" upstate NY. It may not be the Adirondacks, but it was a small farming community.
Well, yes, we are more self-involved, but that's because we are busier. :P No other city in the US is as bustling as NYC, and that attitude bleeds out into pretty much every corner of the rest of the state, except for the most isolated places. The Adirondacks are very different than the rest of the state, largely because environmental protection laws specifically disallow development. It keeps it locked in the past. There's a difference between living in a rural community 30 minutes outside of Rochester, and living in a rural community where you literally have no neighbors, and the nearest movie theater is more than an hour drive away. The experiences and the people are very different.
But you're right, I don't care about making eye contact and smiling at people. I generally assume that people would rather be left alone, and I'm content to leave people alone. Eye contact especially is used to initiate social interaction, and puts people on edge reflexively. I'm not going to make eye contact and put someone on edge unless I actually have something to say.
We're more than willing to help people out; they just have to say something. Otherwise, we leave people alone because, yes, New Yorkers have more going on (at least in NYC). We have more people, and thus a larger contact network, and thus more social obligations, so the odds are pretty good that we have something to attend to at any given point in time.
where you pass someone on the street or in a hallway and you smile at them
I closely pass thousands of people in the course of my average day, hundreds at a time. It would be physically impossible for me to smile at or in any way, no matter how minor, engage with even a tiny fraction of them. I walk directly past, to the point of rubbing shoulders with, more than a person a second at times. I couldn't even make eye contact with them all if I wanted to.
I do not accept your premise that there is too much going on around you when people in large cities in other places in the world are perfectly capable of making eye contact and smiling.
Seriously, if I smiled and looked at everyone I saw in the eyes, my face would hurt from smiling all the time and I couldn't pay attention to where I was going because I was looking at faces and not in front of me. We filter out information/interaction that is not related to us. And why should I care, anyway? You're right, I don't care. Those people do their thing, I'll do mine.
So last week, right? On my way to get some Yakitori, I saw a lady slip and fall in the street. Myself and maybe five other people helped her up, asked if she was hurt, and kindly made sure she was okay before she continued on. I looked at her face with a nice expression. However, there is no reason for me to smile at the 100+ people I pass on my way to the train, unless there is a reason to approach them. If someone looks at me, I will probably look back. If they smile at me, I will smile back. But I would be looking and smiling at everybody for no reason if I did what you say.
edit: OMG Rym posted the same thing. Seriously, it's our culture up here. Assimilate! Assimilate!
Pete, while NYC may be "busier" because it has more people. I simply cannot accept that teh people themselves are "busier". @ Rym: Like I said, it isn't expected that you will smile at everyone you come within 100 feet from. But if you are standing next to someone waiting for a train or have a few people in your direct line of sight, then - in the South - it would be expected that you acknowledge their existence in some way. Like I said, doesn't mean that people are being rude, but from the Southern perspective it is rude. It is a culture clash and a bit of a shock to those that are not used to it. It completely changes how people interact on a daily basis. @ Emily: I think people should take the best of the cultures they are exposed to. I refuse to "assimilate" a way of being that I find less tasteful. Also, helping people out should happen everywhere and does happen in many places (rural, suburban, and urban alike). Again, not saying that people in NYC aren't decent human beings, just that Northerners in general are perceived as rude by other regions because they are more closed off.
Again, not saying that people in NYC aren't decent human beings, just that Northerners in general are perceived as rude by other regions because they are more closed off.
I don't know that I'd say we're closed off per se, because if you ask for help, you'll find that we're very helpful. I think we're just less socially forward, because that takes time, and time is a commodity.
You're right, it comes down to cultural differences. We need to understand each other's cultures, rather than labeling them as "rude" or "slow" or some such thing. New Yorkers need to understand that people from the South are more forward, and Southerners need to NOT TAKE UP THE ENTIRE SIDEWALK BECAUSE I HAVE PLACES TO BE. :P
You're right, it comes down to cultural differences. We need to understand each other's cultures, rather than labeling them as "rude" or "slow" or some such thing. New Yorkers need to understand that people from the South are more forward, and Southerners need to NOT TAKE UP THE ENTIRE SIDEWALK BECAUSE I HAVE PLACES TO BE. :P
Lols!
I refuse to "assimilate" a way of being that I find less tasteful.
All I'm saying is "When in Rome, do as the Romans, or else you will freak people out."
