Personally I think it's great that this guy was able to set his mind to something and achieve it. I really hate this argument that people have where they think someone is a loser or worthless for doing something that they believe is beneath them. Just because an activity isn't creative or doesn't produce anything doesn't make it worthless. I fully respect this guy because he come to the conclusion that he wanted to be the best he could be at something that he liked. He is, in my eyes, no different than a sports athlete, who is in fact, just someone who constantly strives to be the best at what he or she does.
I also hate that some of the people here, as most people do, assume that the guy has no friends, doesn't go outside, etc. You don't know that. I will make that judgment once I meet the guy. Just as a personal anecdote, when I was in college there was a guy that I would always run into at the gym. This guy seemed to know everybody who came into the gym, myself included. The same thing would happen when I'd run into him at the bars or house parties or whatever, he knew everybody and was a fun guy to be around. Then one day we're talking and we get on the subject of video games. It didn't really surprise me that he was into games, since we mostly talked about popular FPSes and the like. But later on he invites me over to play some games with him, and I'm all down for it. One look at his game shelf and I was absolutely floored. The guy is a HUGE RPG fanatic. We just start talking about RPGs and he's going on about all the games that we've both played, how he's done shit in some of those games that I would never attempt in my life, and he's talking about RPGs that I've never even heard of. I was utterly shocked to find out that this guy, who is extremely popular and is a hardcore jock, is also a hardcore video gamer.
Needless to say, that was a big lesson for me about never assuming anything about anyone until you've actually investigated.
I also hate that some of the people here, as most people do, assume that the guy has no friends, doesn't go outside, etc. You don't know that
I think we're talking probability.
I'd like to point out that it is possible to do these things quicker than you realize. It is very possible that he power leveled over a few weeks to max out his level, and then did all of the easy stuff he skipped in order to finish the achievements. If this is the case, then he could've found time to talk to people and such. Also, it doesn't say how long it took him. Maybe he's been playing since the game came out in 2004. If he has, then he's definitely had the time to go outside.
I'd like to point out that it is possible to do these things quicker than you realize. It is very possible that he power leveled over a few weeks to max out his level, and then did all of the easy stuff he skipped in order to finish the achievements. If this is the case, then he could've found time to talk to people and such. Also, it doesn't say how long it took him. Maybe he's been playing since the game came out in 2004. If he has, then he's definitely had the time to go outside.
Again, I think you're really underestimating the lengths you have to go to to get WoW achievements. Having a high leveled character doesn't make the time sink required to get many of WoW's achievements any shorter.
I fully respect this guy because he come to the conclusion that he wanted to be the best he could be at something that he liked. He is, in my eyes, no different than a sports athlete, who is in fact, just someone who constantly strives to be the best at what he or she does.
How high is the skill cap in WoW? I can respect someone who decides to be the best at Quake or Starcraft, where the skill cap is really high, but I don't imagine that it's that hard to be the best you can possibly be at an MMORPG.
Maybe he's been playing since the game came out in 2004. If he has, then he's definitely had the time to go outside.
I think the achievements were introduced within the past year, not to mention recent expansions and patches.
I'd like to point out that it is possible to do these things quicker than you realize. It is very possible that he power leveled over a few weeks to max out his level, and then did all of the easy stuff he skipped in order to finish the achievements. If this is the case, then he could've found time to talk to people and such. Also, it doesn't say how long it took him. Maybe he's been playing since the game came out in 2004. If he has, then he's definitely had the time to go outside.
Again, I think you're really underestimating the lengths you have to go to to get WoW achievements. Having a high leveled character doesn't make the time sink required to get many of WoW's achievements any shorter.
A few of them, yeah. Instead of doing all the long, low-experience quests at the right level, you can do a ton when you're overleveled for them. They still will count for many achievements, and help you further. Same with lower level instances that can then be soloed, allowing for you to not deal with group play until later.
Maybe he's been playing since the game came out in 2004. If he has, then he's definitely had the time to go outside.
Posted By: GÃœNTER 2.0I think the achievements were introduced within the past year, not to mention recent expansions and patches.But if he had a lot of stuff done previously, they would've still counted for the achievements. If he had 100's of quests completed and was level 70, then he'd get all of those achievements based on levels, quests, and probably dungeon completion once he upgraded his account.
That's why I said "many of WoW's achievements" instead of all. I don't think getting 100,000 honorable kills in PvP is going to be any easier with a high leveled character.
That's why I said "many of WoW's achievements" instead of all. I don't think getting 100,000 honorable kills in PvP is going to be any easier with a high leveled character.
