GeekNights 090709 - Immortality

Apreche

Tonight on GeekNights we discuss various things pertaining to the concept of immortality. In the news, some guy got his guitar smashed by United Airlines and MechWarrior is back!

Rym's Thing - Phone Booth NY
Rym's Thing - Tornado Fries
Scott's Thing - Tornado vs. Train

Walker

This sounds like it'll be a fun show.

BrutishSaucer

I'm glad you hit on the one true key to happiness: memory loss. Life would be nigh perfect if you could selectively forget things. Get the same impact from your favorite book night after night. Never grow tired of your loved one's naughty bits. Grandma dead? Just forget she died. Combined with immortality, it would be a true personal utopia. I think selective memory loss is a relatively obtainable goal and hope they it perfect before I marry.

As for consciousness, I'm not yet convinced that other people have conscious minds. I can't even prove self-awareness to myself without resorting to circular logic.

Victor Frost

Shit! I thought today was Wednesday. That's a problem with immortality, the passage of time means very little.

chaosof99

This sounds like fun. I desperately need to catch up to Geek Nights. My recent podcasting time has been mostly allocated to Non-Prophets since I listened to their entire archive (and is was well worth it).

Apsup

I would like to say, that I kinda like your style of starting to talk about something without telling what it is, even when listener already knows what it is. I think that it is a nice way to build tension to the topic.

And talking about the topic without telling what it is is always better than "Why do we do that, we have to stop" -talk you have done. (And did in this episode.)

Churba

I'm glad you hit on the one true key to happiness: memory loss. Life would be nigh perfect if you could selectively forget things. Get the same impact from your favorite book night after night. Never grow tired of your loved one's naughty bits. Grandma dead? Just forget she died. Combined with immortality, it would be a true personal utopia. I think selective memory loss is a relatively obtainable goal and hope they it perfect before I marry.

I wouldn't touch that for all the hydrogen in the universe. When I was born, I was nothing but a drooling, chubby bundle of autonomic nervous system processes and poop. I am still that same bundle (though I tend to drool and shit myself rather less) - My experiences, knowledge and memories - good and bad - make me who and what I am. To lose them is to die without death, to float through life as nothing but a walking meat-locker, the only reminder of who I was being the second order simulacra that my online presence would become.

TL:DR - No thanks, my memories are somewhat important to me, even the bad ones.

Cremlian

Awwww man, If there was a show that I could have talked about extensively it's the concepts of immortality and the biology behind it (I was obsessed with it in my late teens early 20s).

Rym

I'm glad you hit on the one true key to happiness: memory loss.

I disagree with you 100%.

Life would be nigh perfect if you could selectively forget things.

Except that you wouldn't be you, you'd have no perspective, and you'd drift further and further into a static state.

I think selective memory loss is a relatively obtainable goal and hope they it perfect before I marry.

I cannot imagine any situation where this would be desirable in any capacity.

As for consciousness, I'm not yet convinced that other people have conscious minds.

Pragmatism proves that they do even if solipsism itself cannot.

I can't even prove self-awareness to myself without resorting to circular logic.

I'd suggest you study the great body of thought that already exists regarding solipsism.

Jason

Forget any prejudice you have against Anne Rice. Lestat the Vampire is a great book and has a lot to say about the curse and benefits of immortality, and its anti-theistic implications. As a matter of fact, when I get up the energy to blog some more, I might write a review/recommendation.

Also, United allegedly broke the guitar -- not Delta, as Scott's topmost post indicates.

TheWhaleShark

Grandma dead? Just forget she died.

Fuck you. That is all.

Kate Monster

Grandma dead? Just forget she died.

Fuck you. That is all.

QFT.
You forget she is dead and then go to visit her. You then find out she is dead and get to grieve all over again. That is a great idea. In the alternative, you forget she ever lived. That is a level of soullessness I could never fathom.
Every moment and every experience shapes a person and shapes reality at large. To forget, whether selectively or not, is to become stagnant and to deny reality. To me, that is a fate far, far worse than death.

Funnily enough, there was a Doctor Who episode in which humans could choose their mood and selectively forget by taking drugs. Everyone was a drone and it nearly wiped out the earth when a bad batch started killing people. Now, I am not saying that Doctor Who should be the basis of a lifestyle or moral code, I just thought it was a neat episode. Plus, it had the Face of Bo, so that is always a giggle.

Forget any prejudice you have against Anne Rice.Lestat the Vampireis a great book and has a lot to say about the curse and benefits of immortality, and its anti-theistic implications. As a matter of fact, when I get up the energy to blog some more, I might write a review/recommendation.

I completely agree with you. The Vampire Armand was also quite good and provided another, slightly different perspective on the same issues of immortality.

