I think mankind is more likely in our lifetime to use genetics manipulation to extend human life and abilities, than we are to have full cyberization. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 20-years we see made-to-order organic organs. Although we may see some small cyberization, rather than full body cyberization. So maybe computers attached to our brains or a neural interface with computers. Sensors attached to our hearts to detach heart problems or even contacts that allows computer images in our eyes.
Time | Notes ---------+---------------------------------------------------------- 00:00:00 | Intro 00:00:28 | News & Discussion | - Corporate e-mail hijinks | - Using e-mail, reply-to-all, and filters | - Apple WWDC Commentary | - Oh snap, Farmville on the iPhone! | - iPhone v4 and Rym's reluctance to upgrade anything | - Android fragmentation | - Phone software and the agility of manufacturers | - iAds 00:30:12 | Things of the Day | - Rym - Wake-Up Pranks | - Scott - Wicked-cool SSH tools 00:37:57 | Main Topic | - Cyber replacements | - Consciousness transfer - is it really you? | - A tangent on racquetball | - Decline in brain usage | - Transfer to a cyber brain - make your humanity into data | - Buying yourself a new, better body - which one would you get? 01:11:42 | Outro
I didn't see this anywhere, but what about the concept of maturing and continuing to develop a dynamic self as time passes? Would the backup be a completely static representation of you at the moment of creation and remain as such, only accumulating experiences. Is maturity determined by the sum total of our experiences or are there organic components that will need to be simulated and copied over into the cyber-self?
When I started listening to this episode I instantaneously started thinking about the manga of "Battle Angel Alita", specially the part when Scrym started talking about using a cyberbrain, with the only different that in the manga no one asked them if they wanted their brains removed :O
I'm pondering how awesome "multi-core" processing would be in a giant system running my mind. I could generate dozens of threads of my own consciousness and argue philosophical notions with myself!
That's interesting, because the brain itself is massively parallel, but it's essentially impossible to see your consciousness as anything but a single thread.
That's interesting, because the brain itself is massively parallel, but it's essentially impossible to see your consciousness as anything but a single thread.
Well, it's the Steppenwolf problem. The man who can see himself as two separate beings is infinitely ahead of those who see themselves as one being, but he's still infinitely wrong.
That's interesting, because the brain itself is massively parallel, but it's essentially impossible to see your consciousness as anything but a single thread.
Totally. The brain works more like a winch winding a cord: too many threads wound too tightly to separate. I think one of the big jumps to be made before a brain upload becomes possible will be to unravel the cord, to figure out how and where the threads meet, and more importantly, how we can manipulate them. It sounds like Dune, and in a lot of ways, it is, but its the jump from involuntary movements to total mastery of bodily processes. Although, I don't think Herbert had it right. You'll need some chipping here and there, some new wiring to allow you to visualize and manipulate the immensely complex systems at your disposal.
I haven't quite finished this episode yet, but I was disappointed that they jumped away from the concept of cyborgs so quickly. Or rather, cyborg parts.
When trying to come up with a modern day example, they overlooked cochlear implants - a device used to replicate a human sense. While hearing is certainly one of the least complicated senses (in my mind touch<hearing<taste<sight, although that's probably wrong since we can't do touch yet), this does put us on the road of bionic neural-transmitting implants.
I'm willing to let advertisers hack in and do market research on what I look at all day, as long as I get my bionic eyes! (it is possible that Neuromancer had a large impact on my when I was young).
Shit.. Accidental HTML truncated my post. Reminder to self: it's not a less than sign unless you put in a space.
Anyway. The gist of my elongated lost post was that I want my bionic eyes from Neuromancer and if they can be hacked by marketing companies who spy on what I look at all day - so be it!
I just listened to this today and realized the whole debate you guys had about making multiple copies of yourself is the exact concept explored in the 7th Son trilogy by J.C. Hutchins. You might enjoy reading that.
I listened to this not too long ago. Your main points are contingent on a few things:
1) The human consciousness is immutable and not transferable like, say, a piece of software is. At present, with our current knowledge of the human brain, yes, your point that a separate but equal consciousness is created as soon as a copy of your brain is brought online, is possible. In Ghost In the Shell the consciousness is transferred between the two media. Spoiler Motoko Kusanagi has to get a fresh cyber body, and at the clinic she goes to sleep in the old body and wakes up in the new body. /Spoiler Maybe at some point in the near future we discover just how the brain and consciousness works, such that we can figure out how to transfer the same solipsistic consciousness between media.
2) You're assuming the data that makes up a person's memories, thoughts, and feelings are also immutable and not transferable. The way you described it, in computer terms, you make a copy of the data onto the new media and then delete the original. The way I'm thinking it could be done is more like cut/paste (which could just be "make a copy and delete the original" for all I know as I am not a CS major). That way seems more like it would also transfer that solipsistic consciousness to the new brain and therefore you could go to sleep in your old body and wake up in your new body.
