Okay so this thread has become a tangle of entwined threads; a rope of sorts.
Regarding Turnflict: any progress on your project, Scott?
Regarding SS13 clone: I am definitely interested in SS13 based on conversations with Andrew. I am currently toying with a framework using libtcod (pytcod) for client GUI and twisted for networking; Andrew was working on some design ideas last I talked with him. Anyone out there interested in SS13 have suggestions to improve gameplay?
Regarding Goblin Camp: Does anyone have experience with Goblin Camp and its progress, so that I can be lazy and not do all that research myself?
Regarding SS14, can we please not use ASCII art and interface but instead use LttP style art and a similar interface where you use WASD for walking around and the keys under the right hand for interacting with things and using items. I can handle art on LttP level graphics.
Also, This may be kind of an expansion on the core SS13 idea but hear me out: Instead of having it be a round based game like SS13, play it more like the multiplayer persistent Dwarf Fortress game we were thinking about where players start by entering the remains of a derelict station with breathing suits and have to bring systems back on line and repair rooms before they can be used. Once the basics are established, you get more players to join with their own occupation.
E.g. Churba would join and set up a bar which helps keep people's sanity up and stress down by visiting it. To do this, he has to trade drinks with other stations (Via some kind of server interlink.), get the botanists to make him plants to brew or use chemicals he finds lying around, etc..
This way you're aiming to run a working station over a long period of time and attract players who go about their various occupations to try and get by until the inevitable gang war/power struggle/outbreak renders the station uninhabitable and a new set of players gets sent in to build things back up from the derelict wreck.
One concern is that such a game would open itself to greifing extremely easily; some jerk with a power tool opens up the hull and decompresses everything, or breaks the heat radiation system and lets the reactor cook off, and everyone's hard work is gone. Some way of setting up automated security to protect the server would be a requirement if you also wanted the game to have the DF level of flexibility/creativity.
Also, any space-based game needs to have a heat dispersion mechanic right up there with life support and fuel and stuff. It pisses me off whenever science fiction ignores the massive importance of heat management in space, and the idea that limiting the running of machinery not due to fuel shortages but in order to keep the station temperature down is an interesting mechanic, and it's also something you won't run out of. Running out of power for the reactor is a long-term concern of running too much power, but overheating the station is a short term concern and can be used to keep things dynamic.
SUPEREDIT : And of course a game like this would NEED space pirate raids! And a space mafia!
"That's a nice set of radiators you got there. Keep everyone cool, don't they? Shame if a meteor just happened to hit it..."
Wouldn't be so easy. Each room would seal shut if the door detects a vacuum or fire or robees on the other side, also, you need the right keycard to access the right areas and lockers to get the right equipment, make sure you've not been flagged on the security system and then know how to screw up a system without dying in the process.
Edit: Re Heat: I think having the heat dispersion generally take care of itself like the oxygen until something major happens. For an example, watch They Were 11 to see the problem they run into where they have to alter the ships orbit to stop the increased sunlight causing the plants to poison everyone. It would be cool to have a server variable be how hot/cold/fluctuating the area is and have things be different because of that, e.g. Hot areas have more exotic minerals to mine and growing is easier but you have to shield your station at all times and keep it's orbit under control. Cold areas make water crystal mining possible but you have to keep the station warm or the metal starts to crack.
Sure, on a fully fixed station. But in the early days, or on a station taking a long time to restore/without power for other reasons, carving a hole in the hull for lulz and killing everyone would be a major concern.
Then again, in a simulation, that might not actually be griefing. That might just be role-playing a Space Terrorist.
I kind of don't like the idea of automation "taking care" of something in space, at least not on any kind of early or cheap station. Space is scary and definately not a good place for humans to be 99% of the time; a thin wall and some mechanical bits are all that's keeping you from explosive decompression, starvation, oxygen deprivation, radiation poisoning, overheating, and getting mashed by micrometeors. Maybe I'm just a sucker for the Firefly sort of used universe, but as I understand it the idea is that the players are rebuilding an old and broken station? Well, in that case, I'm 100% behind reminding players every step that it is only by the grace of the jury-rigged, cheaply bought and poorly maintained gear on the station that they aren't dead yet.
