As I said in the wrong thread, Rym would probably get in trouble for sending Goatse around the Financial district, probably for distributing non-title 18 pornography.
I am in the process of becoming one with my iPad. I'm lying here on the couch dictating this thread post via Dragon dictate. This has become my companion computer and gradually I shall integrate myself into the memory of the iPad. I liked Scott's comment about using tools as an extension of the body. If that's the case then the iPad is the first up toward cyberization.
I'm a little surprised that Rym and Scott didn't hit on the idea of non-permanent death as presented in Cory Doctorow's Down & Out in the Magic Kingdom, where your consciousness is backed up periodically, and then uploaded to a cloned body upon the death or permanent incapacitation of your current body.
I'm a little surprised that Rym and Scott didn't hit on the idea of non-permanent death as presented in Cory Doctorow'sDown & Out in the Magic Kingdom, where your consciousness is backed up periodically, and then uploaded to a cloned body upon the death or permanent incapacitation of your current body.
They might not have read the book. Unlike Whuffie, it's not a concept that comes up from that particular book that often.
That's true. It's the first place my brain goes when discussions of transhuman-ish life extension comes up, and I know that Scott, at least, was familiar with the concept from playing FreeMarket. Just projection on my part, I'll admit.
However, I think that the idea has some implications that add a lot to the discussion. For example, if degradation of mental acuity due to aging is a problem, it stands to reason that it's a physical problem - your brain is breaking down like the rest of your body does as you age. Would this problem be solved if you were restored from a backup into a "younger" clone of yourself?
Yes, but then you would also lose your experiences. I guess if you could combine your experiences into a younger backup, that would be the best of both worlds, though. Otherwise, what's the point of going back, unless you just die.
I guess if you could combine your experiences into a younger backup, that would be the best of both worlds, though.
That is how it's presented in Down and out - The clone can be whatever you like, and the brain backup is literally the latest backup of your brain. You can backup to a younger version of yourself, or even put your brain in storage, and be revived later on. People essentially live for as long as they want, in the novel, because they just keep backing up and restoring to new bodies - to the point where murder is practically the same level as jaywalking.
All you lose, is the time between your last backup and when you died - a variable, but usually small amount of time. There are even people who desire this, and go back to a backup that they did before things they don't want to remember.
Sure, but we lose experiences all the time. Human memory is incredibly unreliable. The only real problem is that you'd lose whatever short-term memories you had between your previous backup and your death, but, then, that could be mitigated by backing up on a regular basis.
Wouldn't your brain still age? After all, the aging of your brain and hence degradation of mental acuity is part of what defines you, and so your backup would still retain the symptoms of aging.
Wouldn't your brain still age? After all, the aging of your brain and hence degradation of mental acuity is part of what defines you, and so your backup would still retain the symptoms of aging.
Not really - Most people in the novel make very regular backups, it's portrayed that having less than a daily backup is rare, and you essentially have a whole host of implants snaking through your brain, so one would assume that it makes sense, with such easily available cloning tech(if someone dies, they're generally out only 24 to 48 hours while a new body is flash-grown) that the implants would monitor the state of the meat, and when the meat started to falter, you immediately put yourself into a new body - it's also a book where full comprehensive medical care is universally available, and the only currency is social currency, the aforementioned whuffie. I suppose your brain would age, but how much of a chance it got to age would be at your choice.
The end of the book rather neatly dodges the question, I think, but to give away much more would be a pretty major spoiler.
Yeah, but much of your overall mental and physical ability is based on the age of your physical body. I'm 31, so, I'm technically not as sharp as I was at, say, 23. If I back up my 31 year old self, then upload that into an effectively 23 year-old brain, then I get that capacity that I lost due to aging back. I'm not gaining back any memories that have degraded - they're gone - but I do get the capacity to experience more, with less degradation overall. Theoretically, you could make an initial backup at an optimal physical and mental state, and, with regular backups, remain optimal all the time by just having your current body killed and your backup loaded into another clone in that state.
If you remove the degradation, you're no longer "you" - you're a different person, though. I don't see how you can separate your self from the physical degradation of your brain.
If you remove the degradation, you're no longer "you" - you're a different person, though. I don't see how you can separate your self from the physical degradation of your brain.
