There aren't any plans to lower prices for AB, however, there is a plan on the table to offer a reduced price "evening pass" for AB -- the idea being that many people attending PAX may be staying in hotels near the Hynes and may be willing to pay a reduced price to enter AB after they get back from PAX.
Nothing is set it stone yet though. We're still trying to see if there is some miraculous rescheduling that can be pulled off so the dates do not conflict.
I've never missed an AB, and just went to my first PAX yesterday. Love them both. Totally torn about next year.
Lou, I really like the idea of some sort of reduced price evening pass, or some other such innovation in registration. Given how scattered PAX attendees are going to be all over Boston, with of course many near the Hynes, and food better near the Hynes, I can imagine a bit of overflow from the more casual PAXer (ie, those who actually might go out and see the city a bit, which might seem strange to the hardcore but those folks are out there somewhere).
Also, there *might* be some people who wouldn't come to Boston just for either convention alone, but could be pushed over the line by knowing both cons are in town. Dunno if PAX would be motivated to participate, since they sell out anyway. But I wonder how many people who buy 1-day passes to PAX would stick around (or drive back in from the burbs) for another 1-day at AB.
But I wonder how many people who buy 1-day passes to PAX would stick around (or drive back in from the burbs) for another 1-day at AB.
The vast majority of people who buy 1-day passes to PAX do so only because the 3-day one sold out. There were a large number of people with Friday AND Sunday only badges, simply because that's the most they could get.
I wouldn't be surprised if PAX had 5,000 or so more badges to sell next year, if not more. (Personal opinion, not based on anything they've said).
"PAX East organizers have told Joystiq that the show's attendance at the Boston Convention and Exhibition Center was 69,500, making it the biggest PAX convention yet. Last year's inaugural PAX East show welcomed 52,290 revelers to the smaller Hynes Convention Center."
"PAX East organizers have told Joystiq that the show's attendance at the Boston Convention and Exhibition Center was 69,500, making it the biggest PAX convention yet. Last year's inaugural PAX East show welcomed 52,290 revelers to the smaller Hynes Convention Center."
Next PAX, I am calling them out on their bullshit. This false attendance reporting can not stand.
"PAX East organizers have told Joystiq that the show's attendance at the Boston Convention and Exhibition Center was 69,500, making it the biggest PAX convention yet. Last year's inaugural PAX East show welcomed 52,290 revelers to the smaller Hynes Convention Center."
That has to be a turnstile count or something.
I guess, from a sales and marketing perspective, that's valid. Salespeople just care about sacks of flesh that spend money, and if the same sack of flesh spends money 3 days in a row, that's the same as 3 sacks of flesh spending money on a single day each.
"PAX East organizers have told Joystiq that the show's attendance at the Boston Convention and Exhibition Center was 69,500, making it the biggest PAX convention yet. Last year's inaugural PAX East show welcomed 52,290 revelers to the smaller Hynes Convention Center."
That has to be a turnstile count or something.
I guess, from a sales and marketing perspective, that's valid. Salespeople just care about sacks of flesh that spend money, and if the same sack of flesh spends money 3 days in a row, that's the same as 3 sacks of flesh spending money on a single day each.
I have to disagree with that last point. Trade show exhibitors care about unique attendee/registrant counts, especially if they're more concerned with influencing future purchases (ie, Portal 2) than immediate (ie, an overpriced hot dog).
Next PAX, I am calling them out on their bullshit. This false attendance reporting can not stand.
Yea, this is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. Why they can't talk about badges sold is beyond me. It would come out to be about 30,000 unique badges I bet.. (not really sure how many single day badges were sold).
Though I feel like an asshole whenever I point it out. I mean 21,000 to 30,000 is still a crazy number.
Yea, this is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. Why they can't talk about badges sound is beyond me. It would come out to be about 30,000 unique badges I bet.. (not really sure how many single day badges were sold).
Though I feel like an asshole whenever I point it out. I mean 21,000 to 30,000 is still a crazy number.
