After my now 3rd chlorophenol-laden batch, and considerable research, I've determined that it's the tap water that's the issue. Hypothetically, Campden tablets should eliminate the band-aid problem. I tried it in a glass of band-aid last night, and after about 15 minutes, the majority of the band-aid taste was gone. So, it does work post-process.
The wild yeast, unsurprisingly, is relatively phenolic: it's got a pleasantly spicy, clove-like taste, along with a nice fruitiness.
There are two problems with this, though. First, that highly phenolic character is also a contributor to the chlorophenol problem. I can minimize residual chloride in the water, but most brewers also pick yeasts with a more minimized phenol character to completely eliminate the problem in lighter styles.
The second problem is the tartness. It's a wild yeast, so it makes a tart beer that mellows out after, like, 8 months. This is bad for fast turnaround times.
So, I think the wild yeast needs to be relegated to strong styles that need to condition for a while, and for any forays into sour ales that I might make (I'm looking at you, George).
It also doesn't seem to do so well under frozen storage. I made 12 vials of the stuff last time, and I've wound up using 4 of those vials to make a 2.7 L starter. That's a lot, and they don't seem to be multiplying very vigorously.
Right now, I'm working on a parti-gyle brew, to recreate a late 16th-century beer. My prediction is that I'm going to get 3 gallons of what is effectively ESB, and 6 gallons of what is effectively an ordinary bitter. Given the issues I'm seeing with the wild yeast now, I think it's time to set the wild yeast aside and go with a proper brewer's yeast.
I'll use Wyeast 1968 - London ESB. This is the same was White Labs WLP002, and is the yeast strain used by Fuller's to make their cask-aged ESB. It should be as close as I can reasonably get to a period yeast.
tl;dr: I'm shelving the wild yeast and using it only for special projects. Time to get some brewer's yeast. Also, don't use tap water for anything in brewing. Not even for mixing with sanitizer. You're asking for headaches.
I had assumed you were using a bottled or purified source this whole time. ;^)
Well, purified water is bad for brewing. Ideally, you want hard water, because the minerals balance the pH of the mash.
Albany's tap water is perfect for pale ales all the way up to 12 SRM (the color of a coppery ESB). However, Albany also treats its water using chloramides, which is the problem. See, chloramides do the same thing that straight chlorine does, except without the taste or odor. Awesome, right? All the benefits of chlorinated water without the nasty taste.
Problem is, it's better to have straight chlorine in brewing water, because the chlorine is driven off during the boil. Chloramides, by contrast, are stable under boiling conditions, and so remain in the wort once you're finished boiling. Then, those chloramides react with the phenols produced by your yeast (and different yeasts produce different levels of phenols), and this produces chlorophenols, which give the beer a band-aid like taste.
The worst part is that the taste threshold for chlorophenol is really low, so this could easily be a very small problem. Like, the residual chloramide present in the water I used to mix my sanitizer solution. That could be enough to do it.
So this is an extra problem when using wild yeasts or any particularly phenolic yeast (like the one used by Weihenstephan). The water has to be virtually free of chloride in order for it to actually taste good afterwards. Campden is probably my best bet in that regard.
Ugh...WTF
Yeah man, I don't get it either, but I still owe George something tasty that he likes. A sour would probably fit that bill nicely.
If I theoretically wanted to start distilling for real, how safe wouldthat be? I don't mean a huge one in the woods but like one of those little pressure cooker stills.
If I theoretically wanted to start distilling for real, how safe wouldthat be? I don't mean a huge one in the woods but like one of those little pressure cooker stills.
Don't do it. That's my professional advice. You'll go fucking blind.
If I theoretically wanted to start distilling for real, how safe wouldthat be? I don't mean a huge one in the woods but like one of those little pressure cooker stills.
Don't do it. That's my professional advice. You'll go fucking blind.
For-real blind or "don't touch yourself or you'll go blind" blind?
I thought that was mainly from people using shitty equipment, and not moonshine in general.
It's a more technical process than other brewing, and adequate control is really only obtained through fairly expensive equipment. The odds of you fucking it up at home are pretty good.
Didn't you once say you've done home distillation? Or am I just assuming that as an Australian, you were born knowing how to make liquor?
No, I've most certainly done home distillation. I was just having a laugh with the Socrates thing.
However, I never said it was entirely legal, and I am entirely unsure of the legality in pretty much all US states. The parts of my equipment that I bought, it's all sold (admittedly, in homebrew shops) as Water purification and distillation equipment.
