I want to know if Rym really knows the depths of Utena to the extent that he claims to. The discussion in this thread so far has been disappointingly shallow.
@Sail My theory is that, especially in Utena, what people say and the truth is not the same thing. For example, Akio says that Utena failed to bring revolution to the world. However, because Anthy left Akio to become her own person we know that that's not true. A non-anime example that I can think of is Micheal Corleone in The Godfather, the line "That's my family, Kay. It's not me" is a direct contradiction to the rest of the film.
I havn't given much thought to Utena's failure to be a prince, but I would say that RGU goes to great lengths to cast combine those roles. Anthy is Witch/Damsel, Akio is Witch/Prince and Utena is Prince/Princess. Therefore, Utena failed to become a Prince, but simultaneously became a Prince.
I get that, but what does it mean on a metaphorical level?
[Edit] I don't expect you to come up with an answer, rather I'm just stating the question I was originally getting at. What is this show saying about "princes" vs non-"princes"? What does it mean to be a "prince"?
I'll try my best to answer.I think that the whole prince thing is more of a commentary on modern storytelling. It attempts to break cliches by complicating the archetypes. There is no prince, only people doing heroic things, and there is no witch, only people doing evil things.
Edit: Un-white-ified text. Sorry, I'm used to people being hypersensitive about spoilers.
The show doesn't ever tell us if this is the only definition of "prince," but we know that the kind of prince Utena wanted to become was to what Dios used to be. If she were to become that kind of prince, that essentially means she would become an eternal and empty martyr, always trying to save people not because she really cares about them, but because that is what princes are supposed to do. What sets Utena apart from this in the end is her desire to save Anthy because she cares about her as a person, not because by saving her, she automatically gets to become "noble" in some way. Rescuing someone is not a free ticket to being a shining example of humanity; that doesn't mean anything unless you do it for your own reasons that actually matter and actually are noble. Akio rescued Utena from her coffin as a child; is he a good person because of that? No, he's still an asshole because he did it for cold and calculated reasons that had to do with achieving his own selfish goals, even though his actions had a positive outcome.
The way the duelling game is constructed reflects this Dios-like prince concept: the game is a lifeless, mechanical system where people fight for someone they don't even know and really don't even care to know, all for the sake of their own internal bullshit and self-centred senses of how the world should work. Utena was no different from any other duellist until she honestly started giving a shit about what Anthy really wanted and really thought, rather than her idealized picture of an innocent, trapped maiden who only wanted friends. She had to accept that yes, there really are some unsavoury things about her friend, and that despite all the flaws and betrayal she finds beneath the surface, Anthy is still a human being, still worth caring about, and still worth saving. If Utena did become a prince in the end, then she's a very different type of prince than any other seen or described in the series.
As for what happens to Anthy after, I always interpreted that as her accepting that it was her turn to do something for Utena as thanks for showing her a way out of her coffin. You definitely get the implication that Utena is still out there somewhere, and that Anthy will find her someday through enduring travel and trials - again, her own, not martyring herself over someone else's for no good reason.
People, this is a spoilerific thread. I mean, the title of the thread is "Utena's Ending" White text is unnecessary. Seriously, if you get spoiled by clicking on a thread like this, it's your own fault. Also, white text makes it impossible to read this on the iPhone.
Anyway, I just want to comment on the topic of Anthy. Granted, I haven't seen the show in awhile, so I don't remember it exactly. So if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm going to rewatch it soon anyway. I only watched the whole thing once in my life, and it needs a rewatching.
What I do remember is the scene in the final episodes where Anthy is a sword-cushion. Remember, the number one spoiler in the show, which I'm surprised nobody has really mentioned a lot, is that Akio's planetarium is a magical projector. Everything in the show that's fucked up, including upside down castles, magic elevators, cars, school desks that move on their own, swords coming out of people's chests, octopi in the closet, transforming clothing, etc. are all illusions which Akio is intentionally creating.
