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Warhammer 40k: Dark Millenium

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  • Yeah. The "Limited Edition" models or whatever? They have commander kits, special HQ units, and so forth. I don't know that I see them for $25, but $15 - $18 for single special models is pretty common. $25 bucks usually gets you a full kit.
    Ah - I'm thinking of Australian Dollars, rather than US - there's a price bump on top of the conversion rate. Over here, I don't even bother to look at the price, I'm not buying.
  • edited June 2010
    Over here, I don't even bother to look at the price, I'm not buying.
    Yeah, I used to not look at the price. Now I can't ignore it.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • At least if you're buying minis you have something to show for it that is real arts and crafts that you made.

    It's not like you're playing Warhammer in tournaments or anything. You can use bootlegs or minis from other games and play with Warhammer rules. CCGs have the problem where you need the cards to all have the same backing, but you can just use basic lands and a magic marker. It actually might be more fun to play Warhammer with minis from other games because you get to paint a wide variety of cheaper minis instead of a bunch of nearly identical 40K guys.

    Also, buy used/stole Warhammer guys cheap.

    Also, if you are actually good at painting you can buy official ones, get all the fun of painting them, then sell the finished product online for a profit.
  • Also, buy used/stole Warhammer guys cheap.
    eBay is your friend for buying new armies.
    Also, if you are actually good at painting you can buy official ones, get all the fun of painting them, then sell the finished product online for a profit.
    There are a lot of people that do this, but their services are intensely expensive. It's worth it, though; some of the things these people can do with plastic is outright amazing.

    Yeah, a big part of the appeal of the wargame is the presence of high quality models. The electronic version loses a certain something.
  • It's just frustrating because there will never be a true Warhammer/40k video game which is just an electronic version of the table top game.
  • It's just frustrating because there will never be a true Warhammer/40k video game which is just an electronic version of the table top game.
    There isn't even an open source equivalent?
  • At least if you're buying minis you have something to show for it that is real arts and crafts that you made.

    It's not like you're playing Warhammer in tournaments or anything. You can use bootlegs or minis from other games and play with Warhammer rules. CCGs have the problem where you need the cards to all have the same backing, but you can just use basic lands and a magic marker. It actually might be more fun to play Warhammer with minis from other games because you get to paint a wide variety of cheaper minis instead of a bunch of nearly identical 40K guys.

    Also, buy used/stole Warhammer guys cheap.

    Also, if you are actually good at painting you can buy official ones, get all the fun of painting them, then sell the finished product online for a profit.
    You're missing the point still. IT'S NOT AN FPS. If I want the tabletop sort of experience, I'll play DoW. That's not what I want. I want an MMOFPS, sort of like Planetside but better, and before it was ruined by whiners. The fact that it's in the trappings of a world that I also happen to like is a bonus. Stop saying that all I want is a virtual version of a miniature tabletop game, it's not and you're being blindly reductionist and missing the point entirely. By your logic, video games are pointless because you can just use your imagination by putting your head on a table next to minis and going "PEW PEW PEW! I'm killin' yer dudes!"
  • It's just frustrating because there will never be a true Warhammer/40k video game which is just an electronic version of the table top game.
    There isn't even an open source equivalent?
    No.
  • It's just frustrating because there will never be a true Warhammer/40k video game which is just an electronic version of the table top game.
    There isn't even an open source equivalent?
    No.
    I would kill for the MegaMek equivalent of 40k, however Games Workshop is very good at the legal skills.
  • I would kill for the MegaMek equivalent of 40k, however Games Workshop is very good at the legal skills.
    I would encourage you to make one. Here are two reasons you should do it.

    We already mentioned the guy who made his own minis and was hired.

    The guys who made Blood Bowl made it illegally, were sued, and then were hired.