But if you are standing next to someone waiting for a train
I stand with over a hundred people in close proximity waiting for the train.
have a few people in your direct line of sight
I rarely have a few people in my direct line of sight: it's almost always a large number. It's also very rare, unless I'm waiting for the subway, that I'll ever be publicly standing still in the first place.
I honestly, truly do not have the physical capability to interact with the people I pass in the street. There are just too many of them, and I see them for too little time. In fact, more than once Emily and I have attempted to meet on the street, only to pass eachother unknowingly several times in a row. Humans can't process that much information that fast.
I would go as far as saying that those who don't assimilate to the New York City speed/culture will get pushed around and hurt, it's a city where a naked woman can walk unnoticed for a considerable amount of time.
But if you are standing next to someone waiting for a train
I stand with over a hundred people in close proximity waiting for the train.
have a few people in your direct line of sight
I rarely have a few people in my direct line of sight: it's almost always a large number. It's also very rare, unless I'm waiting for the subway, that I'll ever be publicly standing still in the first place.
I honestly, truly do not have the physical capability to interact with the people I pass in the street. There are just too many of them, and I see them for too little time. In fact, more than once Emily and I have attempted to meet on the street, only to pass each other unknowingly several times in a row. Humans can't process that much information that fast.
I can understand that, but that isn't every moment you are out in public. What about at the grocery store, at a restaurant, waiting at the Beacon train station, while pursuing a store, etc. You have the opportunities, you choose not to take them... it is a choice and it is an okay choice, just a weird one for people from other regions and nations.
Crazy crowded, and most people are facing away from me.
at a restaurant
Crazy crowded, and then I'm seated with my party. Do you engage all of the people at other tables in restaurants commonly? ;^)
waiting at the Beacon train station
Well over a hundred people, and it's crazy early in the morning (people are very tired). In the evening, it's a mad rush to get out before the traffic starts to get bad, and there are still many, many, many people. More people use the Beacon train station every morning than live in many small towns.
pursuing a store
Crazy crowded most of the time, and everyone's facing away from me shopping.
You have the opportunities, you choose not to take them...
Yes, I do, and I DO take them all the time. I talk to people randomly and smile and make eye contact and all of that. But you seem not to understand that for every person I nod to, I miss thousands out of sheer necessity. The vast majority of people I pass cannot be in any way interacted with. As such, the few that I do are a drop in the bucket, and it would appear that I ignore the world.
Even if every single person in New York smiled and made eye contact with everyone they physically could in the street, the vast majority would be missed. It's a matter of scale, nothing more.
That phenomenon is partly responsible for the attitude of most New Yorkers: we can't interact with everyone we see, so if someone doesn't interact with you, we don't take it personally. If someone on a busy street ignores me, I know it's because they probably have something to do, and there are too many people for me to reasonably expect them to pay attention to me above anyone else. Is it rude if we literally cannot interact with everyone we see?
Did you mean peruse? It seems a bit strange to pursue a store.
I did. @ Rym: It is nice that you do it at all. You are a rarity. I never said "attempt to do it to everyone". Also, I wasn't speaking about NYC in general. I mean in places like Beacon, Rochester, Albany, Clifton Park, etc. It is all of the North (not just NYC).
I have lived in the South and I am very suspicious about the whole "southern friendliness" thing. When I lived there I found, more often than not, that friendliness rapidly dissipated if they found any indication that you weren't a bible-thumping Christian, a hunting and fishing good ole boy, a rabid basketball or football fan, or even sometimes if you went to college. Forget about it if there's anything about you that might lead them to believe you're gay.
In my experience, friendliness shown to you in the North may be more rare, but it's usually more tolerant and genuine than the perfunctory and often fake Southern friendliness.
I think the more rural you go the more people are xenophobic and territorial, but the more urban you get the more you're desensitised to the constant mass of people around you.
Comments
If I have somewhere to be, and you're in my way, I'm either going to move around you, or tell you to get out of my way. I may do so politely - "Excuse me" - but that's the extent of my needed social niceties. If I'm headed somewhere, I see no particular reason to acknowledge someone else unless they address me directly. Some people might consider that rude, but I find that viewpoint to be more self-centered than anything else. You're telling me I should do something different just to acknowledge your existence?