Once I saw those final episodes, I figured one of two things. One possibility is that Anthy was cooperating with, or at least submitting to, Akio's will the entire show. And then at the end, thanks to Utena, who (ahem) breaks her shell, she is able to leave. The other possibility is that Anthy was trapped and being stabbed the entire show, and the Anthy at the end is the only real Anthy. All the other Anthys you see earlier in the show are either a projection, or Akio using the projector to disguise himself. Thus, Utena literally does sort of save her, in princely fashion.
There are some things that were obviously being projected, such as Chu Chu doing weird shit and the dueling arena. But when you really start to think about all the things that could possibly have been projected by Akio, the possibilities of what actually happened get fucked up very quickly. If you rewatch the show a second or third time, keeping the projector in mind, even the first episode will have you saying "OH FUCK" about 100 times. Everything from shadow girls with aliens to curry will fuck with your mind.
Un-whited my text. I like your interpretation, Eryn.
And you've got a good point, Scott. We have absolutely no idea the extent of what was a projection by Akio and what was not. Given Utena's disappeared and was subsequently forgotten by the students, could aspects of her character have been projections as well?
Oh, I've always thought that the roles where switched at the end, Utena began doubting herself, and subsequently became a princess, symbolized by her rose bride dress, but, her final struggle as a prince inspired Anthy to save Utena from her entrapment, just like Dios inspired Utena to become a prince, and Akio save her from her coffin. It fits with one of the show's themes, which is how events repeat themselves.
Even considering that Akio has the ability to project illusions, there does still seem to be a mystical element to the world presented (this is taking out the completely allegorical view of the show for now). How else would you explain the soul swords? There is one strong piece of evidence keeping them out of the projection, and that is the fact that Akio's master plan seems to be to test Utena's soul sword to such lengths that he can craft it into a prince's sword, which he will then use to bust through the Rose Gate and regain the Power of Dios. Even if you take the position that they aren't literally swords, there's still some form of raw power there. If soul swords were not real, he would have no reason to make a plan like that.
Speaking of the Rose Gate, that itself I have leaned toward viewing as something separate from Akio's constructed, illusory world. It doesn't necessarily have to be magic; in fact, it's more likely something that represents Anthy, and Akio just doesn't realize it. It still stands, though, that it seems to be something that exists apart from Akio's illusions. In particular, the way Akio leaping out of the arena/tower and onto the platform is shot and presented strongly implies through visuals alone that he is no longer in his own realm. The platform stretches out beyond the boundary of the tower, and not only that, it is completely detached from the structure. As Akio approaches the Gate, he hears the swords stir, and though he keeps his composure (for the moment, anyway), you can tell that he knows this is serious business. He needs Anthy to protect him from the swords (which are out of his control), and he thinks he needs Utena's sword to break through the door that he assumes holds his lost power (also currently out of his control). There are arguments against this position, which is why I don't 100% say "Yes, this is what I think the nature of the Gate is", but that is that position that stands out most to me.
I like how Saionji says flat out in the first episode that the castle is a mirage, yet you forget about that and ignore that idea until they tell you it again at the end of the series.
Speaking of Chu Chu, do you know what's fun/interesting? Watching Chu Chu with the following interpretation in mind: Chu Chu represents what the real Anthy is feeling at core. I don't mean literally, because I doubt Anthy is interested in poking pillbugs with sticks or wresting with frogs (although, who knows; she does love animals). Just Chu Chu's general mood and state of mind can by interpreted to reflect Anthy's emotions at bottom. Chu Chu never goes to Akio's tower when Anthy visits him. Chu Chu sees something in Utena right off the bat when they meet. Chu Chu has times when he's very disinterested in the current conversation and seems like he'd rather be doing something else. Chu Chu gets in front of the camera when Akio tries to put his hand on Utena's shoulder during that group shot they take (he even does this right as Anthy happens to say "Stop it"). Even the stupid farting in the sleeping bag joke could be interpreted as Anthy's desire to suppress certain words and emotions.
I think this interpretation works on both a symbolic and literal level. Not only is he there as a clue into Anthy's subconscious for the viewer's sake, but he is also literally a witch's familiar. Conceivably, if Anthy does have any kind of ability as a witch, she could either have created him or influenced him to join her and share a state of mind with her. He does seem too suspiciously intelligent and bizarre to be a natural kind of animal. That he leaves with Anthy at the end suggests that he is not merely a projection, either.