    Very likely if you made Warhammer 40K, the video game, you would be sued and hired.
  • I want an MMOFPS, sort of like Planetside but better, and before it was ruined by whiners.
    It's impossible. If you start increasing the number of players in an FPS server, it starts going down. You can raise the hardware horsepower of the server, but that gets expensive. You can decrease the number of players, but we already have that. The only other option, which is what Planetside did, is to decrease the precision of the game. A game with incredibly fast movement and precise aim will not work. It has to be a slow game, where aim is not precise, and big latency won't make a big difference.

    Due to advances in technology we already do have some games that are getting bigger. Tribes 2 had 50+ player maximums an the net code would run on a 56K modem. IIRC, there's a Battlefield game I've heard of that has 100+ players on a server, and you split up into squads. There's that Love FPS, which didn't live up to the potential, but can handle many many players per server.

    I can imagine a system architecture that would allow a gigantic FPS. Basically you would have a huge Battlefied, and would have a separate server for each part of the map, and players would seamlessly transfer from one server to another as they walk around. Would be really hard to make, but it's definitely technologically possible. You should also be able to do things like sniping into areas on other servers by being transparently connected to multiple servers simultaneously.

    Even if it is possible, it's so incredibly difficult to program and make it work, that nobody is going to do that level of work for a video game. For a scientific experiment on a supercomputer, they'll put in that work. For a video game, no.
  • I would kill for the MegaMek equivalent of 40k, however Games Workshop is very good at the legal skills. being overly litigious douchebags who squash every fan project out there, even if the product it is based on is no longer available, for fear of it being cheaper/more popular than their actual product.
    FTFY

    (For what it's worth, I too would kill for an equivalent of WH40k or straight-up WH that didn't use Vassal as its base)
  • I can imagine a system architecture that would allow a gigantic FPS. Basically you would have a huge Battlefied, and would have a separate server for each part of the map, and players would seamlessly transfer from one server to another as they walk around. Would be really hard to make, but it's definitely technologically possible. You should also be able to do things like sniping into areas on other servers by being transparently connected to multiple servers simultaneously.
    IIRC, this is how WWII Online works.
  • edited June 2010
    We already mentioned the guy who made his own minis and was hired.
    Correction - He didn't make his own, he outright bootlegged them and sold them, supporting himself by doing so - he had a self-supporting business selling bootleg figs. If they wanted to take him down legally, he would have had zero chance of winning - he was absolutely in the wrong. The only reason they hired him was that they essentially said "That guy is making a lot of money from something we're not doing. We want that money, what's the cheapest way to do that, and remove him from the market? Hire him."
    It was a smart business decision.

    Nowdays, you so much as look at them wrong, and then bend you over and take you like a drunk co-ed on spring break. It doesn't matter if you throw up. They just revel in the muscle contractions.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • Take the Mythic route. Before they acquired the license to make Warhammer Online, they were working on a game called Imperator. The premise was essentially the Roman Empire + epic space warfare, or in other, W40k. They simply made something similar, and essentially duplicated the unit types. The Romans were Space Marines, and they fought against an alien menace that approximated the Tyranids.

    Acquiring a license from GW is notoriously difficult. I'm not sure that they'd be interested in your little project; they'd be more likely to crush you mercilessly.
  • I'm not getting fooled by another mediocre MMO with a setting that I enjoy.
  • edited June 2010
    @Tech: Can anyone tell me the specific reasons they've been able to go after other mini-fig games? Surely they couldn't have patented the system involved. Can you patent instructions or do they count as factual?
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • I can imagine a system architecture that would allow a gigantic FPS. Basically you would have a huge Battlefied, and would have a separate server for each part of the map, and players would seamlessly transfer from one server to another as they walk around. Would be really hard to make, but it's definitely technologically possible. You should also be able to do things like sniping into areas on other servers by being transparently connected to multiple servers simultaneously.
    IIRC, this is how WWII Online works.
    Yup. No zones, to-scale Europe if I'm correct. The downside of WWIIOL was that the controls were horrendous. Sturmgrenadier got started in it though. Contrary to what Scott says, the technology and the software are there, it's a simple fact of no one putting the two together in the best possible manner. Planetside was pretty fantastic, and even though each continent was considered an instance they didn't feel like them. Do you really need to be on the same plane/instance/whatever as a guy who is out of range of your farthest firing weapon? What's the point in that?
  • Do you really need to be on the same plane/instance/whatever as a guy who is out of range of your farthest firing weapon? What's the point in that?
    Actually you need to be in the same plane as someone who is as far away as exactly TWICE the range of your furthest firing weapon. You aim at a guy with sniper rifle at max distance. Another guy you can't even see on the other side of the map picks him off first.
  • Can anyone tell me the specific reasons they've been able to go after other mini-fig games? Surely they couldn't have patented the system involved. Can you patent instructions or do they count as factual?
    I don't know if they can technically touch other systems that are out there (e.g. Warmachine/Hordes), but I've seen plenty of "rabble rabble" on the internet Re: GW issuing C&D;'s on anything that even remotely resembles their property.

