Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
This forum is in permanent archive mode. Our new active community can be found here.
All Landlords Are Scum
(With apologies to Mr. Johnson.)
What my mama told me has proved to be true.
So I lived in an apartment in Beacon for 2 years, leased by a brother and sister duo who struck me as very nice people. Whenever anyone would tell me not to trust landlords I would always bring up the two of them as an example to the contrary. Heck, one time when my landlady was waiting for the replacement for my broken stove to be delivered, she even did my dishes for me! Gosh! Anyway, I paid my rent on time every month, was a quiet, clean, and polite tenant, and in that sense hoped that they would return the favor by upholding their end of the bargain.
And then, right on schedule, they stab me in the back.
I've been out of the place almost two months by this point and still no word on the security deposit. Today, I decided to check and ask what the hold-up was. I politely asked for my 750$ back, and then the land lady started yelling at me, telling me I had caused her so much inconvenience because I only told her two and a half weeks before the end of my lease that I was moving out. (This was untrue. I told her that I would not be able to renew in early October because I believed I was probably moving into the house with Rym.) I got upset and told her that I knew she had found a tenant from my Craiglist ad, a nice young couple that plays D&D, because Alex had met them! She yelled at me for placing the ad without her permission! I had gotten her brother's permission and read him the post, word for word, and posted the ad for free just because I wanted to help them. I read her the part of the lease that dealt with the notice to vacate, and she did not listen and yelled at me some more, and then I lost my head and yelled back that she was wrong and being really mean, and then I said I would talk to a lawyer and hung up.
Then I called the brother. He had already gotten an earful from his pissy sister, but he was very nice and amiable as always, and I was likewise calm and collected. He said "Well, let's all be fair here. How about I give you half, and I take half? How's that?" I said that with all due respect, I believed I was entitled to the full deposit. I had upheld my lease to the letter, left the apartment in perfect condition, and found them a new tenant.
24. Display of Signs. During the last 30 days of this lease, Lessor or his agent shall have the privilege of displaying the usual "For Sale" or "For Rent" or "Vacancy" signs on the demised premises and of showing the property to prospective purchasers or tenants.
27. Holdover by Lessee. Should lessee remain in possession of the demised premises with the consent of the Lessor after the natural expiration of the lease, a new month-to-month tenancy shall be created between Lessor and Lessee which shall be subject to all the terms and conditions hereof but shall be terminated on 30 days written notice served by either Lessor or Lessee.
28. Notice of Intent to Vacate. [This paragraph applies only when Agreement is or has become a month-to-month Agreement.] Lessor shall advise Lessee of any changes in terms of tenancy with advance notice of at least 30 days. Changes may include notices of termination, rent adjustments, or other reasonable changes in the terms of this Agreement.
Also in the end section it says that I will have to pay for carpet steaming after I move out, which according to the brother is $129 dollars.
So basically, I told her two months ahead of time that I would not sign a new lease, when she bothered me right after the house fell through in early November and Scott had already moved out of the geekhaus that I might end up staying a few extra months in my apartment, with Rym as well, until we found a new place. This was a "maybe" and I didn't want to sign anything. The next week we found the place in Queens. I called Gary right away. This was 2.5 weeks before my end date, which was November 30. He was disappointed in me for not telling him sooner, but I read him the Craiglist ads and he was happy again. I was all moved out on the 29th.
Give me back my $620! I did more than what was required of me! I will take you to small claims court if I have to YOU BITCHES!
Sigh. Okay. Share your landlord hell stories.
What my mama told me has proved to be true.
So I lived in an apartment in Beacon for 2 years, leased by a brother and sister duo who struck me as very nice people. Whenever anyone would tell me not to trust landlords I would always bring up the two of them as an example to the contrary. Heck, one time when my landlady was waiting for the replacement for my broken stove to be delivered, she even did my dishes for me! Gosh! Anyway, I paid my rent on time every month, was a quiet, clean, and polite tenant, and in that sense hoped that they would return the favor by upholding their end of the bargain.
And then, right on schedule, they stab me in the back.