I also have a prediction. They scheduled on top of AB probably thinking that AB is a rinky dink tiny convention of just 17k. They think that PAX is 3 or 4 times the size of AB. They don't realize that AB is probably 50+k if you count the same way you count PAX. If they even bothered to noticed that they are going up against AB, and even bothered to care, that they saw those small 17k figures and wrote it off without realizing any better.
I also have a prediction. They scheduled on top of AB probably thinking that AB is a rinky dink tiny convention of just 17k. They think that PAX is 3 or 4 times the size of AB. They don't realize that AB is probably 50+k if you count the same way you count PAX. If they even bothered to noticed that they are going up against AB, and even bothered to care, that they saw those small 17k figures and wrote it off.
If that was the mindset (which I doubt) that would be super bastardy and naive.
(Note, man I can't believe I typed sound instead of sold... what's up with that?)
I also have a prediction. They scheduled on top of AB probably thinking that AB is a rinky dink tiny convention of just 17k. They think that PAX is 3 or 4 times the size of AB. They don't realize that AB is probably 50+k if you count the same way you count PAX. If they even bothered to noticed that they are going up against AB, and even bothered to care, that they saw those small 17k figures and wrote it off without realizing any better.
When I first joined the Enforcer IRC channel, that thinking was pretty common.
Yeah, people who actually know do realize that AB and PAX are roughly the same size -- when comparing them I multiple AB's numbers by 3 or divide PAX's by 3 in order to get comparable numbers. Then again, the MCCA's website lists the attendance values pretty realistically -- looking at the numbers they have for 2012, they estimate AB at 17,000 and PAX at 24,000, which is probably right in the ballpark for both cons. If you divide the PAX 2011 turnstile count by 3, you get 23,167. For comparison (and for those of you who don't feel like doing the math yourself), multiplying 17,000 by 3 does give you 51,000. So while PAX may be slightly bigger, both cons are quite large.
It'll also be interesting to see if AB keeps up its growth. 17k was last year's number and AB has steadily grown by about 2-3k each year it's been in the Hynes. I'm actually seriously considering asking AB's PR staff to report its attendance as turnstile count -- or at least offer both numbers for a fair comparison.
BTW, on the PAX forums, Robert Khoo has said that he is going to try to work out some way for both cons to co-exist peacefully and that not conflicting with AB was on his radar. There may even be an AB badge booth at PAX for those who wish to attend both cons (and probably vice versa).
They scheduled on top of AB probably thinking that AB is a rinky dink tiny convention of just 17k. They think that PAX is 3 or 4 times the size of AB.
Really? You think that Robert Khoo - the man the everyone including you and Rym call a genius businessman - doesn't know what their attendance numbers actually mean? This is a guy who routinely puts on a con that costs 8 figures. Anime Boston is rinky-dink in comparison.
I think the scheduling is wholly intentional, because of two factors:
1. The demographics of the two cons do not necessarily overlap to the point of mutual detriment. AB probably skews younger and female, while PAXE probably skews older and male. I don't have actual demographic numbers, though; that would be interesting data to have. So, Khoo has probably made a calculated move.
2. Even though the demographics don't overlap, Anime Boston is still competition for PAXE, as the city itself only has so many resources (hotels, public transit, restaurants, etc). Since Khoo is running a business, he's familiar with competition, and has probably figured that PAXE will fare better from head-to-head competition than will AB (since the guy can drop 8 figures like that). That'll make PAXE look more valuable to the city of Boston and its various business resources. Hotels will see that more people are flocking to PAXE, so they'll give it preferential treatment and slowly edge out AB.
I think it's entirely possible that Khoo is looking to invest in the future of PAXE in Boston, by ousting the competition.
If that was the mindset (which I doubt) that would be super bastardy and naive.
Is it super bastardly and naieve to open up a Lowe's across the street from a mom-and-pop hardware store?