Re: Space terrorists: You could also have several groups on a single derelict station vying for control. Also, the whole ship would be sectioned with every few rooms sectioned off into bulk-heads to minimise damage. Also, when you first go in, there's already holes everywhere and you can only take off your space suit when you return to your landing craft.
Maybe have varying levels of dangerous situation, for instance: Calm old trade hub that needs a bit of paint and some new parts or instead you are illegally salvaging the ores from an explosives mining facility.
That sounds good. It'd also be a good way to make sure new players can be introduced to the game while retaining a lot of depth; a veteran player could introduce new players to the game by starting a game where they go to an old Soviet communication pinwheel to steal everything not nailed down in order to introduce them to the basic mechanics and the sort of parts they'd deal with, then they could graduate to actually rebuilding a broken down Space UN mining dome embedded in the side of an asteroid or something like that with the rest of the players who know the game already. If there was a persistance system of some kind, they could even take the parts they stole from said Soviet communication pinwheel onto the mining station, only to discover crappy Eastern Bloc parts don't fit into Space UN parts from that era due to a lack of standardization and they need to tool adaptors, but all they got are the jigs from a North Chinese part-stamper that another player picked up in one of his games, so now they need to build it from scratch, which requires power, which requires the reactor to work, which means they need more parts...
Next thing you know, they've run wires from their landing craft's pebblebed reactor into the fusion core of the old station to jump-start it and their plan to deal with radiation leaks is to stick gum in the holes.
can we please not use ASCII art and interface but instead use LttP style art
Not unless you want to write the client. I like the old school feel of terminal like games. Don't fret though. Libtcod is a terminal emulator, with full SDL callbacks.
For example, does this look horrible to you?
a similar interface where you use WASD for walking around and the keys under the right hand for interacting with things and using items.
Yes, think Alien Swarm in terms of controls. Also, any proper game allows you to change the keybinds.
I'm really, really hesitant about the idea of persistence. One of the charms about SS13 IMO is that rounds are relatively quick and it keeps it interesting. We can make them a bit longer and focus more on getting the station operational, but I really don't want to focus on building. This is the finest distilled griefing for a more civilized age.
Well, in that case, I'm 100% behind reminding players every step that it is only by the grace of the jury-rigged, cheaply bought and poorly maintained gear on the station that they aren't dead yet.
Yes, the idea that the station is dilapidated is a nice one. Maybe certain sections are more dangerous and require more teamwork to make operational, but also provide better benefits (i.e. Med-Bay is half blown open and you need to repair it before you can access the "bacta tanks" to heal).
Instead of having it be a round based game like SS13, play it more like the multiplayer persistent Dwarf Fortress game we were thinking about where players start by entering the remains of a derelict station with breathing suits and have to bring systems back on line and repair rooms before they can be used. Once the basics are established, you get more players to join with their own occupation.
Except that, you know, that is boring as fuck. SS13 has the extended game mode for that, which means nothing will happen. Guess why this mode is never chosen for populous servers?
which helps keep people's sanity up and stress down by visiting it
Except not when he got his traitor buddy the chemists to make some nasty poison to put in all the drinks.
until the inevitable gang war/power struggle/outbreak renders the station uninhabitable
This will happen within the first 10 minutes. Also fuck you for suggesting people should wait because they got a job that's not "FIX THE STATION". What are you going to do to people who log in the endless round? Do they magically disappear? Do they go comatose in a cabin? Or do you just kill them and stuff them in the kitchen to make food? What if that person then returns later on?
I'd suggest you play SS13 for a while before making more suggestions. Know what makes the game fun and what makes the game not-fun.