Churba

Now, I am not saying that Doctor Who should be the basis of a lifestyle or moral code,

I am hurt and offended by this.

HungryJoe

I think selective memory loss is a relatively obtainable goal . . .

It is a goal that has already been obtained. We call it Everclear. If you're a wussy emo kid, you can use absinthe.

lackofcheese

I think selective memory loss is a relatively obtainable goal . . .

It is a goal that has already been obtained.

As you would of course know, immortality is another goal that has already been obtained.

TheWhaleShark

You forget she is dead and then go to visit her. You then find out she is dead and get to grieve all over again. That is a great idea. In the alternative, you forget she ever lived. That is a level of soullessness I could never fathom.

I have a great aunt with Alzheimer's or something very similar. She can remember who I am and what we've been talking about for roughly 15 minutes at a time. I've sat down and explained to her several times in the same hour that her sister isn't there to see her because she died 3 years ago. Watching her get very sad and depressed, forget what it was that made her sad and depressed, and then repeat the whole process, is very emotionally draining, to say the least. It's worse when she asks where my father is and I go through the same process over and over again.

I'll keep my memories, thank you very much.

As for the topic at hand, I'm pretty sure immortality would suck ass. Look at the Nonmen. That's all I'm saying.

Kate Monster

I have a great aunt with Alzheimer's or something very similar. She can remember who I am and what we've been talking about for roughly 15 minutes at a time. I've sat down and explained to her several times in the same hour that her sister isn't there to see her because she died 3 years ago. Watching her get very sad and depressed, forget what it was that made her sad and depressed, and then repeat the whole process, is very emotionally draining, to say the least. It's worse when she asks where my father is and I go through the same process over and over again.

This is by no means a recommendation, but have you ever considered not telling her the truth just to give her a happy moment? It enteres a serious moral grey area and I am interested in your (or any one's) thoughts on the matter.

Apreche

As for the topic at hand, I'm pretty sure immortality would suck ass. Look at the Nonmen. That's all I'm saying.

I may be uncertain about whether immortality is good or bad. So much of that depends upon realities of our universe which are unknown and/or beyond our control. What I do know is that longer life is definitely good, on an individual level. Everyone living longer may be a drain on society, etc. But I definitely would not mind sticking around for 10,000 years or so.

Kate Monster

As for the topic at hand, I'm pretty sure immortality would suck ass. Look at the Nonmen. That's all I'm saying.

I may be uncertain about whether immortality is good or bad. So much of that depends upon realities of our universe which are unknown and/or beyond our control. What I do know is that longer life is definitely good, on an individual level. Everyone living longer may be a drain on society, etc. But I definitely would not mind sticking around for 10,000 years or so.

What if living that long came with a mental and/or physical cost?

Victor Frost

I agree. Although it seems immortality would bring a certain degree of unrest for the mind.

Churba

What if living that long came with a mental and/or physical cost?

Hmmm.....Good point, Immortal does not mean that you don't age, just that you don't die.

VentureJ

I think selective memory loss is a relatively obtainable goal . . .

It is a goal that has already been obtained. We call it Everclear. If you're a wussy emo kid, you can use absinthe.

How about selective memory loss after the fact?

Andrew

Luckily, I've discovered quite a few Lazarus Pits in my time on this planet.

Li_Akahi

Luckily, I've discovered quite a few Lazarus Pits in my time on this planet.

Remember, they cause insanity to whoever uses them. Wait, that would actually explain a lot.

TheWhaleShark

I have a great aunt with Alzheimer's or something very similar. She can remember who I am and what we've been talking about for roughly 15 minutes at a time. I've sat down and explained to her several times in the same hour that her sister isn't there to see her because she died 3 years ago. Watching her get very sad and depressed, forget what it was that made her sad and depressed, and then repeat the whole process, is very emotionally draining, to say the least. It's worse when she asks where my father is and I go through the same process over and over again.

This is by no means a recommendation, but have you ever considered not telling her the truth just to give her a happy moment? It enteres a serious moral grey area and I am interested in your (or any one's) thoughts on the matter.

Oh, I've done it before. However, that was never for her peace of mind; it was only ever to make things easier on me and the other people around me. At some point, you have to think about your own sanity, as hers is no longer part of the equation. At least, that's been my experience. It sucks, and I feel terrible because I'm lying to her, but it's also an impossible situation.

Jason

But I definitely would not mind sticking around for 10,000 years or so.

What if living that long came with a mental and/or physical cost?

Human lives were extended in the junior science fiction novel The Forever Formula, which predicted that retired persons would basically enslave the young in poverty and menial jobs, swelling ranks until the aged had enough political clout to revoke the civil rights of the young. The spiral effect was not pretty.