BTW, on the PAX forums, Robert Khoo has said that he is going to try to work out some way for both cons to co-exist peacefully and that not conflicting with AB was on his radar. There may even be an AB badge booth at PAX for those who wish to attend both cons (and probably vice versa).
OK, there's this too.
But still, I think he's trying to strongly assert the presence of PAX in Boston.
Interesting, though, that not conflicting is only "on his radar." That implies that that's not where he is right now.
I note that AB didn't make their dates public. It is entirely possible that PA chose the dates simply because they worked and the BCEC was free. They probably didn't care what was going on elsewhere in the city that weekend.
Is it super bastardly and naieve to open up a Lowe's across the street from a mom-and-pop hardware store?
That's kinda apples and oranges. I would argue that if PAX is being run for the reasons it is stated publicly to provide a place for geeks to feel at home and in a community with the secondary benefit of making a shit ton of money. Then running up against a non-profit convention (I assume Anime Boston is non-profit) with similar demos in the same city is sorta destroying or fracturing a community if you do it purposely. Sorta like how the VGxpo in Philly wanted to crush all the conventions around it and caused the failure of his event because he didn't build the community by alienating it (plus he was a douche-bag).
I note that AB didn't make their dates public. It is entirely possible that PA chose the dates simply because they worked and the BCEC was free. They probably didn't care what was going on elsewhere in the city that weekend.
Considering it's a drastic move to easter weekend, I'm pretty sure they ran into the problem that we are having which is the convention books the weekend you had your event the year before with someone else instead of well using the same freaking timeline when you sign a contract with them...
Really? You think that Robert Khoo - the man the everyone including you and Rym call a genius businessman - doesn't know what their attendance numbers actually mean?
You do realize that only a tiny, tiny minority of fan conventions use badges for their numbers, and that the industry standard worldwide is turnstile, right? No one we ever have worked with was aware that anime cons often use badge counts (and even many anime cons don't). Reed didn't know.
To most professionals in the convention business, they wouldn't even consider for a second that anyone used anything but turnstile as their count method.
Well, by saying it's "on his radar" (my words, not his), he means that he tries to avoid scheduling PAX at the same time as Anime Boston if at all possible. The other cons he tries to avoid scheduling conflicts with are SXSW and GDC.
Also, while AB is not an 8 figure con (where did that number come from, btw?), AB isn't exactly small potatoes either. Its budget is in the high 6 to low 7 figures, and part of the reason why our budget is smaller is that we charge our exhibitors significantly less than PAX does (granted, our exhibitors are also no where near as flushed with cash as PAX's -- the anime industry is no where near as well off as the game industry). Our registration prices also tend to be lower, which also makes our budget smaller. Finally, AB is run by a full-fledged non-profit (Reed is a for-profit corporation, no matter how much of the proceeds, if any, of PAX go to Child's Play), so there may be regulatory issues that keep our budget lower as we can't just pile on excess profits from year to year (not being an accountant/lawyer, I can't confirm this -- I'm just guessing). As stated earlier, when you look at the actual number of attendees, the numbers are quite similar.
Prime was always over a holiday weekend, and this served it well. This year's move away from that is a big departure. Moving TO a holiday weekend for East was a logical step, and I assume Prime will try to move back to the holiday weekend as soon as possible.
AB is run by a full-fledged non-profit (Reed is a for-profit corporation, no matter how much of the proceeds, if any, of PAX go to Child's Play), so there may be regulatory issues that keep our budget lower as we can't just pile on excess profits from year to year (not being an accountant/lawyer, I can't confirm this -- I'm just guessing).
Honestly? I think anime cons running as non-profits is a huge mistake that will destroy them in the long-run. When we eventually run our GeekNights con, you can bet it will be a fully for-profit venture.
AB is run by a full-fledged non-profit (Reed is a for-profit corporation, no matter how much of the proceeds, if any, of PAX go to Child's Play), so there may be regulatory issues that keep our budget lower as we can't just pile on excess profits from year to year (not being an accountant/lawyer, I can't confirm this -- I'm just guessing).