They're just fucking with you. It's an anime, it's not fucking Myst.
Well, he's timing the length of the talking that comes immediately before him, which has to do with the way voice acting is timed in the studio. I feel like it's just there to give the sense that all these characters are just cogs in a machine that is inevitably heading to one, pre-determined outcome.
I've heard some people suggest that Miki might be noticing that something is wrong with time in their world, too, which would be relevant, considering the themes of staying in the past for eternity. I don't know how much I buy that theory personally, but I thought it was an interesting idea.
Utena was no different from any other duellist until she honestly started giving a shit about what Anthy really wanted and really thought, rather than her idealized picture of an innocent, trapped maiden who only wanted friends. She had to accept that yes, there really are some unsavoury things about her friend, and that despite all the flaws and betrayal she finds beneath the surface, Anthy is still a human being, still worth caring about, and still worth saving. If Utena did become a prince in the end, then she's a very different type of prince than any other seen or described in the series.
While I agree with most of what you say, I disagree that Utena was no different from any other duelist at first. It was emphasized heavily from the start that she was different from the rest, and one reason for that was that she did show a level of care for Anthy that none of the others did. It's very true that she hardly understood Anthy, and even projected onto her in the beginning of the series. What she admitted to her during their conversation on the tower's roof was true. But at points in the series, namely at the end of most arcs, Utena would learn something about Anthy that didn't fit her ideal image, something that she didn't like. The others reacted to these characteristics of Anthy with disgust, disillusionment, contempt, resentment, condescension, etc. This was very different from Utena, who eventually accepted all of her flaws and loved her as a person regardless. Only once did she almost fall to the level of the other duelists, after she'd finally found out the truth about Anthy and Akio, but even that was overcome after that talk about poisoned cookies.
In short, I think that Utena's caring for Anthy was not as pure as she thought in the beginning, and that growing to truly love her, all of her, was a gradual process. But I think that the way she felt and acted toward Anthy was set apart from the other duelists from the beginning. They've had a connection since childhood, after all. Young Utena completely disregarded her own sorrow and despair upon seeing the suffering of Anthy, immediately caring for her and committing herself to someday saving her. Those feelings were buried, but they were with her all along.
I would like to officially register my vote for an Utena Final Thoughts episode of Geek Nights! As soon as possible, please, thankyouverymuch.
I just finished watching the series for the first time. How many more times do I have to watch it before the color of the spinning roses makes sense? I was especially confused by the spinning blue rose when Akio's fiance's mom showed up. Come to think of it, I'm sure there was something important about her showing up, but I have no idea what.
Also: I'm haunted by the end of episode 29, when nurses are discussing a terminally ill patient who insisted on leaving the hospital because he wanted to give someone the power to grant miracles. It seems really important and I never figured out how it all tied in.
I would like to officially register my vote for an Utena Final Thoughts episode of Geek Nights! As soon as possible, please, thankyouverymuch.
I just finished watching the series for the first time. How many more times do I have to watch it before the color of the spinning roses makes sense? I was especially confused by the spinning blue rose when Akio's fiance's mom showed up. Come to think of it, I'm sure there was something important about her showing up, but I have no idea what.
Also: I'm haunted by the end of episode 29, when nurses are discussing a terminally ill patient who insisted on leaving the hospital because he wanted to give someone the power to grant miracles. It seems really important and I never figured out how it all tied in.
Help me Obi-wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.
I have seen Utena two or three times now (I'm not sure but I think I started third time, but let it hanging at some point) and if you'd ask me how all the things in the series connect, what the ending actually means and what was all that stuff, I couldn't answer. But after watching the series multiple times, I have realized that I don't need to "get" everything, or come to same conclusions as everyone else. For me one of the great points of Utena is that it can be watched with different focuses and I really got my kicks out of focusing on character development/ character exploration side of the story. Also I just realized that I pretty much resaid what I had already written earlier on this thread. Oh, well my opinions are important enough to read twice, aren't they?