Now, if someone asks me a question or something, I'll often stop to answer it. I may answer quickly, but I'll still answer.
They will not, however, bother acknowledging anyone who does not directly concern or address them. And frankly, I like it that way.
@ Emily: Briefly making eye contact as you pass someone is not STARING at someone. Just eye contact and a smile can be nice. It isn't aggresive if you smile.
(I think this is just something that population dense places have. I say hi to my neighbors all the time, and to people I see in the office building often. I say hi to the doorman, who recognizes me. People you recognize or see frequently, it is not weird to smile at them. However, perfect strangers on the subway will become unnerved.)
For people from the South, the behavior seems rude. It may not be intended and it may be acceptable in the North, but for people from the South (even Southern cities - yes, I know it is hard for NYCers to believe that there are other cities, particularly any in the South, but trust me - they exist) it is major culture shock.
I do often make direct eye contact with people, but that has more to do with staying ready for trouble moreso than being friendly.
I'm aware that you're talking about culture shock; I'm saying that you shouldn't be shocked, because we're not actually being rude. There's just too much going on for us to pay attention to everyone.
And if you go into the REAL upstate areas of New York (the Adirondacks), and you find real rural towns, you'll find people that feel like they're from the south. Things move at a slower pace out there. Once you're within reasonable proximity to any city, things change.
EDIT: I would also put forth that I have lived in "real" upstate NY. It may not be the Adirondacks, but it was a small farming community.
But you're right, I don't care about making eye contact and smiling at people. I generally assume that people would rather be left alone, and I'm content to leave people alone. Eye contact especially is used to initiate social interaction, and puts people on edge reflexively. I'm not going to make eye contact and put someone on edge unless I actually have something to say.
We're more than willing to help people out; they just have to say something. Otherwise, we leave people alone because, yes, New Yorkers have more going on (at least in NYC). We have more people, and thus a larger contact network, and thus more social obligations, so the odds are pretty good that we have something to attend to at any given point in time.
So last week, right? On my way to get some Yakitori, I saw a lady slip and fall in the street. Myself and maybe five other people helped her up, asked if she was hurt, and kindly made sure she was okay before she continued on. I looked at her face with a nice expression. However, there is no reason for me to smile at the 100+ people I pass on my way to the train, unless there is a reason to approach them. If someone looks at me, I will probably look back. If they smile at me, I will smile back. But I would be looking and smiling at everybody for no reason if I did what you say.
edit: OMG Rym posted the same thing. Seriously, it's our culture up here. Assimilate! Assimilate!
@ Rym: Like I said, it isn't expected that you will smile at everyone you come within 100 feet from. But if you are standing next to someone waiting for a train or have a few people in your direct line of sight, then - in the South - it would be expected that you acknowledge their existence in some way.
Like I said, doesn't mean that people are being rude, but from the Southern perspective it is rude. It is a culture clash and a bit of a shock to those that are not used to it. It completely changes how people interact on a daily basis.
@ Emily: I think people should take the best of the cultures they are exposed to. I refuse to "assimilate" a way of being that I find less tasteful. Also, helping people out should happen everywhere and does happen in many places (rural, suburban, and urban alike). Again, not saying that people in NYC aren't decent human beings, just that Northerners in general are perceived as rude by other regions because they are more closed off.
You're right, it comes down to cultural differences. We need to understand each other's cultures, rather than labeling them as "rude" or "slow" or some such thing. New Yorkers need to understand that people from the South are more forward, and Southerners need to NOT TAKE UP THE ENTIRE SIDEWALK BECAUSE I HAVE PLACES TO BE. :P
I honestly, truly do not have the physical capability to interact with the people I pass in the street. There are just too many of them, and I see them for too little time. In fact, more than once Emily and I have attempted to meet on the street, only to pass eachother unknowingly several times in a row. Humans can't process that much information that fast.
Even if every single person in New York smiled and made eye contact with everyone they physically could in the street, the vast majority would be missed. It's a matter of scale, nothing more.
@ Rym: It is nice that you do it at all. You are a rarity. I never said "attempt to do it to everyone". Also, I wasn't speaking about NYC in general. I mean in places like Beacon, Rochester, Albany, Clifton Park, etc. It is all of the North (not just NYC).
In my experience, friendliness shown to you in the North may be more rare, but it's usually more tolerant and genuine than the perfunctory and often fake Southern friendliness.