Maybe, maybe not. I'm not saying it's not a huge time waste, but not the 15 hours a day everyone seems to be acting like it is. I imagine, with enough practice, 5-6 hours a day could accomplish that. And considering that's how much time most people spend on various forms of entertainment, unless he was playing other games and watching lots of T.V. or something, that's really okay if he does that for so many hours, and spends the rest of the day working/socializing.
Again, I think you're really underestimating the lengths you have to go to to get WoW achievements. Having a high leveled character doesn't make the time sink required to get many of WoW's achievements any shorter.
Having a high level character may not, but intelligent play often does. Again, we don't know.
How high is the skill cap in WoW? I can respect someone who decides to be the best at Quake or Starcraft, where the skill cap is really high, but I don't imagine that it's that hard to be the best you can possibly be at an MMORPG.
This ties into above since we can't say whether the guy slogged it out through just grinding, or if he utilized intelligent strategies to accomplish quests. I would have to assume that because he did everything in the game that gives out achievements, that he is probably in the upper tier of players.
How high is the skill cap in WoW? I can respect someone who decides to be the best at Quake or Starcraft, where the skill cap is really high, but I don't imagine that it'sthathard to be the best you can possibly be at an MMORPG.
At max level, especially in battlegrounds and arenas, the skill cap is very high. Precise timing and planning between 5 people versus 5 others, coordinating targets, etc.
I just wanted to point out that no one has mentioned his guildies. Four of the guildies have over 10k achievement points and twelve more have over 9k achievement points. He probably didn't do most of this alone, which would cut down on the time needed if they're coordinating well. I make the assumption that they can coordinate well because the guild has all the recordable server firsts for boss kills.
I just wanted to point out that no one has mentioned his guildies. Four of the guildies have over 10k achievement points and twelve more have over 9k achievement points. He probably didn't do most of this alone, which would cut down on the time needed if they're coordinating well. I make the assumption that they can coordinate well because the guild has all the recordable server firsts for boss kills.
I just wanted to point out that no one has mentioned his guildies. Four of the guildies have over 10k achievement points and twelve more have over 9k achievement points. He probably didn't do most of this alone, which would cut down on the time needed if they're coordinating well. I make the assumption that they can coordinate well because the guild has all the recordable server firsts for boss kills.
Yeah, a good number of those achievements have to be done in raids of 10 or 25 people. A lot of those raiding ones take a log of coordination to do, along with the PVP/Arena matches.
My hat's off to the guy. I currently only have 573/986 achievements, and I probably barely get past 600 because I don't do everything there is to do in WoW.
I also like/agree with theknoxinator.
I want to point out that many of those end-game guilds are sponsored and get paid to do this shit. So if you get paid to be awesome in WoW, more power to you.
I just wanted to point out that no one has mentioned his guildies. Four of the guildies have over 10k achievement points and twelve more have over 9k achievement points. He probably didn't do most of this alone, which would cut down on the time needed if they're coordinating well. I make the assumption that they can coordinate well because the guild has all the recordable server firsts for boss kills.
Maybe it's one guy with multiple accounts.
Doubtful. To successfully get some of these achievements, you'd very likely need 10-20 guild members to complete high level raids. Even though there are only four other top ones, they are likely his standard dungeon buddies (party of 5 for those.) I can guarantee you he's done groups with people of up to 25 to get every achievement, so his guild is likely filled with many people who aren't controlled by him.
People like that aren't really any different from the people who hoard cat pee or newspapers in their houses. It's a nonproductive obsession that just happens to accumulate virtual cat pee and newspapers instead.
To hearken back to one of our lectures at PAX (which you will be able to see again at PAX East this year), the main point of "Losing Should Be Fun" was that if at any moment in a game you are not enjoying yourself in some manner, either the game is bad, or the game wasn't designed for you to play. If you're grinding through a game you hate, to the point that you're faking it by playing with a stooge to give eachother the achievements you need, you have to ask yourself what the hell it is that you're really doing, and why. This isn't even seeking challenge: it's seeking the achievement itself and nothing else, via the shortest and most mindless path possible.
I've S ranked just about everything in every US Advance Wars game there is. I do this because I have not 100% solved the winning strategy of the game, and I know that there is still room for improvement. I'm seeking mastery, and enjoying my failure as proof that I still have more to learn. Now, imagine if, instead of striving to achieve this perfect skill mastery, I was playing 2-player maps against myself, lining up tanks to be destroyed over and over again by antitanks to raise my scores up to an S. In that case, I've already achieved mastery, and am doing nothing more than incrementing an arbitrary number for no enjoyment and to no end.