SUPEREDIT : And of course a game like this would NEED space pirate raids! And a space mafia!
And we're back to just SS13.
carving a hole in the hull for lulz and killing everyone would be a major concern.
That's why you ban those people. Which is not fun.
Then again, in a simulation, that might not actually be griefing. That might just be role-playing a Space Terrorist.
That's why you have syndicates on SS13. They are specifically assigned to fuck shit up. Having a player themselves suddenly decide that "OH, I'm a terrorist now! BZZZ BZZZZZ, BREATHE STATION, BREATHE! BZZZZZ BZZZZZZ" before being flung into empty space because he made a hole is just stupid. At the least they should try to clear it with an admin before going off and fucking themselves with powertools.
but as I understand it the idea is that the players are rebuilding an old and broken station?
Fuck no, it is not. Having a handful of engineers crawl around space fixing up a whole fucking station is gruellingly boring work. Not to mention all the other people that want to play the game but have to wait because those fucking engineers are taking so long. Start with a whole station. There is absolutely no roleplay reason to man a station that's unfinished. Go read the fluff on SS13, it'll give you some better ideas that reading Omnutia's posts. Hell, more people reading that shit first before talking about a SS13 clone would greatly speed up any needed discussion. For one, fuck Python. It's too slow.
Next thing you know, they've made a logistics nightmare no server could deal with and spam "/suicide" because nothing fucking happens.
can we please not use ASCII art and interface but instead use LttP style art
Not unless you want to write the client. I like the old school feel of terminal like games. Don't fret though. Libtcod is a terminal emulator, with full SDL callbacks.
For example, does this look horrible to you? [fish vid]
I agree with Andrew here. It took a few of these YouTube videos to convince me. There was one video where speech was handled by floating speech balloons over the @ symbol character. I fucking loved that style. Between that vid and the fish vid demonstrating mouse interface amongst other things, I'm convinced libtcod is a good GUI.
I'm really, really hesitant about the idea of persistence.
On this, I could see an argument for persistence given some of Omnutia's ideas. For example, the station could randomly be "attacked" by environmental effects. People's missions, as SS13 already seems to have, could be to infiltrate and destroy certain aspects of the ship (griefing as a game mechanic!). Once someone logs out or gets killed, that character is lost and the player must begin anew when the next shuttle craft docks. The only thing that is persistent is the state of the station, but if we engineer it correctly, that will be ever changing.
Besides, if the station is totally hosed, game over. Restart with a new "round."
Andrew, we should chat sometime about design docs. I don't actually know how you were thinking such documents would look. In my minimal software engineering experience (usually I'm a rogue programmer), it seems like everybody does it differently.
To everyone making suggestions: I like 'em. However, I'm having a hard time reading them. I was wondering if gameplay suggestions could take the form of narrative story. This is similar to how the oft-forgot "DF guy's brother" inspires game mechanics by writing stories of what the game should be able to produce.
Concept by example: The system's AI was tweaking a bit too much amperage, blowing through nearly all the critical safety procedures. Alarms in the Engineering Core sounded shortly after the first circuits began to sizzle, and shortly thereafter some engineers were hacking away at the station's innards. For some reason, the access panels had been welded and then covered with some kind of sticky substance that was not going away.
Through in tact logic circuits and the remnants of safety procedures to protect itself, the AI found any attempts to access the computer or electrical system a direct assault upon its longevity. A robot entered the room, eyes glowing red with the murderous intent of AI control, claw arms snapping in practice for human necks.
The Project D.O.R.F. prototype, that had nothing more than a randomly generated image of a heightmap and randomly walking about actors, all written in python, was slower than DF. I recall the goal being to make a faster DF. Or at least one that would stand up to Apreche's stupid behaviour in- and out-of game. Either Python is too slow for the goals of the project, or we must bar Apreche from writing the engine again.