SpoilerMotoko Kusanagi has to get a fresh cyber body, and at the clinic she goes to sleep in the old body and wakes up in the new body./Spoiler
Actually, you see in the manga, someone having their spinal column and brain swapped into a new body.
When it comes to manipulating human conciousness, I'm more interested in the abstract things people will do, such as creating clusters of conciousness where there are no defined individuals.
Wouldn't cyberization/cloning/biotech organs be very expensive? Wouldn't it be so prohibitive that the decsion to get it would be as major a financial decision as buying a house? Are we going to see an overclass of perfect immortals and an underclass of people doing menial labor and selling their organs/tissues just to survive?
Are we going to see an overclass of perfect immortals and an underclass of people doing menial labor and selling their organs/tissues just to survive?
At first, probably. At least, until flesh humans are entirely replaced (excluding ideological permanent holdout communities).
Then that's all well and good if you're rich. Are you saying that the majority of people are going to be marginalized at first? Will Bill Gates and Arnold Schwarzenegger be perfectly formed immortals while all the rest of us (except me, of course) suffer and die, becoming more and more marginalized as the best jobs go to the people with cyber implants, creating the Catch-22 of "can't get a good job without being cyberized and can't get cyberized without lots of money from a good job?" I don't think I want to live in a world in which George W. Bush is a cyberized immortal. Actually, though, would cyberization make him less of a contemptible dumbass? Maybe cyberized,immortal GWB wouldn't be so bad if the cyberization could fix his dumbass quotient.
Should we all start savings accounts/CDs/IRAs for this eventuality now in order to be able to pay for this stuff? It's not going to be any fun to be a cyber/immortal have-not.
Or is it already too late to prepare? Will we see this happening in the next 5-10 years?
What happens if you can pay, but your spouse doesn't want to be a cyberized immortal?
To skip a bit, I do believe that the long-term path of humanity is a complete shedding of our, well, humanity in exchange for a self-engineered manifestation of our selves as we see them.
while all the rest of us (except me, of course) suffer and die, becoming more and more marginalized as the best jobs go to the people with cyber implants, creating the Catch-22 of "can't get a good job without being cyberized and can't get cyberized without lots of money from a good job?"
This is where the whole "sold your soul to the Weyland-Yutani-Mitsubishi-Microsoft megacorporation to pay for the operation" plotline kicks in and you're essentially an indentured servant for eternity or until someone hacks their way out.
Are we going to see an overclass of perfect immortals and an underclass of people doing menial labor and selling their organs/tissues just to survive?
At first, probably. At least, until flesh humans are entirely replaced (excluding ideological permanent holdout communities).
Then that's all well and good if you're rich. Are you saying that the majority of people are going to be marginalized at first? Will Bill Gates and Arnold Schwarzenegger be perfectly formed immortals while all the rest of us (except me, of course) suffer and die, becoming more and more marginalized as the best jobs go to the people with cyber implants, creating the Catch-22 of "can't get a good job without being cyberized and can't get cyberized without lots of money from a good job?" I don't think I want to live in a world in which George W. Bush is a cyberized immortal. Actually, though, would cyberization make him less of a contemptible dumbass? Maybe cyberized,immortal GWB wouldn't be so bad if the cyberization could fix his dumbass quotient.
Should we all start savings accounts/CDs/IRAs for this eventuality now in order to be able to pay for this stuff? It's not going to be any fun to be a cyber/immortal have-not.
Or is it already too late to prepare? Will we see this happening in the next 5-10 years?
What happens if you can pay, but your spouse doesn't want to be a cyberized immortal?
To skip a bit, I do believe that the long-term path of humanity is a complete shedding of our, well,humanityin exchange for a self-engineered manifestation of our selves as we see them.
while all the rest of us (except me, of course) suffer and die, becoming more and more marginalized as the best jobs go to the people with cyber implants, creating the Catch-22 of "can't get a good job without being cyberized and can't get cyberized without lots of money from a good job?"
This is where the whole "sold your soul to the Weyland-Yutani-Mitsubishi-Microsoft megacorporation to pay for the operation" plotline kicks in and you're essentially an indentured servant for eternity or until someone hacks their way out.
You all should read Broken AngelsAltered Carbon by Richard Morgan. Right away.
Derp. I meant Altered Carbon, but I've been meaning to buy Broken Angels. Should have proofread that.
Either way, Altered Carbon is fucking fantastic, and explores some really interest elements of cyberized consciousnesses and an always-connected world that few others have.