Honestly? I think anime cons running as non-profits is a huge mistake that will destroy them in the long-run. When we eventually run our GeekNights con, you can bet it will be a fully for-profit venture.
I'm not an expert in the field, so I'm not sure what the pros/cons are of being for-profit/non-profit, other than perhaps some tax benefit for being non-profit.
As stated earlier, when you look at the actual number of attendees, the numbers are quite similar.
Consider that it appears PAX East could fairly easily tack on another 5-10k badges next year if they use the rest of the space and get more Enforcers. They very likely capped attendance below what could actually be managed in the center to minimize the chance of problems their first year there. I expect a big increase in available badges next year.
And if they do tack on that additional number of badges, then yes, they will be much bigger (of course, we have yet to see what AB's attendance will be this year). Talking to the senior AB staff, they do feel that AB at the Hynes/Sheraton combo can scale to just over 20k, but they admit that they probably can't handle much more than that.
Either way, as I said, even if PAX does grow to 25-30k, 17-20k is still a pretty darned big convention. It's just not "OMG huge!"
I'm not an expert in the field, so I'm not sure what the pros/cons are of being for-profit/non-profit, other than perhaps some tax benefit for being non-profit.
For profits can do whatever they want and have much lower paperwork burdens. They can very easily sell tickets rather than using the silly "membership" loophole that most anime cons use. They can reinvest in themselves as much as they want, and have the discretion to pay people whatever they want should they need to pay people.
Non-profits can't easily change ownership, and have substantially higher regulatory burdens. They have to worry about their purpose statement. They can't contribute to elections or lobby freely. They have problems if they every make money from anything not directly related to what they were formed to do. They can run into trouble if they compete directly with for-profits in the same industry and garner any advantage from their non-profit status.
It's a pain in the arse that severely limits one's options in running a convention.
"A. The only people to blame for this is us. Obviously Anime Boston has nothing to do with it, and neither does the MCCA/Boston/Reed. There are a number of factors playing into the decision to choose Easter Weekend, including:
1. Actually having dates where the entirety of the convention center is open, and that's not just for show days. It takes us five full days to setup and two full days to strike. 2. Not overlapping the Boston Marathon 3. Not being close to any large event/conferences within boston that would hurt our ability to negotiate for lower hotel room rates for attendees. 4. Not overlapping with GDC (since many developers and publishers go to both) 5. Not overlapping with Anime Boston 6. Not overlapping with SXSW 7. As far away from PAX Prime the previous year (so not too early) so we can plan the show. 8. As far away from PAX Prime, E3 and SDCC the next year (so not too late).
So, that said, when looking at that list, I came to the realization a long time ago fulfilling all of those is an impossibility. One of two of those gives every year. (same with prime, only with different criteria/shows) For instance, this year we needed to overlap with SXSW, and tons of speakers and guests couldn't make it because they were booked for that. It's just a reality of the show."
Yea, I completely understand this. Zenkaikon has this problem every year, and that's actually why we had to skip a year last year. Hopefully if we do well this year (which we should) we can lock in a 1-3 year deal with wherever we are going to be in the future.
Prime was always over a holiday weekend, and this served it well. This year's move away from that is a big departure. Moving TO a holiday weekend for East was a logical step, and I assume Prime will try to move back to the holiday weekend as soon as possible.
This sucks because I have to then make a decision to diss one of the few times Laura gets with her family to go to PAX (or AB) that sucks.
Honestly? I think anime cons running as non-profits is a huge mistake that will destroy them in the long-run. When we eventually run our GeekNights con, you can bet it will be a fully for-profit venture.
I tend to feel better about volunteering at a convention that is non-profit. I think the bigger problem is most non-profits don't have lawyers on staff that know how to use their non-profit status for things like donations and corporate sponsorships.
Consider that it appears PAX East could fairly easily tack on another 5-10k badges next year if they use the rest of the space and get more Enforcers. They very likely capped attendance below what could actually be managed in the center to minimize the chance of problems their first year there. I expect a big increase in available badges next year.