Omnutia's ideas
For the love of god, ignore those till he has found his brain.
Once someone logs out or gets killed, that character is lost
Hi, I'm Bob. Do not mind me running around with this station critical hardware and then disconnecting because of a thunderstorm in my area cutting the power momentarily. OOPS.
What are you going to do to people who log in the endless round? Do they magically disappear? Do they go comatose in a cabin? Or do you just kill them and stuff them in the kitchen to make food?
This is my only real thought against persistence. It's a pretty good point.
Hi, I'm Bob. Do not mind me running around with this station critical hardware and then disconnecting because of a thunderstorm in my area cutting the power momentarily. OOPS.
How is this not a problem with current SS13? I'm not being rhetorical or an asshole, I am genuinely asking.
Yeah, any Project D.O.R.F. slowness was not Python's fault; it was the engine's (i.e. Scott's, initially). I distinctly remember making a massive speed improvement to it myself, actually. Air Co., did you try it before or after that change?
Damn you [are] passionate bout this, I can't even come close to keeping up with your comments.
I'm of the mind that, while I cannot program worth shit and thus am not really helpful on that front, I can attempt to smash some sense into suggestions that are just ridiculously stupid. If you start with a broken down station with holes in the hulls and shit, and you're not fluffing that as "ROBOTS GO IN AND FIX SHIT SO YOU CAN BREATHE" but as "fix this station humans!" then you're either going to have all engineers (which is stupid), or you're benching people not wanting to play engineers because there's no fucking reason why a medical doctor should run around with sheet metal fixing up holes in a hull. As for keeping up with comments, I read blocks of posts, then reply to them and edit as I go on.
How is this not a problem with current SS13?
If you disconnect from the game your character remains in-game. Brain-dead with everything they had and they randomly move about a bit, till you log back in, at which point you're connected back to your character and can go on with your antics. That is, if you are still alive. But that's a different problem.
Yeah, any Project D.O.R.F. slowness was not Python's fault; it was the engine's (i.e. Scott's, initially). I distinctly remember making a massive speed improvement to it myself, actually.
I know it was the engine's fault. But saying Apreche did a shit job out of the blue is just stroking his hateboner too quickly even for my tastes. So I blame Python, then open Pandora's vase.
Also, everyone needs to understand that SS13 is a legitimate greifing simulator.
Only on the goonstations. Random griefing is boring. A good syndicate traitor griefing and then succeeding in his objectives often leads to awesome griefing. Works best is players actually roleplay though.
Also, everyone needs to understand that SS13 is a legitimate greifing simulator.
I got all my SS13 info from Andrew, so this is pretty much my interpretation of the game. Griefing (breaking the station), griefing the griefers (fixing the station), griefing the griefing of the griefers (preventing the fixing of the station), ad infinitum
Only on the goonstations. Random griefing is boring. A good syndicate traitor griefing and then succeeding in his objectives often leads to awesome griefing. Works best is players actually roleplay though.
Posted By: BryanDamn you [are]is passionate bout thdis, I can't even come close to keeping up with your comments.
That grammatical choice is from 70s colloquial speech in the US, which is much more emotionally emphatic than scripted King's or Queen's or Other Authoritarian's English. I did forget to change "this" to "dis", though.
How is this not a problem with current SS13?
If you disconnect from the game your character remains in-game. Brain-dead with everything they had and they randomly move about a bit, till you log back in, at which point you're connected back to your character and can go on with your antics. That is, if you are still alive. But that's a different problem.
So, if you lost power as per the lightning storm example, it is unlikely your power will be up for the next few hours (at least that is true if you live in any area I have ever lived). By that time the round will be over, and your char will have sat brain dead and dormant, potentially in some critical facility or with some critical components.
Is your argument against persistence that round changes will clear out all the people who have been disconnected allowing a fresh start for properly connected players?