Derp. I meant Altered Carbon, but I've been meaning to buy Broken Angels. Should have proofread that.
Either way,Altered Carbonis fucking fantastic, and explores some really interest elements of cyberized consciousnesses and an always-connected world that few others have.
And is predicated on the idea that nobody has a Carbonite account in the future. Overlook that plot hole, and others, and you can have a lot of fun with it.
What you'll probably see is a situation like Repo Man. Those that can't afford cyberization straight up will get loans for them, and then work however long it takes to pay that loan off. Of course that's also predicated on the idea that 1. hospitals and clinics that would do augmentations are still private enterprises, and 2. any company that makes augmentations is also a private enterprise. Although, as shortsighted as human governments tend to be, there still might be the issue of having an immortal upper class and a mortal, or less-than-immortal under class.
Derp. I meant Altered Carbon, but I've been meaning to buy Broken Angels. Should have proofread that.
Either way,Altered Carbonis fucking fantastic, and explores some really interest elements of cyberized consciousnesses and an always-connected world that few others have.
And is predicated on the idea that nobody has a Carbonite account in the future. Overlook that plot hole, and others, and you can have a lot of fun with it.
Yeah, however, the idea of a future Carbonite account being a plot hole can flawed given that rogue AIs have near-infinite computing power in that universe. They could just hack the shit out of that in seconds.
It does have its problems though, like lots of great sci-fi works. Those flaws don't invalidate the really cool conceptual ideas in the book.
Comments
Geeknights 20100607 - Cyberization
Expanded Show Notes - Show Run Time: 1:12:41
Time | Notes
---------+----------------------------------------------------------
00:00:00 | Intro
00:00:28 | News & Discussion
| - Corporate e-mail hijinks
| - Using e-mail, reply-to-all, and filters
| - Apple WWDC Commentary
| - Oh snap, Farmville on the iPhone!
| - iPhone v4 and Rym's reluctance to upgrade anything
| - Android fragmentation
| - Phone software and the agility of manufacturers
| - iAds
00:30:12 | Things of the Day
| - Rym - Wake-Up Pranks
| - Scott - Wicked-cool SSH tools
00:37:57 | Main Topic
| - Cyber replacements
| - Consciousness transfer - is it really you?
| - A tangent on racquetball
| - Decline in brain usage
| - Transfer to a cyber brain - make your humanity into data
| - Buying yourself a new, better body - which one would you get?
01:11:42 | Outro
I want to be a Von Neumann probe.
When trying to come up with a modern day example, they overlooked cochlear implants - a device used to replicate a human sense. While hearing is certainly one of the least complicated senses (in my mind touch<hearing<taste<sight, although that's probably wrong since we can't do touch yet), this does put us on the road of bionic neural-transmitting implants.
I'm willing to let advertisers hack in and do market research on what I look at all day, as long as I get my bionic eyes! (it is possible that Neuromancer had a large impact on my when I was young).
Anyway. The gist of my elongated lost post was that I want my bionic eyes from Neuromancer and if they can be hacked by marketing companies who spy on what I look at all day - so be it!
1) The human consciousness is immutable and not transferable like, say, a piece of software is. At present, with our current knowledge of the human brain, yes, your point that a separate but equal consciousness is created as soon as a copy of your brain is brought online, is possible. In Ghost In the Shell the consciousness is transferred between the two media. Spoiler Motoko Kusanagi has to get a fresh cyber body, and at the clinic she goes to sleep in the old body and wakes up in the new body. /Spoiler Maybe at some point in the near future we discover just how the brain and consciousness works, such that we can figure out how to transfer the same solipsistic consciousness between media.
2) You're assuming the data that makes up a person's memories, thoughts, and feelings are also immutable and not transferable. The way you described it, in computer terms, you make a copy of the data onto the new media and then delete the original. The way I'm thinking it could be done is more like cut/paste (which could just be "make a copy and delete the original" for all I know as I am not a CS major). That way seems more like it would also transfer that solipsistic consciousness to the new brain and therefore you could go to sleep in your old body and wake up in your new body.
When it comes to manipulating human conciousness, I'm more interested in the abstract things people will do, such as creating clusters of conciousness where there are no defined individuals.
Should we all start savings accounts/CDs/IRAs for this eventuality now in order to be able to pay for this stuff? It's not going to be any fun to be a cyber/immortal have-not.
Or is it already too late to prepare? Will we see this happening in the next 5-10 years?
What happens if you can pay, but your spouse doesn't want to be a cyberized immortal?
Either way, Altered Carbon is fucking fantastic, and explores some really interest elements of cyberized consciousnesses and an always-connected world that few others have.
It does have its problems though, like lots of great sci-fi works. Those flaws don't invalidate the really cool conceptual ideas in the book.