If I theoretically wanted to start distilling for real, how safe wouldthat be? I don't mean a huge one in the woods but like one of those little pressure cooker stills.
Don't do it. That's my professional advice. You'll go fucking blind.
For-real blind or "don't touch yourself or you'll go blind" blind?
For-real blind. Fusils need to be carefully stilled out, and you need some training or at least a good couple months of study before you can handle that, or else you'll fry your retinas. Now, that said, the best vodka I've ever tasted was some seriously icy smooth hooch made by a friend-of-a-friend for his 4H project. Your mileage will definitely vary.
Freeze-distill or something, if you must.
EDIT: Christ, I forgot about that super-yeast project. I need to revisit that.
Ok, so I stumbled on this stuff called Spike your juice which is basically a homebrew kit with yeast in crystal light packets. Its overpriced and everything, but the thing that caught my eye is that its only supposed to take around 48 hours to ferment, which seems crazy to me. That would be waaay more convenient for me right now, so do any of you know of any strains like that?
Could be a fast-fermenting strain based on a general-purpose yeast like Rogue's Pacman. Most general yeasts used by big time brewers now only take around 5 days of fermentation time; the majority of time spent developing a beer is aging it and doing other things to obtain your chosen flavor. You can just build an airlock and dump a packet of champaign yeast and nutrient into any old juice and get the same effect; that yeast is probably faster-acting or more expensive (or both) because it has yeast nutrient in the packets. The FAQ also says that you should reseal and leave it for additional time to get a stronger, drier brew.
Don't expect anything particularly worthwhile out of that, though. With any juice (with the exception of certain grape and apple juices), you're looking at a lot of pectin and other non-sucrose fermentation and (as a result) nasty hangovers. That said, this seems like an alright way to go to make a huge batch of mead, but you'd also need honey, a carboy, and sanitizer.
Well, I'm mainly looking for the fast fermentation. I want to try and get the most pure alcohol I can get right now. I'm going back to the most basic form of "Kilju", Finnish sugar wine, which I will then freeze distill. Since its just sugar and water, I don't really have to worry about anything else fermenting. I mainly just want something I can whip up quick for the weekend that isn't prison wine and is fairly cheap.
Freezejacking isn't quick, though. You're going to have to go through several progressive freezes, starting at around a two day freeze and getting towards ten, to get a significant amount of even 20% alcohol. At around 20%, you hit a conventional freeze distillation limit; companies that exceed that point (like BrewDog) do multi-step fermentations with purpose-bred yeasts and freeze distill using something more like an ethanol/dry ice bath.
I would consider getting a $10 handle of gutrot vodka and then running it through a Brita pitcher around six times, if all you're looking for is a decent, cheap party drink. You'll spend less time and money that way.
ALSO: I'm curious as to how Operation Snickers Wine is going.
Well, with this method I'm mainly doing it so that I don't have to bother buying alcohol as much since I don't turn 21 for a few months. And I'm ok with it only getting 20%. I'm not looking to make straight-up liquor right now. I've tried the cheap vodka with a brita pitcher method, but the filters don't last very long that way so its really not much cheaper in the long run.
And I would totally buy a bottle of that Snickers wine...if it didn't taste god-awful.
Freeze Distilling? I can see this ending poorly. You have to be very careful with freeze distilling - You get some fusel alcohol with regular distilling, but freeze distilling is even worse.
As Pete might say, it's a substance containing 1-propanol, 2-propanol, butanol, amyl alcohol, and furfural, which has not only may have a negative effect on one's health, but depending on one's preferred drink, also the flavors. Or, as I would say, the shit that makes you go blind and your rum taste like paint thinner. The latter being the far more serious condition.
HOWEVER - you can get yourself a nice bit of lab equipment called a reflux or a reflux still. You'll be able to get most of the Fusel out that way. You know you've got too much fusel when you dip your fingers and it feels oily to the touch, or your product starts going white or milky. I've also noticed - if you keep an eye on the temperature - that the temperature will start going mental later on, that's a good time to stop - I keep an eye on the temperature, but to be honest, that's mostly just an effort to prevent spoiling as little of the batch as possible, since I rarely brew neutral spirits, I go by taste, feel and smell, not temp.
Toss your first ten or fifteen mls or so. It's all metho, tastes like shit and will give you a fucking brutal hangover if you leave it in. Oh, and it'll kill you if you drink too much, so fucking don't. Not even strained through bread, that's stupid and doesn't work.
Separate into different containers. That way, you can refine your process easier, and if you start going bad with it, you won't end up with the whole batch ruined.