I've been out of the place almost two months by this point and still no word on the security deposit. Today, I decided to check and ask what the hold-up was. I politely asked for my 750$ back, and then the land lady started yelling at me, telling me I had caused her so much inconvenience because I only told her two and a half weeks before the end of my lease that I was moving out. (This was untrue. I told her that I would not be able to renew in early October because I believed I was probably moving into the house with Rym.) I got upset and told her that I knew she had found a tenant from my Craiglist ad, a nice young couple that plays D&D, because Alex had met them! She yelled at me for placing the ad without her permission! I had gotten her brother's permission and read him the post, word for word, and posted the ad for free just because I wanted to help them. I read her the part of the lease that dealt with the notice to vacate, and she did not listen and yelled at me some more, and then I lost my head and yelled back that she was wrong and being really mean, and then I said I would talk to a lawyer and hung up.
Then I called the brother. He had already gotten an earful from his pissy sister, but he was very nice and amiable as always, and I was likewise calm and collected. He said "Well, let's all be fair here. How about I give you half, and I take half? How's that?" I said that with all due respect, I believed I was entitled to the full deposit. I had upheld my lease to the letter, left the apartment in perfect condition, and found them a new tenant.
24. Display of Signs. During the last 30 days of this lease, Lessor or his agent shall have the privilege of displaying the usual "For Sale" or "For Rent" or "Vacancy" signs on the demised premises and of showing the property to prospective purchasers or tenants.
27. Holdover by Lessee. Should lessee remain in possession of the demised premises with the consent of the Lessor after the natural expiration of the lease, a new month-to-month tenancy shall be created between Lessor and Lessee which shall be subject to all the terms and conditions hereof but shall be terminated on 30 days written notice served by either Lessor or Lessee.
28. Notice of Intent to Vacate. [This paragraph applies only when Agreement is or has become a month-to-month Agreement.] Lessor shall advise Lessee of any changes in terms of tenancy with advance notice of at least 30 days. Changes may include notices of termination, rent adjustments, or other reasonable changes in the terms of this Agreement.
Also in the end section it says that I will have to pay for carpet steaming after I move out, which according to the brother is $129 dollars.
So basically, I told her two months ahead of time that I would not sign a new lease, when she bothered me right after the house fell through in early November and Scott had already moved out of the geekhaus that I might end up staying a few extra months in my apartment, with Rym as well, until we found a new place. This was a "maybe" and I didn't want to sign anything. The next week we found the place in Queens. I called Gary right away. This was 2.5 weeks before my end date, which was November 30. He was disappointed in me for not telling him sooner, but I read him the Craiglist ads and he was happy again. I was all moved out on the 29th.
Give me back my $620! I did more than what was required of me! I will take you to small claims court if I have to YOU BITCHES!
Sigh. Okay. Share your landlord hell stories.
Comments
I have no landlord hell stories. My current landlady is 95 years old and doesn't bother me at all. Actually, she's quite nice and cheery. Plus, she's pretty deaf, so I can make tons of noise and she won't notice.
Emily, did you actually provide them with written notice? And do you have a copy? Because it looks like the terms of your lease provide an explicit method of notice, and if you don't have proof of that notice, you might find yourself having a hard time in court. Make sure you have everything you need to absolutely prove you complied with the lease. If you didn't provide them with 30 days written notice, you technically didn't comply with the written lease, no matter what you may have told the lady or how happy the guy may have seemed.
However, you might be able to introduce evidence of a subsequent oral modification... I'd ask a real lawyer if I were you.
Pete, you still have to give notice that you're moving out even if the lease is expiring. Hell, I know that just from reading my lease. Leases usually have a provision for automatic renewal or month-to-month holdover. This one has holdover, like my last lease. If you don't renew, it automatically goes into month-to-month unless you give notice. That means it IS in the lease. The lease also provides a specific method of giving notice for termination. ALWAYS give your notice in writing, and always get them to sign a second copy that you will keep so you have evidence if you need it.
The last place I lived, I got all the necessary paperwork out of the way WAY in advance. I kept signed copies of everything, asked lots of questions, and had them do inspections while I was present so we could both sign off on any "damage" they might try to claim. I got my entire security deposit (less the minimal cleaning fee I mentioned above) back within two months. I got the notice of the amount sooner, but the actual administration of it took awhile. I haven't really had any problems with landlords, except when they are unavailable for help. I once lived in a place where the guy didn't answer calls and never showed up to fix anything or address complaints. As a rule now, I won't rent an apartment in a building that doesn't have an established rental office or the landlord living there.