    Examples:

    * Teardown's remake of Space Hulk for the PC. Space Hulk, as a boardgame, hadn't been re-released in years. The DOS/Amiga game was released in '93 and was essentially abandonware. Teardown took it upon themselves to start remaking it and were pretty well into the project when they were forced to take it down and remove all references to any GW IP. They did, scrubbed the graphics clean, and re-released it as Alien Assault. This was just in time for GW to re-release Space Hulk in 2009. What could have been a cool game that would have driven a lot of people to try the board game ended up being GW shooting the project out of the sky.

    * The Great BoardGameGeek Purge. BoardGameGeek is known for maintaining an archive of rules and add-ons for many games, both new and old. BGG received a letter from GW citing 4 files infringing IP policy. BGG removed the offending files and let GW know. GW responded acknowledging the action and asking that ANY other infringing items be removed (but wouldn't tell BGG what files were infringing). BGG basically had to do a blanket removal of GW-related files to avoid legal action and has slapped a ban on anyone uploading any GW-related stuff. There was much uproar on BGG and the fans over there are still smarting about it.

    * Bringing lawsuits against fansites. There's too many to count in this realm, so I'll cite one that made Slashdot. This one wasn't about the tabletop stuff, it hinged on Warhammer Online.

    The long and the short of it is that GW treats their fans so poorly it surprises me that they still have people buying their product. I highly believe that as desktop fabrication becomes cheaper and 3D scanning improves that we'll see a huge jump in people bootlegging GW's tabletop product, just because they can. :D
  • edited June 2010
    There has to be a way to compete with them directly and win. Heroclix did pretty well, so they don't have a complete lock on the world of miniatures games. Maybe making the ultimate turn-based miniatures game in video game form is the way to go.

    It will actually be a lot less difficult than Project DORF. Maybe with rules similar to Advance Wars... Wesnoth? Maybe make Advance Wars or Wesnoth tabletop versions? That could be cool. Advanced Wars on a table.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • The long and the short of it is that GW treats their fans so poorly it surprises me that they still have people buying their product.
    Well, the thing is, the actual product they produce is quite good. I've played every iteration of electronic Warhammer games you can imagine, and nothing really quite captures the spirit of the hobby. Thus, the actual physical game always has a market. If you just buy the game and play, you'll never run afoul of GW.
    Space Hulk, as a boardgame, hadn't been re-released in years.
    That's a complicated situation, because the game was kept alive in White Dwarf until the 4th edition of 40k. Also, while the original original video game was released in '93, there was another game made later using the Space Hulk IP. Irrespective of that, the board game (which was what Teardown was making into a video game) wasn't abandoned, and GW had already sold the video game licensing rights to THQ.