I know already why they did it but I was really surprised by the under utilization of the rooms and large open areas.
Okay, I see the pros for a for-profit and the cons for a non-profit, but there has to be some cons for a for-profit and vice versa. Or is it purely the tax thing?
Actually, I was told that the reason why we do the "membership" thing as opposed to tickets is so that we don't have to deal with TicketMaster and the like.
Okay, I see the pros for a for-profit and the cons for a non-profit, but there has to be some cons for a for-profit and vice versa. Or is it purely the tax thing?
huh?
The only reason I can think of why a for-profit convention is better is that since you have a profit motivation you tend to be stricter with budgets and the people who get the return on the investment are way more motivated to work hard to get the event to succeed.
A negative is when a con like Connecitcon gets into financial trouble and someone like the webcomic community bails them out. I wonder what was really going on because they were for-profit. If they were non-profit I wouldn't have as big a problem AND I can write the donation off :-p
Comments
Nothing is set it stone yet though. We're still trying to see if there is some miraculous rescheduling that can be pulled off so the dates do not conflict.
Lou, I really like the idea of some sort of reduced price evening pass, or some other such innovation in registration. Given how scattered PAX attendees are going to be all over Boston, with of course many near the Hynes, and food better near the Hynes, I can imagine a bit of overflow from the more casual PAXer (ie, those who actually might go out and see the city a bit, which might seem strange to the hardcore but those folks are out there somewhere).
Also, there *might* be some people who wouldn't come to Boston just for either convention alone, but could be pushed over the line by knowing both cons are in town. Dunno if PAX would be motivated to participate, since they sell out anyway. But I wonder how many people who buy 1-day passes to PAX would stick around (or drive back in from the burbs) for another 1-day at AB.
I wouldn't be surprised if PAX had 5,000 or so more badges to sell next year, if not more. (Personal opinion, not based on anything they've said).
"PAX East organizers have told Joystiq that the show's attendance at the Boston Convention and Exhibition Center was 69,500, making it the biggest PAX convention yet. Last year's inaugural PAX East show welcomed 52,290 revelers to the smaller Hynes Convention Center."
I guess, from a sales and marketing perspective, that's valid. Salespeople just care about sacks of flesh that spend money, and if the same sack of flesh spends money 3 days in a row, that's the same as 3 sacks of flesh spending money on a single day each.
Though I feel like an asshole whenever I point it out. I mean 21,000 to 30,000 is still a crazy number.
Connecticon is 17,000-20,000 by a turnstile count. Otakon is pushing 80,000.
(Note, man I can't believe I typed sound instead of sold... what's up with that?)
It'll also be interesting to see if AB keeps up its growth. 17k was last year's number and AB has steadily grown by about 2-3k each year it's been in the Hynes. I'm actually seriously considering asking AB's PR staff to report its attendance as turnstile count -- or at least offer both numbers for a fair comparison.
BTW, on the PAX forums, Robert Khoo has said that he is going to try to work out some way for both cons to co-exist peacefully and that not conflicting with AB was on his radar. There may even be an AB badge booth at PAX for those who wish to attend both cons (and probably vice versa).
I think the scheduling is wholly intentional, because of two factors:
1. The demographics of the two cons do not necessarily overlap to the point of mutual detriment. AB probably skews younger and female, while PAXE probably skews older and male. I don't have actual demographic numbers, though; that would be interesting data to have. So, Khoo has probably made a calculated move.
2. Even though the demographics don't overlap, Anime Boston is still competition for PAXE, as the city itself only has so many resources (hotels, public transit, restaurants, etc). Since Khoo is running a business, he's familiar with competition, and has probably figured that PAXE will fare better from head-to-head competition than will AB (since the guy can drop 8 figures like that). That'll make PAXE look more valuable to the city of Boston and its various business resources. Hotels will see that more people are flocking to PAXE, so they'll give it preferential treatment and slowly edge out AB.