I have seen Utena two or three times now (I'm not sure but I think I started third time, but let it hanging at some point) and if you'd ask me how all the things in the series connect, what the ending actually means and what was all that stuff, I couldn't answer. But after watching the series multiple times, I have realized that I don't need to "get" everything, or come to same conclusions as everyone else. For me one of the great points of Utena is that it can be watched with different focuses and I really got my kicks out of focusing on character development/ character exploration side of the story. Also I just realized that I pretty much resaid what I had already written earlier on this thread. Oh, well my opinions are important enough to read twice, aren't they?
I'm okay with the ending, actually. Utena brought revolution to the world of Ohtori. The scene in the Kendo room showed the duelists interacting in a very different way than they had before. Akio even seemed changed somehow (despite his protestations to the contrary), perhaps in part because he could no longer distract everyone with the duels, and they might compete for actual real-world accomplishments now. Sitting behind his desk, he looked like someone who actually had a job to do. And of course, Utena had brought revolution to Anthy. I was genuinely choked up seeing her in the world outside of Ohtori at the end. She had not died before being born.
And something just hit me: Akio seemed to think that if one had brought revolution to the world, it would be all big and flashy and obvious and physical. But the revolution Utena brought was more of a spiritual, emotional, essential shift. Gender analysis much? Especially paired with the whole bit about how you have to be a boy to be a prince, I'm sure there's stuff here I'm not getting yet but will enjoy continuing to dig into it.
About Scott's comment earlier re watching The Sixth Sense again . . . I have a feeling that for me, watching Utena again will be a little like re-watching Fight Club, in that I may want to focus on specific character's paths more than the question of what is objectively "real" (much like your comment about character development). I'm not sure we can know what's objectively "real" in Utena, and I don't think that matters. The second time I watched Fight Club, it was all about the relationship between Tyler and the Narrator. But then the third time, I was caught up in seeing everything from Marla's point of view. (Fight Club being a movie where I think the objectively "real" is in fact knowable and relevant.)
I have a feeling that in the long run Nanami will be more interesting than she was the first time. After all, Anthy named both a hen and a cow after her. I found this article amusing and somewhat reinforcing of some of the thoughts I'd had about Nanami on first viewing.
I'm going to take a break before watching Utena again. Too many other series are queued up for my attention. But has anybody watched the new release from RightStuf? They've only released the Student Council saga so far, and I'm vaguely hoping that once all three box sets are released, they'll do a proper full-series box set (really people, a 39-episode series and it has to be three separate box sets for more than $100 all together?).
I assumed that anyone watching the duels was inside the planetarium also. But since they are aware of what the planetarium is, they don't have to enter to through the bullshit entrance that all the naive people do.But Juri didn't seem to know who end of the world was...hmmm...rewatch time again! lol
Wasn't Touga,Ruka, Akio, and Juri the only ones that watched the duels? I always thought it meant that only those who were aware of the world's messed up rules could be there. Those characters definitely knew more than others, so they could stand in the shadows and watch others 'act out' their (society) roles on the stage/arena.
I think Juri would have quit if she was aware of the rules; she was the one most convinced about the castle in the sky. I'm not sure first-arc Touga would have put up with that either.
Maybe I mistakenly remembered her watching the duels. However, Juri did know a little bit more than others. At least when it came to Touga's plans. She didn't want to believe in the castle. She wanted a reason to prove it was all fake.
First arc Touga seemed like he knew what was going on. And he put up with the stupid rules because they benefited him.
What confuses me is that Saionji knows what's up with the castle the entire time -- which makes no sense with his character. "It's a trick of the light" he says, before spending the rest of the series trying to reach it.
Comments
Zettai unmei mokushiroku.
I havn't given much thought to Utena's failure to be a prince, but I would say that RGU goes to great lengths to cast combine those roles. Anthy is Witch/Damsel, Akio is Witch/Prince and Utena is Prince/Princess. Therefore, Utena failed to become a Prince, but simultaneously became a Prince.
[Edit] I don't expect you to come up with an answer, rather I'm just stating the question I was originally getting at. What is this show saying about "princes" vs non-"princes"? What does it mean to be a "prince"?