    I'm not saying that I think GW is great - they definitely over-reacted - but they also didn't beat up on Teardown for no reason. The BGG and WarhammerAlliance stuff, though, is totally dickish of them.
  • Maybe make Advance Wars or Wesnoth tabletop versions?
    Heroscape.
  • Maybe make Advance Wars or Wesnoth tabletop versions?
    Heroscape.
    Not quite. However, Heroscape is pretty popular and a digital version would do well.
  • edited June 2010
    Heroscape is pretty popular and a digital version would do well.
    Any Heroscape Computer Game... will be shut down unless they have Hasbro's seal of approval. I think it would be better then Magic Online.
    Post edited by Wyatt on
  • This leads me to a point that has been bothering me for awhile.

    People are just not very good at violating intellectual property laws. Here is a sure-fire way to make a Warhammer/Heroscape/etc. game that directly and balatantly infringes on the trademarks and copyrights, but never get caught or taken down.

    1) Don't ever put your name or other identifying mark anywhere on it. Never take credit for it. Ever.
    2) Only ever distribute anonymously, and use technologies like Bittorrent and Tor.
    3) Create an IRC channel, hosted on a server in some other country that doesn't care. People blatantly serve up child porn in IRC without being caught. It's like no authority knows to look there. This will be the only way you communicate. If you're uber paranoid, connect to it through Tor or whatever.
    4) Let other people who are not you setup fan sites and fan forums that have links to the torrent, or not, but simply discuss your game. There are many web sites out there with blatant download links for ROMs and shit. It's ok for those sites to exist for your game, as long as they can't be tied back to you in any way.
  • edited June 2010
    Actually you need to be in the same plane as someone who is as far away as exactly TWICE the range of your furthest firing weapon. You aim at a guy with sniper rifle at max distance. Another guy you can't even see on the other side of the map picks him off first.
    Makes sense. Still perfectly doable. Also, the chances that the exact situation would happen and have a dramatic effect on the overall game would be slim. For example, Planetside players were initially terrified that everyone would simply cloak and snipe. Granted, a good sniper can be a frustrating experience, but in the end, people noticed that sniping in a large environment is fucking hard. Also, one smart pilot will fill your face full of missile in no time if you're not careful. Planetside planets/continents had a very long range of vision that went well beyond the range of some weapons, and even a few artillery weapons that shot well out of sight. You could even set up some arty outside one friendly base and blow the hell out of another several game-miles away. This all worked relatively well despite having "instances" since each planet/continent could be captured entirely and locked down by a faction. I see no reason why WH40KDM couldn't work off similar technology and do just fine.
    Regardless, it's a bit of a moot point seeing as they're going to make it a not-shooting game and therefore pointless.
    Post edited by GreatTeacherMacRoss on
  • edited October 2011
    So there is some new news on this game, though it still appears it will be a non-FPS style game:
    Lots and lots of info and some speculation.
    While they are fleshing out the class system, an there will be PVP, it seems like it will not be a true FPS or even a true action game. I'm not sure how the gameplay will work, so I'm not very optimistic about it, but I'm still interested enough to see what they do.
    EDIT: Apparently there are going to be gameplay elements and a general 'feel' from the Space Marine game that was just released, and the engine is the DarkSiders 2/Space Marine engine as well. I think this nota looka so good.
    Post edited by GreatTeacherMacRoss on
  • These seem to be the bullet points specifically focused on how the gameplay will work.

    * Third person action, plays like Gears of War/Space Marine mixed together for shooting
    * Melee is more like Space Marine/Darksiders, with the target lock on
    * Left mouse uses the weapon in your character’s left hand, Right mouse uses the weapon in your character’s right hand
    * All abilities have a cooldown
    * Melee combos – dual wielding gives new moves
    * There is sprinting
    * Ranged weapons have infinite ammo, but there is reloading, overheating, venting, and reloading
    * Weapons rarely get to take full advantage of their range when inside… lots of cover and turning corners
    * A cover system is implemented.Waist high cover and standing cover.
    * Shooting mechanics will have aim assist
    * Similarly, melee attacks will lock on.
    * Abilities work similar to Warhammer Online. A common resource, then each class has a unique resource used with abilities.
  • Thanks for the summary Xefas.
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