True, but your consciousness wouldn't notice any difference - as far as you knew you had always been this way. Unless there is a second "you" in existence at any one time (a la the teleporter/copier from The Prestige, or in the event a backup is restored to a new body without the original being destroyed), there's no way to know the difference. The only way any difference could be perceived is by the observations of a third party being related to you, or the realization that more time has passed than expected since you last "woke up".
A couple good books that have plot points that hinge around humanity's ability to clone themselves and restore memories include Voice of the Whirlwind by Walter Jon Williams and Altered Carbon by Richard K. Morgan. The former is a cyberpunk novel where the protagonist is restored but there is a fifteen year gap in his memory. Cloning and restoration is expensive, so it's not something everyone does every day. He finds out he was murdered, and needs to know who wanted him dead so he can avoid getting killed again. The latter is a cyberpunk/hard boiled crime novel where the protagonist is a private detective hired by a very rich methuselah (someone who has been alive a very long time thanks to the cloning/sleeving process) to find out who murdered said 'meth and made it look like a suicide. I'd highly recommend both.
What interests me about these novels is that the characters rarely actually care about the whole "Is it me, or isn't it?" issue. It's just whoop, new body, away we go.
If you remove the degradation, you're no longer "you" - you're a different person, though. I don't see how you can separate your self from the physical degradation of your brain.
Really? Am I somehow less "me" than I was at 23? How about 27? How about yesterday?
Here's an analogy - you've got an old hard drive that's starting to have problems because of bad sectors, so you make an offline backup of your data. Then you buy a new hard drive - probably one with more capacity - and you load your backed-up files onto it. Does that change the nature of the data?
Here's an analogy - you've got an old hard drive that's starting to have problems because of bad sectors, so you make an offline backup of your data. Then you buy a new hard drive - probably one with more capacity - and you load your backed-up files onto it. Does that change the nature of the data?
In the case of the human brain, the data itself is so highly coupled with the individual physical structure that they are effectively indistinguishable. At least with binary data, the underlying mechanism of storage is irrelevant. This is (effectively) not the case with our brains, and likely will not be until we can fully abstract every possible aspect of a brain's function, perfectly recreating the abstraction via different physical media.
Yeah, but in FreeMarket it's a central theme, and in Paranoia it's an excuse to keep playing after getting turned into a smoking pair of boots for being mutant commie scum.
Yeah, but in FreeMarket it's a central theme, and in Paranoia it's an excuse to keep playing after getting turned into a smoking pair of boots for being mutant commie scum.
If continuing play after being turned into a smoking pair of boots for being mutant commie scum isn't the central theme of Paranoia, then what is?
Also, if you play dark + serious dystopian Paranoia, it's a whole 'nother story.
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Sees no reason to exterminate this thread.
Daleks, be warned. You have declared war upon the Cybermen.
However, I think that the idea has some implications that add a lot to the discussion. For example, if degradation of mental acuity due to aging is a problem, it stands to reason that it's a physical problem - your brain is breaking down like the rest of your body does as you age. Would this problem be solved if you were restored from a backup into a "younger" clone of yourself?
All you lose, is the time between your last backup and when you died - a variable, but usually small amount of time. There are even people who desire this, and go back to a backup that they did before things they don't want to remember.
The end of the book rather neatly dodges the question, I think, but to give away much more would be a pretty major spoiler.
A couple good books that have plot points that hinge around humanity's ability to clone themselves and restore memories include Voice of the Whirlwind by Walter Jon Williams and Altered Carbon by Richard K. Morgan. The former is a cyberpunk novel where the protagonist is restored but there is a fifteen year gap in his memory. Cloning and restoration is expensive, so it's not something everyone does every day. He finds out he was murdered, and needs to know who wanted him dead so he can avoid getting killed again. The latter is a cyberpunk/hard boiled crime novel where the protagonist is a private detective hired by a very rich methuselah (someone who has been alive a very long time thanks to the cloning/sleeving process) to find out who murdered said 'meth and made it look like a suicide. I'd highly recommend both.
Here's an analogy - you've got an old hard drive that's starting to have problems because of bad sectors, so you make an offline backup of your data. Then you buy a new hard drive - probably one with more capacity - and you load your backed-up files onto it. Does that change the nature of the data?
Also, if you play dark + serious dystopian Paranoia, it's a whole 'nother story.