I mean, what you cite could still be done in a persistent system. Leave a char braindead for say 5 or 15 mins, if the player reconnects in that time frame, brain dead cured. If the player doesn't reconnect, then that char is "lost" somehow. Could always go with the classic futuristic sci-fi explanation of genetic malformities that express in exposure to the heightened radiation of a space station (not everyone has them and they cannot be predicted). Such a disease is characterized by an episode of catatonic schizophrenia, and sometimes it is followed by heart failure (and death).
I think primarily we need to focus on the core game. Are people repairing the station together? Is it already built and just trying to survive? We need to fully define what the fuck people are supposed to do before we can talk about details.
It sounds like different game modes are desired, just like SS13 appears to have.
A persistent mode would have its own set of challenges for the players to overcome as separate from the sorts of challenges that round-based mode would have.
Keeping that in mind, it sounds like the preference is to focus on round mode.
Given round mode (short time frame), what should the goal be? I was a little unclear about exactly what SS13 does in round mode, if the ship is randomly damaged at the start, or if it starts out perfect and griefer challenges must be overcome before "the shuttle arrives." I'm also unclear about what the importance is for this shuttle.
Given round mode (short time frame), what should the goal be? I was a little unclear about exactly what SS13 does in round mode, if the ship is randomly damaged at the start, or if it starts out perfect and griefer challenges must be overcome before "the shuttle arrives." I'm also unclear about what the importance is for this shuttle.
Okay after reading more about the short term game modes, I'm tempted to pose two options:
Option 1. There are fixed game modes (such as AI Goes Insane or Traitor) which can be voted on and work very much like SS13. There are explicit end times (which are presented as the emergency shuttle departing).
Option 2. Missions are given and/or environmental effects happen, which basically result in the game modes shown. The difference is that, rather than being hard coded scenarios, it might be possible for the AI go to batshit while two traitors are trying to take the ship. Instead of using arbitrary end times, the game would be setup so that the inevitability of environmental effects destroying the station become guaranteed as people can't work to repair the ship against them. Either everybody dies from the station being destroyed (because the station isn't being maintained) or the person/group that accomplishes goals (to the exclusion of others' goals) wins.
Thoughts?
(I'll save Nine some time and effort from debunking option 2 by assuming he emphatically chooses Option 1)
That grammatical choice is from 70s colloquial speech in the US
What? It's still the seventies?! MY CALENDER IS WROOOOOOOOOOOOOONG! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! (also, forum rules forbid us from going all "yo nigga mah homie how ya bin?" around here)
at least that is true if you live in any area I have ever lived
Move to Europe. Thunderstorms rarely, if ever cut power here. This is the difference between running cables underground instead of hanging them up on toothpicks underneath trees. Even then I've seen people return from the dead (in-game) during thunderstorms only 20 minutes after they dropped, at which point the round was still in full swing.
By that time the round will be over, and your char will have sat brain dead and dormant, potentially in some critical facility or with some critical components.
Thunderstorm is just one of many. The game can crash, your internet can flounder for a moment, you close a window only to realize you accidentally closed the game and not that annoying Joe Boomer chat that popped up (SHUT UP JOE BOOMER, soon in theatres), or the server just dropped you because it's shit. There's many different ways of temporarily losing connection to a server. Just making the character disappear (and then having the items he carried appear back on the station) is a crazy way of going about that. IC as well. I call it braindead, but in SS13 I think the game tells you something along the lines of "X doesn't appear to want to talk." when you examine him with the player disconnected. No real reason to remove the character with a puff of smoke. The station can handle that random body. Putting it in a morgue helps. At which point the cook comes along, drags the vegetable to the kitchen and turns him into meat for burgers. Resulting in the MacGuffin ending up whoknowswhere.
Is your argument against persistence that round changes will clear out all the people who have been disconnected allowing a fresh start for properly connected players?