People like that aren't really any different from the people who hoard cat pee or newspapers in their houses. It's a nonproductive obsession that just happens to accumulate virtual cat pee and newspapers instead.
To hearken back to one of our lectures at PAX (which you will be able to see again at PAX East this year), the main point of "Losing Should Be Fun" was that if at any moment in a game you are not enjoying yourself in some manner, either the game is bad, or the game wasn't designed for you to play. If you're grinding through a game you hate, to the point that you're faking it by playing with a stooge to give eachother the achievements you need, you have to ask yourself what the hell it is that you're really doing, and why. This isn't even seeking challenge: it's seeking the achievement itself and nothing else, via the shortest and most mindless path possible.
However, there is a game in trying to game a system. Sorta like those people who try and attempt to get 200 dollars in groceries for 5 bucks and such using coupons and tricks.... They are obsessive crazy people but they are probably getting some enjoyment figuring out ways to save another penny. She might not always like the game she's playing but she seems to like to discuss with fellow players ways to get more points and finding the best way to get more points. If she's not complusively doing it, more power to her.. (however she does mention it's like a drug... but so is Dragon Age ;-p)
Once you've figured out how to game the system, there's no more game, unless you enjoy the repetitive and tedious task of enacting the gaming.
In this case though they are attempting to get the max amount of of points the quickest way on different games so it does at least change from game to game. I'm not saying this is my cup of tea but it could be someone's :-p
People can be manipulated. There is no question about this. You can see it in history, as use of propaganda has lead people to violence. You can see it in present day, where companies use advertising to coerce children into wanting toys. Restaurants and movie theaters even use odors to get people to buy unhealthy food. Psychology exists, and it works. There is no room for debate here.
On top of that, there is some consensus that improper use of these psychological tools is wrong. We banned subliminal advertising, even though it doesn't work, because people believed it was coercive. A contract can be nullified if a person was found to be coerced into signing it. We ban advertising for tobacco, and have limits on advertising for alcohol and to children. We know that these psychological tools are extremely powerful, and are easily used for very bad and dangerous purposes. Therefore, we put strong limits on use of these tools.
Now, it has become very apparent that the power of these psychological tools are amplified greatly in the context of software, and software creators are very aware of it. Take this article about using games mechanics to impassion users, as an example. World of Warcraft, Farmville, XBox, Pokemon, Gaia, etc. All of these and more are using these same Skinner Box psychological techniques to coerce users into following certain behaviors.
As you can see, this technique has caused a great deal of harm to some users. Kids in China have died from becoming hooked on games. This girl in the story has spent a lot of money and time on games she does not enjoy playing. Various MMOs have ruined at least a few people's lives. Obviously, these extreme cases are the minority, but it's a lot like smoking in that way. Not everyone dies from smoking. Some people live to be really old cranky smoky geezers, and some cough up a lung.
My point is that creators of software bear some ethical responsibility for the effects their software has on the user's behavior. You know the famous old Milgram experiment. It's trivially easy to coerce someone into delivering deadly electric shocks to another human being. You've heard about the fake phone calls to McDonald's where people were told to, and did, horrible things. Charles Manson is in jail, even though he just got other people to do the killing for them.
Software and game developers have an ethical responsibility not to use these behavior manipulating tools in a harmful way. The direction we are going in, people are using them more and more and more, without even thinking there might be something morally wrong about it. What could possibly be wrong about giving someone some points? Well, if you create a machine that uses psychological "weaponry" that coerces someone into emptying their wallet and sitting on the couch all day and night, there might be some sort of ethical questions you need to ask yourself.
And if you are the person who has become a victim of this influence, you need to seriously consider trying to break out of their grasp.
I'm not saying this is my cup of tea but it could be someone's
But read the article. A lot of these people don't appear to actually enjoy the act, only the result. They appear to be frustrated at what they are doing and yet continue to do it regardless. The kids in TF2 definitely do not enjoy logging into broken servers to grind out the achievements: they enjoy the boons they get from said achievements. They log into these servers and grind because they want to skip past the non-fun part.
The kids in TF2 definitely do not enjoy logging into broken servers to grind out the achievements:
Are you referring to the class upgrades? (because it doesn't work that way anymore) or are you referring to any achievements even without "actual" gameplay rewards?
