And this is precisely why I don't give two shits about game theory.
See, Scrym ruins things INTENTIONALLY with game theory. I am a student of game design, and I air more on the side of the kind that people like Egoraptor use to intelligently analyze games (in Sequelitis). You can analyze the way a game works without ruining them.
Name a game that is ruined by Scrym-nalysis but not by intelligent analysis. If a game falls apart under scrutiny, then it was a crap game.
And this is precisely why I don't give two shits about game theory.
See, Scrym ruins things INTENTIONALLY with game theory. I am a student of game design, and I air more on the side of the kind that people like Egoraptor use to intelligently analyze games (in Sequelitis). You can analyze the way a game works without ruining them.
Name a game that is ruined by Scrym-nalysis but not by intelligent analysis.
Pretty much any game that is a shooter that isn't focused on being the fastest and most strategic. They dislike things like TF2 for not providing the skills they like, and by their analysis, yes, games that are at a lower level like that are less worth playing by themselves. I disagree on an inherent level that it's worse if it requires less skills.
So the way I'm seeing it now is I agree with you Rym on your points but I would justify buying video games because I want something interactive that would take me on an adventure but I don't have a group of friends devoted to playing tabletop stuff with me so I need something that is single player.
Pretty much any game that is a shooter that isn't focused on being the fastest and most strategic. They dislike things like TF2 for not providing the skills they like, and by their analysis, yes, games that are at a lower level like that are less worth playing by themselves. I disagree on an inherent level that it's worse if it requires less skills.
That's a ridiculous interpretation of my argument on TF2.
But, how can you disagree that games requiring fewer skills and with a lower cap on the effects of skill is a worse game for someone who acquires said skills and seeks mastery of the same?
I never said TF2 was a bad game. I said I didn't like it. (It became a BAD game solely because of hats).
So the way I'm seeing it now is I agree with you Rym on your points but I would justify buying video games because I want something interactive that would take me on an adventure but I don't have a group of friends devoted to playing tabletop stuff with me so I need something that is single player.
Problem: no friends. Solution: play alone.
Maybe you should rethink your strategy? Next time you are about to play a single player game, go make friends instead.
Stories in games are fantastic! The problem is that too often the story is literally the only thing the game has going for it. When that happens, why waste your time with it? Why not just make it a movie or a novel?
A good game with a bad story is still a good game. A bad game with a good story is just a movie with quicktime events forced into it.
I think I said that game is collection of different things. A mix. Obviously if game is shit it isn't saved by style or writing, but good writing or style or other elements can make video game with decent game part something worth to play. I have played quite a few video games that have been flawed on a gameplay side just because of the good writing.
Also watching things is not the same as being in control of things. It's not same if I passively watch Batman being Batman, punching dudes, scaring dudes and bataranging dudes, but if I'm controlling the Batman, if I'm the God-damn Batman it's awesome.
So the way I'm seeing it now is I agree with you Rym on your points but I would justify buying video games because I want something interactive that would take me on an adventure but I don't have a group of friends devoted to playing tabletop stuff with me so I need something that is single player.
Problem: no friends. Solution: play alone.
Maybe you should rethink your strategy? Next time you are about to play a single player game, go make friends instead.
Well I have a lot of friends, but none of them are really interested in games the way I am, but we share many other interests. Also if I'm content with playing single player games to get my fix then that works for me. Also it is usually a time issue.
Ultimately, my point is that the game that requires the most skill is not necessarily the best. You can gain enjoyment from things other than being challenged. Scrym may not, but that is why I respect their lectures but don't practice them absolutely.
So the way I'm seeing it now is I agree with you Rym on your points but I would justify buying video games because I want something interactive that would take me on an adventure but I don't have a group of friends devoted to playing tabletop stuff with me so I need something that is single player.
Problem: no friends. Solution: play alone.
Maybe you should rethink your strategy? Next time you are about to play a single player game, go make friends instead.
Well I have a lot of friends, but none of them are really interested in games the way I am, but we share many other interests. Also if I'm content with playing single player games to get my fix then that works for me. Also it is usually a time issue.
Multiplayer takes less time than single player! Round of Counter-Strike against people on the Internets, 5 minutes. JRPG - 10% of your life.
Ultimately, my point is that the game that requires the most skill is not necessarily the best. You can gain enjoyment from things other than being challenged. Scrym may not, but that is why I respect their lectures but don't practice them absolutely.
That's a nice straw man you have there. It goes well with this autumn season. Who ever said that a game requiring the most skill is the best?
So the way I'm seeing it now is I agree with you Rym on your points but I would justify buying video games because I want something interactive that would take me on an adventure but I don't have a group of friends devoted to playing tabletop stuff with me so I need something that is single player.
Problem: no friends. Solution: play alone.
Maybe you should rethink your strategy? Next time you are about to play a single player game, go make friends instead.
Well I have a lot of friends, but none of them are really interested in games the way I am, but we share many other interests. Also if I'm content with playing single player games to get my fix then that works for me. Also it is usually a time issue.
Multiplayer takes less time than single player! Round of Counter-Strike against people on the Internets, 5 minutes. JRPG - 10% of your life.
Multiplayer doesn't have story and adventure, which is what we're arguing. Multiplayer is often a skill challenge. Rym was saying that single player games that don't challenge skill or intellectually stimulating only have so much value and that value to him is low ($5). So why do I want to play Dishonored? Probably because my adventure fix is not usually Burning Wheel or anything like that because finding people who want to play and coordinating that is often very difficult, so I'm willing to pay $30 to have that sense of adventure (even if it's a fixed experience) because that is just easier for me. When I hang out with friends we're often doing something outside or making music, etc.