My main argument against persistence is that it's infeasible. Example, some asshole blows up the station with a nuke. Killing everyone. Nothing is left of the station safe for some scrap metal (that should be useless). What are you going to do? Save the map and state of death of the characters, then clean up, reload the map and all the dead people? If the people won't stay dead, why not just have the station not stay dead as well? I agree that the idea of saying as players that you need a second medbay on the other end of the ship and then building it and having it persist between rounds is awesome, however at that point you come across the same problem Minecraft servers suffer from. People join, destroy and build the environment, and then others cry about griefing because the environment that was destroyed was the environment they build. Now add this to the extremely volatile nature of SS13 stations. Shit often blows up. At the end of the round you sometimes have to hope you can dive fast enough through space to read the other part of the escape arm or you're dead. In that regards Andrew is spot on. Minecraft is a griefing simulator, emergent from the game mechanics. SS13 is that, distilled and turned up to 11 with game mechanics. There are actual people whose goal it is to blow shit up, to make sure only they get on the shuttle and survive.
Such a disease is characterized by an episode of catatonic schizophrenia followed by heart failure (and death).
Sure, that would be a fine way to go about it IC. That is however no argument in favour off endless rounds and persistence. Just a way to deal with players logging off in the middle of the game when they're still alive.
We need to fully define what the fuck people are supposed to do before we can talk about details.
It would help if people read how SS13 is done first before making wild guesses as comments.
I think we need to take a lot of influence from the Paranoia RPG, but the key is determining if we are going the gimmick route or the super serious route.
There are explicit end times (which are presented as the emergency shuttle departing).
Realize that non-extended mode games in SS13 can take anywhere from 20 minutes to well over an hour. The emergency shuttle can be called almost at any time, then takes 10 minutes to get to the station and then waits 3 minutes or before leaving. When it comes however depends on the captain and his fellow heads of staff. You can even recall the shuttle if you asked for it to come too early. Or some gamemodes even disallow the shuttle to arrive and be boarded because of say, a revolution amongst the staff of the station. This option 1 is SS13.
Option 2. Missions are given and/or environmental effects happen, which basically result in the game modes shown. The difference is that, rather than being hard coded scenarios, it might be possible for the AI go to batshit while two traitors are trying to take the ship. Instead of using arbitrary end times, the game would be setup so that the inevitability of environmental effects destroying the station become guaranteed as people can't work to repair the ship against them. Either everybody dies from the station being destroyed (because the station isn't being maintained) or the person/group that accomplishes goals (to the exclusion of others' goals) wins.
And this option 2, is also SS13. My advice to you would be, play some rounds of SS13 and see how the game works. When you have traitors (or revolutionists, or aliens sucking off people's faces, etc) running around the ship, sometimes, either randomly or by admins invoking, strange things like meteor storms or ion storms or worse happen. Fucking up the hull or the AI or even the characters that got themselves exposed to heavy doses of radiation. SS13 is neither fully scripted, or fully non-scripted.
Comments
Regarding Turnflict: any progress on your project, Scott?
Regarding SS13 clone: I am definitely interested in SS13 based on conversations with Andrew. I am currently toying with a framework using libtcod (pytcod) for client GUI and twisted for networking; Andrew was working on some design ideas last I talked with him. Anyone out there interested in SS13 have suggestions to improve gameplay?
Regarding Goblin Camp: Does anyone have experience with Goblin Camp and its progress, so that I can be lazy and not do all that research myself?
Also, This may be kind of an expansion on the core SS13 idea but hear me out:
Instead of having it be a round based game like SS13, play it more like the multiplayer persistent Dwarf Fortress game we were thinking about where players start by entering the remains of a derelict station with breathing suits and have to bring systems back on line and repair rooms before they can be used. Once the basics are established, you get more players to join with their own occupation.
E.g. Churba would join and set up a bar which helps keep people's sanity up and stress down by visiting it. To do this, he has to trade drinks with other stations (Via some kind of server interlink.), get the botanists to make him plants to brew or use chemicals he finds lying around, etc..