The whole sentence is: This is an event triggered on two conditions (termination of the lease and consent of the lessor), and I am fairly certain that the "but shall be terminated..." part is referring to the month-to-month lease only, since it's all one continuous phrase. You have the object: "a new month-to-month tenancy," the action "shall be created," and two more modifiers: "which shall be" and "but shall be." The two modifiers refer to the month-to-month tenancy and NOT to the original lease.
At least, that's how I'm reading it, and that's what I'd argue.
What does your lease say about the duration of the lease itself? My lease includes a section about a duration lease (as opposed to month-to-month) that expressly ends unless one of three conditions are met. The default state is ending; there are conditional events which may modify this outcome.
Basically, I figure if I told them straight out before my real lease was up that I did not want to go month-to-month, how could it be month-to-month? It would not have switched over until December!
The document provides that termination requires written notice in the month-to-month section... The lease has two time frames. An original, discrete term that she agreed to be there for (and was, I imagine), and provisions for extension beyond that term (month-to-month if no new lease is signed). You are wrong about the conditions that trigger the month-to-month provision. It is not conditional on the termination* of the lease, but rather the expiration of the lease's first term. The lease contract is still active when the month-to-month provision is triggered, but now slightly different terms apply because you are in the second stage. The month-to-month provision is automatically triggered unless there is notice that the Lessee will be vacating, because the activation of the month-to-month provision is not conditional upon the Lessee affirming the intent to stay in any way. The Lessee simply has to not give notice that they intend to leave, and the month-to-month provision is triggered when the discrete term ends.
This is different than your lease if the default state of your lease is ending. The automatic month-to-month is pretty standard in leases. you're leasing from an old lady who is a private homeowner. She's probably not using the same provisions as someone leasing a whole building of apartments. Also, we'd really need to see the lease in its entirety to make a full assessment of what the lease says. If there really is no provision for terminating the lease in writing o with a required notice time, then you might be okay.
*Termination means one of the parties to the contract terminated the contract. It is not the same as the original lease term expiring.
Again, talk to a contracts lawyer if you want...but keep in mind that contractually, only going by the written documents, you might not have much to stand on.
I would consult a lawyer. Doesn't Rym get free legal consultation or some crazy bullshit like that?
The lease begins on X date and ends on Y date. According to #27 If the lessee is in possession of the premises after date Y then a new month-to-month tenancy shall begin. That month-to-month tenancy is subject to all the same conditions as the current lease except that it shall be terminated on 30 days notice by either party.
Also, number 29 says that "At the expiration of the lease term, Lessee shall quit and surrender the premises..."
By the words of this lease alone, barring any laws I am unawares of, it clearly states that if you are out of there by the time the lease expires, you don't even need to say whether you are staying or going. It's assumed you will leave on the expiration of the lease if you do not remain in possession of the premises after the expiration date, the month-to-month tenancy is not created, and it's terms do not apply. The terms requiring a 30-day notice are only present in the terms of the month-to-month tenancy. Only by staying beyond the natural term of the lease do the month-to-month terms activate, and the 30 days notice becomes required. No notice is required if you are not month-to-month, because the landlord already has notice. They know the expiration date of the lease the day they sign it.
I think the lease is crystal clear. If it is true that this is not correct, then I think we have a more serious issue in that landlords are able to give leases, the terms of which are not 100% true. If there are laws in place which result in a lease meaning something other than what is printed upon it, then the landlord should be obligated to make those terms known to the tenant.
For example, the lease at my new place does this. It has a huge paragraph that says I absolutely can not sublet, no way no how. Then there's one sentence that says
"A tenant has the right to sublet his/her apartment, even if subletting is prohibited in the lease, provided that the tenant complies with the provisions of Real Property Law Section 226-b."
You see, there is a law in place which makes it so a landlord can not prohibit subletting. However, the landlord was required to tell me about this law in the lease. Thus, by reading just the text of the lease itself, there is no lack of clarity in what is or is not prohibited. Even though there is a law which directly contradicts the lease, I am made aware of this law in said lease.
The lease from my previous place, the same one that Emily has, does not do this. I can't see how the tenant can be held responsible for lease terms which were not in the lease, or referred to on the lease.
And this will probably make Nuri's head explode, but if I were a judge, I would reward the tenant in this case with a lot more than their security deposit. Compared to the lease I got for my new place, I think it is clear that this form lease is not compliant with NY State law. I would award the tenant / punish the landlord however possible for every thing in the contract which was not compliant with the law. I would also make sure to get the same for all other tenants of the landlord under the same lease.