Comments
I also hate that some of the people here, as most people do, assume that the guy has no friends, doesn't go outside, etc. You don't know that. I will make that judgment once I meet the guy. Just as a personal anecdote, when I was in college there was a guy that I would always run into at the gym. This guy seemed to know everybody who came into the gym, myself included. The same thing would happen when I'd run into him at the bars or house parties or whatever, he knew everybody and was a fun guy to be around. Then one day we're talking and we get on the subject of video games. It didn't really surprise me that he was into games, since we mostly talked about popular FPSes and the like. But later on he invites me over to play some games with him, and I'm all down for it. One look at his game shelf and I was absolutely floored. The guy is a HUGE RPG fanatic. We just start talking about RPGs and he's going on about all the games that we've both played, how he's done shit in some of those games that I would never attempt in my life, and he's talking about RPGs that I've never even heard of. I was utterly shocked to find out that this guy, who is extremely popular and is a hardcore jock, is also a hardcore video gamer.
Needless to say, that was a big lesson for me about never assuming anything about anyone until you've actually investigated.
Also, it doesn't say how long it took him. Maybe he's been playing since the game came out in 2004. If he has, then he's definitely had the time to go outside.
My hat's off to the guy. I currently only have 573/986 achievements, and I probably barely get past 600 because I don't do everything there is to do in WoW.
I also like/agree with theknoxinator.
I want to point out that many of those end-game guilds are sponsored and get paid to do this shit. So if you get paid to be awesome in WoW, more power to you. Very unlikely. (Edit: Also what Axel said below)
http://kotaku.com/5422154/achievement-chore-she-plays-for-gamerscore-whether-its-fun-or-not
To hearken back to one of our lectures at PAX (which you will be able to see again at PAX East this year), the main point of "Losing Should Be Fun" was that if at any moment in a game you are not enjoying yourself in some manner, either the game is bad, or the game wasn't designed for you to play. If you're grinding through a game you hate, to the point that you're faking it by playing with a stooge to give eachother the achievements you need, you have to ask yourself what the hell it is that you're really doing, and why. This isn't even seeking challenge: it's seeking the achievement itself and nothing else, via the shortest and most mindless path possible.
I've S ranked just about everything in every US Advance Wars game there is. I do this because I have not 100% solved the winning strategy of the game, and I know that there is still room for improvement. I'm seeking mastery, and enjoying my failure as proof that I still have more to learn. Now, imagine if, instead of striving to achieve this perfect skill mastery, I was playing 2-player maps against myself, lining up tanks to be destroyed over and over again by antitanks to raise my scores up to an S. In that case, I've already achieved mastery, and am doing nothing more than incrementing an arbitrary number for no enjoyment and to no end.
On top of that, there is some consensus that improper use of these psychological tools is wrong. We banned subliminal advertising, even though it doesn't work, because people believed it was coercive. A contract can be nullified if a person was found to be coerced into signing it. We ban advertising for tobacco, and have limits on advertising for alcohol and to children. We know that these psychological tools are extremely powerful, and are easily used for very bad and dangerous purposes. Therefore, we put strong limits on use of these tools.
Now, it has become very apparent that the power of these psychological tools are amplified greatly in the context of software, and software creators are very aware of it. Take this article about using games mechanics to impassion users, as an example. World of Warcraft, Farmville, XBox, Pokemon, Gaia, etc. All of these and more are using these same Skinner Box psychological techniques to coerce users into following certain behaviors.
As you can see, this technique has caused a great deal of harm to some users. Kids in China have died from becoming hooked on games. This girl in the story has spent a lot of money and time on games she does not enjoy playing. Various MMOs have ruined at least a few people's lives. Obviously, these extreme cases are the minority, but it's a lot like smoking in that way. Not everyone dies from smoking. Some people live to be really old cranky smoky geezers, and some cough up a lung.
My point is that creators of software bear some ethical responsibility for the effects their software has on the user's behavior. You know the famous old Milgram experiment. It's trivially easy to coerce someone into delivering deadly electric shocks to another human being. You've heard about the fake phone calls to McDonald's where people were told to, and did, horrible things. Charles Manson is in jail, even though he just got other people to do the killing for them.
Software and game developers have an ethical responsibility not to use these behavior manipulating tools in a harmful way. The direction we are going in, people are using them more and more and more, without even thinking there might be something morally wrong about it. What could possibly be wrong about giving someone some points? Well, if you create a machine that uses psychological "weaponry" that coerces someone into emptying their wallet and sitting on the couch all day and night, there might be some sort of ethical questions you need to ask yourself.
And if you are the person who has become a victim of this influence, you need to seriously consider trying to break out of their grasp.