This way you're aiming to run a working station over a long period of time and attract players who go about their various occupations to try and get by until the inevitable gang war/power struggle/outbreak renders the station uninhabitable and a new set of players gets sent in to build things back up from the derelict wreck.
One concern is that such a game would open itself to greifing extremely easily; some jerk with a power tool opens up the hull and decompresses everything, or breaks the heat radiation system and lets the reactor cook off, and everyone's hard work is gone. Some way of setting up automated security to protect the server would be a requirement if you also wanted the game to have the DF level of flexibility/creativity.
Also, any space-based game needs to have a heat dispersion mechanic right up there with life support and fuel and stuff. It pisses me off whenever science fiction ignores the massive importance of heat management in space, and the idea that limiting the running of machinery not due to fuel shortages but in order to keep the station temperature down is an interesting mechanic, and it's also something you won't run out of. Running out of power for the reactor is a long-term concern of running too much power, but overheating the station is a short term concern and can be used to keep things dynamic.
SUPEREDIT : And of course a game like this would NEED space pirate raids! And a space mafia!
"That's a nice set of radiators you got there. Keep everyone cool, don't they? Shame if a meteor just happened to hit it..."
Edit: Re Heat: I think having the heat dispersion generally take care of itself like the oxygen until something major happens. For an example, watch They Were 11 to see the problem they run into where they have to alter the ships orbit to stop the increased sunlight causing the plants to poison everyone.
It would be cool to have a server variable be how hot/cold/fluctuating the area is and have things be different because of that, e.g. Hot areas have more exotic minerals to mine and growing is easier but you have to shield your station at all times and keep it's orbit under control. Cold areas make water crystal mining possible but you have to keep the station warm or the metal starts to crack.
Then again, in a simulation, that might not actually be griefing. That might just be role-playing a Space Terrorist.
I kind of don't like the idea of automation "taking care" of something in space, at least not on any kind of early or cheap station. Space is scary and definately not a good place for humans to be 99% of the time; a thin wall and some mechanical bits are all that's keeping you from explosive decompression, starvation, oxygen deprivation, radiation poisoning, overheating, and getting mashed by micrometeors. Maybe I'm just a sucker for the Firefly sort of used universe, but as I understand it the idea is that the players are rebuilding an old and broken station? Well, in that case, I'm 100% behind reminding players every step that it is only by the grace of the jury-rigged, cheaply bought and poorly maintained gear on the station that they aren't dead yet.
Re: Space terrorists: You could also have several groups on a single derelict station vying for control.
Also, the whole ship would be sectioned with every few rooms sectioned off into bulk-heads to minimise damage. Also, when you first go in, there's already holes everywhere and you can only take off your space suit when you return to your landing craft.
Maybe have varying levels of dangerous situation, for instance: Calm old trade hub that needs a bit of paint and some new parts or instead you are illegally salvaging the ores from an explosives mining facility.
Next thing you know, they've run wires from their landing craft's pebblebed reactor into the fusion core of the old station to jump-start it and their plan to deal with radiation leaks is to stick gum in the holes.
For example, does this look horrible to you?
I'm really, really hesitant about the idea of persistence. One of the charms about SS13 IMO is that rounds are relatively quick and it keeps it interesting. We can make them a bit longer and focus more on getting the station operational, but I really don't want to focus on building. This is the finest distilled griefing for a more civilized age. Yes, the idea that the station is dilapidated is a nice one. Maybe certain sections are more dangerous and require more teamwork to make operational, but also provide better benefits (i.e. Med-Bay is half blown open and you need to repair it before you can access the "bacta tanks" to heal).