This is the lease used.
And yeah Pete, it looks like yours is extremely similar.
One day we came home and found our dishes had been washed and put to dry and out laundry had been done. My parents said thank you but asked her not to come into our apartment without us being there. She said fine.
Some time later, we came home and found her and her husband in the back yard. She was washing her husbands feet in a pot of water. IT WAS OUR POT. THAT WE HAD USED TO COOK.
Again, my parents told her not to come into our house without us being there. This time, though, my dad went out and bought a logitech camera for my moms pc (it connected via parallel) and, whenever we left the apartment, it took time lapsed pictures. Well, sure enough we found pictures of her in the apartment. When we brought them to her attention she made some excuse and apologized and said she wouldn't do it again.
After a few months we noticed our electricity bill was unusually high. We unplugged everything to try and find the culprit. But even with everything unplugged, the meter kept spinning. We tried to figure out what each breaker was for and we ended up with a couple breakers that we couldn't trace. Once we shut those off, the meter stopped.
LO AND BEHOLD no more than a few minutes later we had an angry little italian woman at our doorstep. They were stealing our electricity.
When we tried to take them to court, she pulled her connections in the police department and we started getting harassed by the cops. A tail light would mysteriously break and we'd get ticketed. Meters would run out faster than the ought to, etc etc etc. Finally, she had us evicted and gave us a months notice.
And that's when we moved to Rhode island. Though I think my parents finally got her in court.
Like I said, without reading the entire lease, and without knowing a heck of a lot more about contracts and landlord-tenant law, I can't tell you what would happen. I know that every lease I've ever been in with an apartment complex has required written notice of when you are going to move out, and they have always had a "X days notice" requirement, even if it is just notice that you won't be renewing, because they need you to tell them you'll be moving out and not going month-to-month.
Pete, I didn't say you didn't have a proper lease. I said you probably had a different one. As in, there may be differences between the provisions in a single-apartment landlord and a multiple-apartment landlord. It doesn't make it any less proper or valid. I'm not sure why you'd think I was saying that.
Scott, I don't particularly disagree with you that the landlady is being a crazy bitch. I mean, she clearly knew what was going on from Emily's story. But in Contracts cases, the courts don't generally award punitive damages. They're simply going to give Emily whatever money she is owed under the contract if they find in her favor. They don't punish people for breaking contracts; they simply try to resolve the situation in a fair way. It's bad for commerce to make people afraid to form contracts. If you want to know more about that, I'll be happy to tell you all about it in person.
I think I have found said laws for NY State here. Doesn't look like they are out of date or incomplete, and it reads very easily.
Last year I had a sleazy Italian slumlord when I lived in the 19th Ward, in Rochester. For those of you not familiar with the area, the rent averages $250/month. He was really sketchy, and never gave my deposit back when I left. At least it was only $200. Also, my housemates stole my DS and never cleaned the kitchen or bathroom. I started sleeping over at RIT to get away from the place.
One time a housemate of mine told another that I had eaten his pie (when really this housemate had eaten it), and he kicked my door down. Over a pie. I actually had stolen one bite, and it was disgusting. I would never have eaten the whole thing.
When I moved to Berkeley, I subletted from a washed-up hippie, which was surprisingly good. He used to be a chef in pakistan, so I would eat delicious curry almost every day. Also, the rent was super cheap for being a 5-minute walk from the UC Berkeley campus (and right on Telegraph Ave, no less).
My current studio on Park Ave is rented from a very nice, professional Chinese family, who have an actual rental office. They fix things when things break, and we get along. One of the radiators doesn't work properly, but the apartment's warm enough in winter, being on the third floor and all.
EDIT: They're professional, and happen to be Chinese. They aren't professionally Chinese, to my knowledge. Although I ran into my Apartment Manager at the Rochester Philharmonic once.
The thing is, most landlords don't write their own lease. They get one from elsewhere, and many of those will have standard "no subletting" clauses.
Item 24: With the brother's permission I posted on Craiglist "For Rent" in the month before my lease was up. They got new tenants.