The show doesn't ever tell us if this is the only definition of "prince," but we know that the kind of prince Utena wanted to become was to what Dios used to be. If she were to become that kind of prince, that essentially means she would become an eternal and empty martyr, always trying to save people not because she really cares about them, but because that is what princes are supposed to do. What sets Utena apart from this in the end is her desire to save Anthy because she cares about her as a person, not because by saving her, she automatically gets to become "noble" in some way. Rescuing someone is not a free ticket to being a shining example of humanity; that doesn't mean anything unless you do it for your own reasons that actually matter and actually are noble. Akio rescued Utena from her coffin as a child; is he a good person because of that? No, he's still an asshole because he did it for cold and calculated reasons that had to do with achieving his own selfish goals, even though his actions had a positive outcome.
The way the duelling game is constructed reflects this Dios-like prince concept: the game is a lifeless, mechanical system where people fight for someone they don't even know and really don't even care to know, all for the sake of their own internal bullshit and self-centred senses of how the world should work. Utena was no different from any other duellist until she honestly started giving a shit about what Anthy really wanted and really thought, rather than her idealized picture of an innocent, trapped maiden who only wanted friends. She had to accept that yes, there really are some unsavoury things about her friend, and that despite all the flaws and betrayal she finds beneath the surface, Anthy is still a human being, still worth caring about, and still worth saving. If Utena did become a prince in the end, then she's a very different type of prince than any other seen or described in the series.
As for what happens to Anthy after, I always interpreted that as her accepting that it was her turn to do something for Utena as thanks for showing her a way out of her coffin. You definitely get the implication that Utena is still out there somewhere, and that Anthy will find her someday through enduring travel and trials - again, her own, not martyring herself over someone else's for no good reason.
Never mind that there is official artwork that makes me very optimistic on the "Utena and Anthy find each other in the outside world" front: http://ohtori.nu/galerie/v/series/artwork/uandatogether/UandA_Together_37.png.html
Anyway, I just want to comment on the topic of Anthy. Granted, I haven't seen the show in awhile, so I don't remember it exactly. So if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm going to rewatch it soon anyway. I only watched the whole thing once in my life, and it needs a rewatching.
What I do remember is the scene in the final episodes where Anthy is a sword-cushion. Remember, the number one spoiler in the show, which I'm surprised nobody has really mentioned a lot, is that Akio's planetarium is a magical projector. Everything in the show that's fucked up, including upside down castles, magic elevators, cars, school desks that move on their own, swords coming out of people's chests, octopi in the closet, transforming clothing, etc. are all illusions which Akio is intentionally creating.
Once I saw those final episodes, I figured one of two things. One possibility is that Anthy was cooperating with, or at least submitting to, Akio's will the entire show. And then at the end, thanks to Utena, who (ahem) breaks her shell, she is able to leave. The other possibility is that Anthy was trapped and being stabbed the entire show, and the Anthy at the end is the only real Anthy. All the other Anthys you see earlier in the show are either a projection, or Akio using the projector to disguise himself. Thus, Utena literally does sort of save her, in princely fashion.
There are some things that were obviously being projected, such as Chu Chu doing weird shit and the dueling arena. But when you really start to think about all the things that could possibly have been projected by Akio, the possibilities of what actually happened get fucked up very quickly. If you rewatch the show a second or third time, keeping the projector in mind, even the first episode will have you saying "OH FUCK" about 100 times. Everything from shadow girls with aliens to curry will fuck with your mind.
And you've got a good point, Scott. We have absolutely no idea the extent of what was a projection by Akio and what was not. Given Utena's disappeared and was subsequently forgotten by the students, could aspects of her character have been projections as well?