I don't like this idea, though - Distilling and brewing are as much arts as sciences, and they require time and patience.
I advise you either start constructing yourself some charcoal and cotton filters - cheaper than brita pitcher filters - or you learn to like the taste of Goon. Leave the still and the brew-cans for later.
Also, reflux condensers are mad expensive; prone to breakage; and, in not-unlikely event that your reflux solution (a small cauldron of boiling oils and alcohols) explodes, they basically shoot frags of hideously sharp and strong borosilicate glass everywhere. They also have the downside of being illegal in some states, since they're a prerequisite for cooking some drugs.
I'm with Churba. Just learn how to pack your own filters; you can get the stuff at an aquarium store. You really need some serious chemistry knowledge to know how to distill properly. Commercial breweries that freeze distill test their products to make sure that they're not selling poison.
Heh, I remember my first booze filter. Made out of an old sari, some filter floss, a bit of activated charcoal, a stainless pipe, two stainless funnels, a big washer, some Marine JB weld, some plumbing fittings, a five quart stainless auto funnel.
Yeah...Pete and WUB are more the scientists, I'm more the "You won't go blind, I don't think" type.
Well, right now I'm only freeze distilling to get it up to a decent strength. Not enough to concentrate it to any dangerous levels. I may try building a decent filter though. Depends on how much I brew, I suppose.
I point out again, this does not seem like a good idea, however, I'm not going to stop you.
I do advise, however, getting a cheap homebrew kit. For a bit over a hundred bucks, you can put together a kit and get ingredients that will allow you to make up litres upon litres of beer very cheap. A single coopers brew can makes 20 litres, and that kit has pretty much everything you'll need to keep yourself well (If not over) supplied with beer till you turn 21. And it's a hell of a lot safer, and you're getting quality(well, hopefully) beer for $1.92 a standard bottle(341 ml, or roughly 12 ounces), which is a hell of a lot cheaper than the usual prices.
Sure, not cheaper than those juice-to-booze kits, but it's really a hell of a lot better. And plus, who do you want to be - the dude with the dodgy fruit-juice wine, or the dude that makes his own good beer?
My advice as someone with nearly enough credits for a chemistry and a bio degree, as well as a thorough knowledge of human biochemistry, is to not do this. Building your own filter and filtering bottom-shelf stuff is significantly cheaper and less risky. The convenience of having regular access to alcohol before you're 21 isn't worth your sight. Fusels aren't your only worry, methanol is too; careful stilling that you are likely incapable of is the only way to ensure that you're not concentrating enough methanol (which occurs in most fermentations, though I'm not sure if it's a side-effect of simple sucrose/water fermentation) to destroy the optic nerve or kill you outright.
Just make sugar wine and drink that. It's optimally 17% before jacking it; do not fuck around with poison just to get buzzed faster from less liquid. Alternately, bottle beer. Neither of these option will have you risking blindness or death, and both are pretty cool. Brewing beer is far more gentlemanly than brewing kilju, though.
Seriously, dude - Pete and WUB know the science of it, and Pete and I are experienced brewers/distillers. We're not telling you this because we want to keep a monopoly or anything mad like that, we're trying to stop you from putting yourself in the hospital.
We're not saying don't make your own booze - we're saying don't do it that way, do it this much better, tastier and safer way, because otherwise it will all end in tears. And by tears, I mean blindness and death. This is not a case where we want to let you make your own mistakes, because this is a case where your mistakes can have permanent and serious consequences, or even kill you. No joke, as little as Ten milliliters can send you blind, that's about two teaspoons, give or take, or just over 0.3 ounces. 60 Milliliters - four tablespoons, or two ounces - is enough to kill you.
I am not fucking you about here, seriously, I advise you with the utmost strength to not do this, and use one of the safer methods we've laid out.
Comments
After my now 3rd chlorophenol-laden batch, and considerable research, I've determined that it's the tap water that's the issue. Hypothetically, Campden tablets should eliminate the band-aid problem. I tried it in a glass of band-aid last night, and after about 15 minutes, the majority of the band-aid taste was gone. So, it does work post-process.
The wild yeast, unsurprisingly, is relatively phenolic: it's got a pleasantly spicy, clove-like taste, along with a nice fruitiness.
There are two problems with this, though. First, that highly phenolic character is also a contributor to the chlorophenol problem. I can minimize residual chloride in the water, but most brewers also pick yeasts with a more minimized phenol character to completely eliminate the problem in lighter styles.