Item 27: I did not remain in possession of the demised premises after the the natural expiration of the lease. The keys were handed on the last day and I never set foot in the apartment again. I officially surrendered the premises within the term of my year-long lease. Therefore, I do not believe that a month-to-month tenancy could have been created. I told them not to make it month-to-month 2.5 weeks before my lease was up, and I assume that the contract only becomes month-to-month when the lease actually ends. Had I stayed until December 1, and then told them I was moving, I would have had to write them a letter 30 days before I stopped paying for the apartment. No letter was required for the regular term of the year lease.
Item 28: Not only does this one only apply to month-to-month, but all it basically says is that if my landlord is kicking me out, changing the rent, or making changes, they have to tell me 30 days ahead of time. This obviously does not apply to regular lease because those terms are locked in for a year.
For instance, many leases say you can't put holes in the wall, but when you ask the landlord they are perfectly fine with you hanging pictures. Why is that even in the lease, then? Why not have it say you can hang pictures and things, but the wall must be in good condition when you move out? It drives me crazy that half the time I ask them something, the landlords contradict the lease by giving me permission to do something. They really should tailor the lease better.
EDIT: Em, I'm not taking their side. I'm giving you a realistic analysis based on what little I know of your lease. We already established that if there is no provision for notice to be given at all unless the lease goes into month to month, then you might be okay with the termination part. However, the less documentation you have about the performance of a contract, in general, the harder it is going to be to make your case. That doesn't mean it can't be done. Plus, if NY is strong on tenants' rights, then there are probably a whole bunch of things I don't know about that you could take advantage of if you know where to look. That's why I said ask a landlord-tenant lawyer.
That aside, I'll note that by law, they had to inform Emily where the security deposit was deposited, and pay her interest on it, which they certainly did not do. They likely failed to upload several other sections of the lease and/or NYS law as well. ^_~
But they DO have to tell you where it's deposited, no matter what. It might be written on the lease somewhere. If it's not, and she didn't tell you, you should have been wary from the start.
EDIT: Also, it probably goes without saying, but: I am not a lawyer. Hell, I'm not even in law school. You can take my opinion with a grain of salt. I'm just going with what seems reasonable, and the vague bits of law I remember overhearing while Nuri and Moe would study.
What I can tell you is that there's a very, very, very, very good reason we have lawyers. This shit is complicated.
1)Tried to indimidate my housemates - but mainly me, as I was the main male complainant, the rest were female, and he's an old-school yorkshire bloke, wouldn't even raise his voice to a women - as we were complaining about the building not being compliant with the law setting out acceptable living conditions.
2)Is STILL witholding my Deposit, and all my housemates deposits
3)After we initiated out complaints against him because of the living conditions, it was the middle of the worst winter that yorkshire had experienced for 15 years. The Heating broke - no hot water that wasn't from the kettle or warm from the (electric) shower. So, in temperatures ranging from -5 to -20, in a thin walled, uninsulated house, we had no heating. We lived in our thickest, warmest clothes, he refused to loan us any electric heaters from his store of them - not even gave an excuse, just flat out refused - and refused to have a repairman around unless we paid for it(contrary to the conditions of the lease, which said explicitly that he would pay for home repairs) and only had it fixed after we served him with papers from student legal services that said "Fix it, or get the ever-loving fuck sued out of you"
4)When I moved in, I took photos of everything. When I moved out, he tried to charge me 250 GBP for "Repairs to a hole in the wall." Said hole was less than an inch across, and was there when I moved in, it shows up in the photos. I sent him the photos when I moved in, so he had them too, and the photo he tried to use to say it wasn't there when I moved in was simply a crudely photoshopped version of MY OWN PHOTO. Luckily, he backed down on this, when I went to him with my laptop, and showed him the exif data from the original photo showing the hole, and the Exif data on his photoshopped version, and pointed out that they were an exact match, as well as pointing out the shitty clone-brush work - after which, he quickly backed down.
You see, this is an economic thing. Sometimes, it might be most efficient economically to breach the contract, pay the other guy to give him the benefit of what he would have gotten, and make a new contract with someone else. It's not in the best interest of encouraging commerce to order every contract to be performed. We simply try to promote fairness. If someone breaks a contract with you, but you get the same financial gain you would have if it had been performed, you are just as well off.
I'm sorry there isn't much more advice I can offer beyond that, Emily. I really hope this works out for you soon enough. Maybe from now on, putting every bit of important communication in some form of writing would be a good idea when dealing with a landlord.