Speaking of the Rose Gate, that itself I have leaned toward viewing as something separate from Akio's constructed, illusory world. It doesn't necessarily have to be magic; in fact, it's more likely something that represents Anthy, and Akio just doesn't realize it. It still stands, though, that it seems to be something that exists apart from Akio's illusions. In particular, the way Akio leaping out of the arena/tower and onto the platform is shot and presented strongly implies through visuals alone that he is no longer in his own realm. The platform stretches out beyond the boundary of the tower, and not only that, it is completely detached from the structure. As Akio approaches the Gate, he hears the swords stir, and though he keeps his composure (for the moment, anyway), you can tell that he knows this is serious business. He needs Anthy to protect him from the swords (which are out of his control), and he thinks he needs Utena's sword to break through the door that he assumes holds his lost power (also currently out of his control). There are arguments against this position, which is why I don't 100% say "Yes, this is what I think the nature of the Gate is", but that is that position that stands out most to me.
I think this interpretation works on both a symbolic and literal level. Not only is he there as a clue into Anthy's subconscious for the viewer's sake, but he is also literally a witch's familiar. Conceivably, if Anthy does have any kind of ability as a witch, she could either have created him or influenced him to join her and share a state of mind with her. He does seem too suspiciously intelligent and bizarre to be a natural kind of animal. That he leaves with Anthy at the end suggests that he is not merely a projection, either.
They're just fucking with you. It's an anime, it's not fucking Myst.
Also, just watched episode with dissolving dress. People at Ohtori really like to play cards.
It's amazing how much they did with such a shit budget. Music still fucking rocks.
In short, I think that Utena's caring for Anthy was not as pure as she thought in the beginning, and that growing to truly love her, all of her, was a gradual process. But I think that the way she felt and acted toward Anthy was set apart from the other duelists from the beginning. They've had a connection since childhood, after all. Young Utena completely disregarded her own sorrow and despair upon seeing the suffering of Anthy, immediately caring for her and committing herself to someday saving her. Those feelings were buried, but they were with her all along.
I just finished watching the series for the first time. How many more times do I have to watch it before the color of the spinning roses makes sense? I was especially confused by the spinning blue rose when Akio's fiance's mom showed up. Come to think of it, I'm sure there was something important about her showing up, but I have no idea what.
Also: I'm haunted by the end of episode 29, when nurses are discussing a terminally ill patient who insisted on leaving the hospital because he wanted to give someone the power to grant miracles. It seems really important and I never figured out how it all tied in.
Help me Obi-wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.
Also I just realized that I pretty much resaid what I had already written earlier on this thread. Oh, well my opinions are important enough to read twice, aren't they?
And something just hit me: Akio seemed to think that if one had brought revolution to the world, it would be all big and flashy and obvious and physical. But the revolution Utena brought was more of a spiritual, emotional, essential shift. Gender analysis much? Especially paired with the whole bit about how you have to be a boy to be a prince, I'm sure there's stuff here I'm not getting yet but will enjoy continuing to dig into it.
About Scott's comment earlier re watching The Sixth Sense again . . . I have a feeling that for me, watching Utena again will be a little like re-watching Fight Club, in that I may want to focus on specific character's paths more than the question of what is objectively "real" (much like your comment about character development). I'm not sure we can know what's objectively "real" in Utena, and I don't think that matters. The second time I watched Fight Club, it was all about the relationship between Tyler and the Narrator. But then the third time, I was caught up in seeing everything from Marla's point of view. (Fight Club being a movie where I think the objectively "real" is in fact knowable and relevant.)
I have a feeling that in the long run Nanami will be more interesting than she was the first time. After all, Anthy named both a hen and a cow after her. I found this article amusing and somewhat reinforcing of some of the thoughts I'd had about Nanami on first viewing.
I'm going to take a break before watching Utena again. Too many other series are queued up for my attention. But has anybody watched the new release from RightStuf? They've only released the Student Council saga so far, and I'm vaguely hoping that once all three box sets are released, they'll do a proper full-series box set (really people, a 39-episode series and it has to be three separate box sets for more than $100 all together?).
If the dueling arena was Akio's planetarium the whole time, how the fuck was Touga watching the duels?
Wasn't Touga,Ruka, Akio, and Juri the only ones that watched the duels? I always thought it meant that only those who were aware of the world's messed up rules could be there. Those characters definitely knew more than others, so they could stand in the shadows and watch others 'act out' their (society) roles on the stage/arena.
First arc Touga seemed like he knew what was going on. And he put up with the stupid rules because they benefited him.