So the way I'm seeing it now is I agree with you Rym on your points but I would justify buying video games because I want something interactive that would take me on an adventure but I don't have a group of friends devoted to playing tabletop stuff with me so I need something that is single player.
Problem: no friends. Solution: play alone.
Maybe you should rethink your strategy? Next time you are about to play a single player game, go make friends instead.
Well I have a lot of friends, but none of them are really interested in games the way I am, but we share many other interests. Also if I'm content with playing single player games to get my fix then that works for me. Also it is usually a time issue.
Multiplayer takes less time than single player! Round of Counter-Strike against people on the Internets, 5 minutes. JRPG - 10% of your life.
Multiplayer doesn't have story and adventure, which is what we're arguing. Multiplayer is often a skill challenge. Rym was saying that single player games that don't challenge skill or intellectually stimulating only have so much value and that value to him is low ($5). So why do I want to play Dishonored? Probably because my adventure fix is not usually Burning Wheel or anything like that because finding people who want to play and coordinating that is often very difficult, so I'm willing to pay $30 to have that sense of adventure (even if it's a fixed experience) because that is just easier for me. When I hang out with friends we're often doing something outside or making music, etc.
Watch a movie or read a book. Then you can get even more adventure without having to play a shitty game. Also, much cheaper!
The problem in just watching a movie or reading a book is that they are not interactive mediums on the same scale as gaming. I enjoy genuinely feeling like I'm actually playing a part within a story, which is why I like playing single player games.
Edit: Ninja'd
I've been playing Silent Hill 2 recently and nothing short of Lovecraft has gotten me as scared as I have been while playing that game. There is something to be said about the power of interaction to push the forming of emotions and desires to the next level.
You are all going to end up being gifted Bad Rats and Dinner Date. I just want to see if someone's head explodes at those games getting money given to them.
I think some people in this thread are conflating "game as skill test" with "game as storytelling medium". Or it might be more along the lines of "game as puzzle" vs "game as experience"
Some games are more than just one thing. I love me some dead space, but not because the game play is good (or not so good). I like dead space because of the atmosphere and the immersion.
I think it's perfectly valid to conflate all of the aspects of gaming that people might find enjoyable and in fact, I think it's the default position for the discussion. Dissecting games into component parts is mostly academic and one really needs to specify that's what they're doing in order to steer the conversation there. A game is a complete product including gameplay (which includes things like control scheme and responsiveness), art, soundtrack, plot...
I would argue that the only two games to come out in recent time that have been worth playing on day one are Borderlands 2 and Diablo 2. BL2 because it basically is a multiplayer game, and Diablo 2 because it burned fast and bright and then died off.
Perhaps I'm just too young, but I wouldn't really call Diablo 2 a recent game.
I'd have to disagree with that sentiment about Dead Space. I found that the over the shoulder camera felt claustrophobic in a manufactured sense, and the moments that were supposed to be tense simply weren't. It was easy to tell when something was going to pop out, and the gameplay simply wasn't engaging with the shooting being unsatisfying.
I would argue that the only two games to come out in recent time that have been worth playing on day one are Borderlands 2 and Diablo 2. BL2 because it basically is a multiplayer game, and Diablo 2 because it burned fast and bright and then died off.
Perhaps I'm just too young, but I wouldn't really call Diablo 2 a recent game.
I think it's perfectly valid to conflate all of the aspects of gaming that people might find enjoyable and in fact, I think it's the default position for the discussion. Dissecting games into component parts is mostly academic and one really needs to specify that's what they're doing in order to steer the conversation there. A game is a complete product including gameplay (which includes things like control scheme and responsiveness), art, soundtrack, plot...
Conflate away, just don't say that a game is shit based on a judgement of just one aspect.
Video games are a fairly poor storytelling medium.
I'd have to disagree with that sentiment about Dead Space. I found that the over the shoulder camera felt claustrophobic in a manufactured sense, and the moments that were supposed to be tense simply weren't. It was easy to tell when something was going to pop out, and the gameplay simply wasn't engaging with the shooting being unsatisfying.
The atmosphere was alright, too.
You disagree with my recollection of my own opinion about Dead Space? That's a little rude. I didn't say that dead space is good. Just that I like it.
I'm not really qualified to give objective statements as to the quality of games, so I limit my statements to what my opinion of them is rather than claiming that a game is great or shit. I think that would be arrogant.
Comments
This book agrees with everything we have ever said about games. Read it, and then you are allowed to talk.
Characteristics of Games
But, how can you disagree that games requiring fewer skills and with a lower cap on the effects of skill is a worse game for someone who acquires said skills and seeks mastery of the same?
I never said TF2 was a bad game. I said I didn't like it. (It became a BAD game solely because of hats).
Maybe you should rethink your strategy? Next time you are about to play a single player game, go make friends instead.
Also watching things is not the same as being in control of things. It's not same if I passively watch Batman being Batman, punching dudes, scaring dudes and bataranging dudes, but if I'm controlling the Batman, if I'm the God-damn Batman it's awesome.
Edit: Ninja'd
I've been playing Silent Hill 2 recently and nothing short of Lovecraft has gotten me as scared as I have been while playing that game. There is something to be said about the power of interaction to push the forming of emotions and desires to the next level.
Some games are more than just one thing. I love me some dead space, but not because the game play is good (or not so good). I like dead space because of the atmosphere and the immersion.
The atmosphere was alright, too.
I'm not really qualified to give objective statements as to the quality of games, so I limit my statements to what my opinion of them is rather than claiming that a game is great or shit. I think that would be arrogant.
Besides have you read the "vast majority" of books? A sizable majority of the ones that manage to get published are still pretty bad.
Edit: Semi Ninja'd by MATATAT