I'd suggest you play SS13 for a while before making more suggestions. Know what makes the game fun and what makes the game not-fun. And we're back to just SS13. That's why you ban those people. Which is not fun. That's why you have syndicates on SS13. They are specifically assigned to fuck shit up. Having a player themselves suddenly decide that "OH, I'm a terrorist now! BZZZ BZZZZZ, BREATHE STATION, BREATHE! BZZZZZ BZZZZZZ" before being flung into empty space because he made a hole is just stupid. At the least they should try to clear it with an admin before going off and fucking themselves with powertools. Fuck no, it is not. Having a handful of engineers crawl around space fixing up a whole fucking station is gruellingly boring work. Not to mention all the other people that want to play the game but have to wait because those fucking engineers are taking so long. Start with a whole station. There is absolutely no roleplay reason to man a station that's unfinished. Go read the fluff on SS13, it'll give you some better ideas that reading Omnutia's posts. Hell, more people reading that shit first before talking about a SS13 clone would greatly speed up any needed discussion. For one, fuck Python. It's too slow. Thankfully you'lll never write that game. No, but it also doesn't look viable.
Besides, if the station is totally hosed, game over. Restart with a new "round."
Andrew, we should chat sometime about design docs. I don't actually know how you were thinking such documents would look. In my minimal software engineering experience (usually I'm a rogue programmer), it seems like everybody does it differently.
To everyone making suggestions: I like 'em. However, I'm having a hard time reading them. I was wondering if gameplay suggestions could take the form of narrative story. This is similar to how the oft-forgot "DF guy's brother" inspires game mechanics by writing stories of what the game should be able to produce.
The system's AI was tweaking a bit too much amperage, blowing through nearly all the critical safety procedures. Alarms in the Engineering Core sounded shortly after the first circuits began to sizzle, and shortly thereafter some engineers were hacking away at the station's innards. For some reason, the access panels had been welded and then covered with some kind of sticky substance that was not going away.
Through in tact logic circuits and the remnants of safety procedures to protect itself, the AI found any attempts to access the computer or electrical system a direct assault upon its longevity. A robot entered the room, eyes glowing red with the murderous intent of AI control, claw arms snapping in practice for human necks.
Air Co., did you try it before or after that change?
Also, everyone needs to understand that SS13 is a legitimate greifing simulator.
Is your argument against persistence that round changes will clear out all the people who have been disconnected allowing a fresh start for properly connected players?
I mean, what you cite could still be done in a persistent system. Leave a char braindead for say 5 or 15 mins, if the player reconnects in that time frame, brain dead cured. If the player doesn't reconnect, then that char is "lost" somehow. Could always go with the classic futuristic sci-fi explanation of genetic malformities that express in exposure to the heightened radiation of a space station (not everyone has them and they cannot be predicted). Such a disease is characterized by an episode of catatonic schizophrenia, and sometimes it is followed by heart failure (and death).
A persistent mode would have its own set of challenges for the players to overcome as separate from the sorts of challenges that round-based mode would have.
Keeping that in mind, it sounds like the preference is to focus on round mode.
Given round mode (short time frame), what should the goal be? I was a little unclear about exactly what SS13 does in round mode, if the ship is randomly damaged at the start, or if it starts out perfect and griefer challenges must be overcome before "the shuttle arrives." I'm also unclear about what the importance is for this shuttle.
Option 1. There are fixed game modes (such as AI Goes Insane or Traitor) which can be voted on and work very much like SS13. There are explicit end times (which are presented as the emergency shuttle departing).
Option 2. Missions are given and/or environmental effects happen, which basically result in the game modes shown. The difference is that, rather than being hard coded scenarios, it might be possible for the AI go to batshit while two traitors are trying to take the ship. Instead of using arbitrary end times, the game would be setup so that the inevitability of environmental effects destroying the station become guaranteed as people can't work to repair the ship against them. Either everybody dies from the station being destroyed (because the station isn't being maintained) or the person/group that accomplishes goals (to the exclusion of others' goals) wins.
Thoughts?
(I'll save Nine some time and effort from debunking option 2 by assuming he emphatically chooses Option 1)