I think it's entirely possible that Khoo is looking to invest in the future of PAXE in Boston, by ousting the competition. Is it super bastardly and naieve to open up a Lowe's across the street from a mom-and-pop hardware store? OK, there's this too.
But still, I think he's trying to strongly assert the presence of PAX in Boston.
Interesting, though, that not conflicting is only "on his radar." That implies that that's not where he is right now.
To most professionals in the convention business, they wouldn't even consider for a second that anyone used anything but turnstile as their count method.
Also, while AB is not an 8 figure con (where did that number come from, btw?), AB isn't exactly small potatoes either. Its budget is in the high 6 to low 7 figures, and part of the reason why our budget is smaller is that we charge our exhibitors significantly less than PAX does (granted, our exhibitors are also no where near as flushed with cash as PAX's -- the anime industry is no where near as well off as the game industry). Our registration prices also tend to be lower, which also makes our budget smaller. Finally, AB is run by a full-fledged non-profit (Reed is a for-profit corporation, no matter how much of the proceeds, if any, of PAX go to Child's Play), so there may be regulatory issues that keep our budget lower as we can't just pile on excess profits from year to year (not being an accountant/lawyer, I can't confirm this -- I'm just guessing). As stated earlier, when you look at the actual number of attendees, the numbers are quite similar.
Either way, as I said, even if PAX does grow to 25-30k, 17-20k is still a pretty darned big convention. It's just not "OMG huge!"
Non-profits can't easily change ownership, and have substantially higher regulatory burdens. They have to worry about their purpose statement. They can't contribute to elections or lobby freely. They have problems if they every make money from anything not directly related to what they were formed to do. They can run into trouble if they compete directly with for-profits in the same industry and garner any advantage from their non-profit status.
It's a pain in the arse that severely limits one's options in running a convention.
"A. The only people to blame for this is us. Obviously Anime Boston has nothing to do with it, and neither does the MCCA/Boston/Reed. There are a number of factors playing into the decision to choose Easter Weekend, including:
1. Actually having dates where the entirety of the convention center is open, and that's not just for show days. It takes us five full days to setup and two full days to strike.
2. Not overlapping the Boston Marathon
3. Not being close to any large event/conferences within boston that would hurt our ability to negotiate for lower hotel room rates for attendees.
4. Not overlapping with GDC (since many developers and publishers go to both)
5. Not overlapping with Anime Boston
6. Not overlapping with SXSW
7. As far away from PAX Prime the previous year (so not too early) so we can plan the show.
8. As far away from PAX Prime, E3 and SDCC the next year (so not too late).
So, that said, when looking at that list, I came to the realization a long time ago fulfilling all of those is an impossibility. One of two of those gives every year. (same with prime, only with different criteria/shows) For instance, this year we needed to overlap with SXSW, and tons of speakers and guests couldn't make it because they were booked for that. It's just a reality of the show."
Yea, I completely understand this. Zenkaikon has this problem every year, and that's actually why we had to skip a year last year. Hopefully if we do well this year (which we should) we can lock in a 1-3 year deal with wherever we are going to be in the future.
This sucks because I have to then make a decision to diss one of the few times Laura gets with her family to go to PAX (or AB) that sucks.
I tend to feel better about volunteering at a convention that is non-profit. I think the bigger problem is most non-profits don't have lawyers on staff that know how to use their non-profit status for things like donations and corporate sponsorships.
Actually, I was told that the reason why we do the "membership" thing as opposed to tickets is so that we don't have to deal with TicketMaster and the like.
The only reason I can think of why a for-profit convention is better is that since you have a profit motivation you tend to be stricter with budgets and the people who get the return on the investment are way more motivated to work hard to get the event to succeed.
A negative is when a con like Connecitcon gets into financial trouble and someone like the webcomic community bails them out. I wonder what was really going on because they were for-profit. If they were non-profit I wouldn't have as big a problem AND I can write the donation off :-p