Apreche

But I definitely would not mind sticking around for 10,000 years or so.

What if living that long came with a mental and/or physical cost?

Human lives were extended in the junior science fiction novelThe Forever Formula, which predicted that retired persons would basically enslave the young in poverty and menial jobs, swelling ranks until the aged had enough political clout to revoke the civil rights of the young. The spiral effect was not pretty.

-left-

Please, make more shows like this!!!! And not just because it's fun to listen to you guys argue. =D

And if someone did manage to achieve immortality, I think they would end up looking for ways to successfully end said immortality. Probably not too fun, depending on the type of immortality. If you couldn't be physically harmed, nothing short of eating a nuke is going to help much.

Space travel would be a whole lot more interesting, though. The nearest life-supporting planet is a couple thousand years away? Not a problem. If someone invents a spaceship faster than the speed of light while you're gone, they just pick you up on their way there.

Loganator456

My optimal situation for me would be to have a pretty long life (200/300 to maybe even 1000 years), but to not be immortal and stop aging at around my mid-20's, or maybe younger. Immortality is both a fascinating and very frightening thing for me, so TL;DR- Immortality= Bad. Long life with conditions listed above= quite the awesome.

BrutishSaucer

My experiences, knowledge and memories - good and bad - make me who and what I am. To lose them is to die without death, to float through life as nothing but a walking meat-locker, the only reminder of who I was being the second order simulacra that my online presence would become.

Every moment and every experience shapes a person and shapes reality at large. To forget, whether selectively or not, is to become stagnant and to deny reality. To me, that is a fate far, far worse than death.

Except that you wouldn't be you, you'd have no perspective, and you'd drift further and further into a static state.

Fuck you. That is all.

It's important not to forget that I'm talking about selective memory loss. It can be as simple as hearing an amazing song, and then doing it again for the first time every day afterwards.

I would agree that memories and knowledge make us who we are but I would also argue that who we are is never something we can claim to possess. The me right now is not going to be the exact same me in a few minutes. Ergo, "we" are not so special. It's like classic sci-fi when someone is replicated perfectly and both copies claim to be the original. The punchline is that the original was lost the moment it was "the original."

I think people are wrong when they assume that they are necessarily better for their experiences. There are countless examples where one could argue that experiences and knowledge have royally fudged up a person's life. If you were to look at alternate versions of those people, it's quite possible that they would be happier, healthier, and better for not having experienced certain things. Still, I find it likely that the damaged goods people would hesitate to remove the bad memories because they fear losing their sense of self, just as much as another would fear being implanted with false memories.

As far as the idea of becoming static, it really depends on who's being asked. I think you'd have to lose memories in order to retain perspective given an infinite life span, because the only point at which you'd experience no change is when you've experienced everything. An outside observer may look at an individual's repeat experiences as stasis, but to the individual it's going to effectively be a new experience each time. Objectively you're static, but relative to your own mind, you're not. Put differently, what does it matter if you never "grow" as a person as long as you're happy. Maybe that's where the disconnect is. I view personal happiness as the only reasonable objective in one's life. There's many ways achieve and maintain this; selective memory loss would just be an efficient and highly controllable means.

All of us are dropping memories all the time. We all deny reality in some form. Ever go out to get your mind off something? The vast majority of our memories we do keep aren't actually being used at any given time. We pull them up given the context of our situation and promptly wipe them from RAM once again so that we can refill it with the name of that actor from that movie. Nothing here I'm suggesting is fundamentally different from what we do to ourselves every day, except that it's a much more surgical approach, better refined, and ultimately more effective now at an introductory low cost.

I apologize to anyone whom I may have offended by suggesting that you forget the dear memory of a grandmother's death. Forgetting any event which involves other living people would be ill-advised for obvious reasons. All neuronauts are asked to refrain from memory selection that would cause a disconnect with other persons, as not to complicate everyday life. If however you are the only one involved, I don't see it causing a problem. The you right now might say it was a soulless act, but the you of tomorrow will say, "Whuh? Whaddya talking 'bout? Forget what?" Besides, when/if you finally die, their memory dies with you. Even if you tell your kids and your grandchildren and your great grandchildren about your wonderful relation with this person, eventually they will be forgotten by all of time.

But back to the topic, I would totally take immortality in a heartbeat - even in hell, except the 7th circle cuz that one sucked.

Andrew

I think people are wrong when they assume that they are necessarily better for their experiences. There are countless examples where one could argue that experiences and knowledge have royally fudged up a person's life. If you were to look at alternate versions of those people, it's quite possible that they would be happier, healthier, and better for not having experienced certain things.

A fundamental aspect of the human condition is dealing with hardship. By removing these experiences, you remove what makes us human, for better or for worse.