The second problem is the tartness. It's a wild yeast, so it makes a tart beer that mellows out after, like, 8 months. This is bad for fast turnaround times.
So, I think the wild yeast needs to be relegated to strong styles that need to condition for a while, and for any forays into sour ales that I might make (I'm looking at you, George).
It also doesn't seem to do so well under frozen storage. I made 12 vials of the stuff last time, and I've wound up using 4 of those vials to make a 2.7 L starter. That's a lot, and they don't seem to be multiplying very vigorously.
Right now, I'm working on a parti-gyle brew, to recreate a late 16th-century beer. My prediction is that I'm going to get 3 gallons of what is effectively ESB, and 6 gallons of what is effectively an ordinary bitter. Given the issues I'm seeing with the wild yeast now, I think it's time to set the wild yeast aside and go with a proper brewer's yeast.
I'll use Wyeast 1968 - London ESB. This is the same was White Labs WLP002, and is the yeast strain used by Fuller's to make their cask-aged ESB. It should be as close as I can reasonably get to a period yeast.
tl;dr: I'm shelving the wild yeast and using it only for special projects. Time to get some brewer's yeast. Also, don't use tap water for anything in brewing. Not even for mixing with sanitizer. You're asking for headaches.
Albany's tap water is perfect for pale ales all the way up to 12 SRM (the color of a coppery ESB). However, Albany also treats its water using chloramides, which is the problem. See, chloramides do the same thing that straight chlorine does, except without the taste or odor. Awesome, right? All the benefits of chlorinated water without the nasty taste.
Problem is, it's better to have straight chlorine in brewing water, because the chlorine is driven off during the boil. Chloramides, by contrast, are stable under boiling conditions, and so remain in the wort once you're finished boiling. Then, those chloramides react with the phenols produced by your yeast (and different yeasts produce different levels of phenols), and this produces chlorophenols, which give the beer a band-aid like taste.
The worst part is that the taste threshold for chlorophenol is really low, so this could easily be a very small problem. Like, the residual chloramide present in the water I used to mix my sanitizer solution. That could be enough to do it.
So this is an extra problem when using wild yeasts or any particularly phenolic yeast (like the one used by Weihenstephan). The water has to be virtually free of chloride in order for it to actually taste good afterwards. Campden is probably my best bet in that regard. Yeah man, I don't get it either, but I still owe George something tasty that he likes. A sour would probably fit that bill nicely.
But if you really want to know, ask Churba.
EDIT - Also, I'm pretty sure you'd want a license to do that. I'm not advocating you do anything illegal.
However, I never said it was entirely legal, and I am entirely unsure of the legality in pretty much all US states. The parts of my equipment that I bought, it's all sold (admittedly, in homebrew shops) as Water purification and distillation equipment.
Freeze-distill or something, if you must.
EDIT: Christ, I forgot about that super-yeast project. I need to revisit that.
Maybe in the future if I decide to actually distill, I'll do it without actually consuming it for a while until I can get it right.
Don't expect anything particularly worthwhile out of that, though. With any juice (with the exception of certain grape and apple juices), you're looking at a lot of pectin and other non-sucrose fermentation and (as a result) nasty hangovers. That said, this seems like an alright way to go to make a huge batch of mead, but you'd also need honey, a carboy, and sanitizer.
I would consider getting a $10 handle of gutrot vodka and then running it through a Brita pitcher around six times, if all you're looking for is a decent, cheap party drink. You'll spend less time and money that way.
ALSO: I'm curious as to how Operation Snickers Wine is going.
And I would totally buy a bottle of that Snickers wine...if it didn't taste god-awful.
As Pete might say, it's a substance containing 1-propanol, 2-propanol, butanol, amyl alcohol, and furfural, which has not only may have a negative effect on one's health, but depending on one's preferred drink, also the flavors. Or, as I would say, the shit that makes you go blind and your rum taste like paint thinner. The latter being the far more serious condition.
HOWEVER - you can get yourself a nice bit of lab equipment called a reflux or a reflux still. You'll be able to get most of the Fusel out that way. You know you've got too much fusel when you dip your fingers and it feels oily to the touch, or your product starts going white or milky. I've also noticed - if you keep an eye on the temperature - that the temperature will start going mental later on, that's a good time to stop - I keep an eye on the temperature, but to be honest, that's mostly just an effort to prevent spoiling as little of the batch as possible, since I rarely brew neutral spirits, I go by taste, feel and smell, not temp.
Toss your first ten or fifteen mls or so. It's all metho, tastes like shit and will give you a fucking brutal hangover if you leave it in. Oh, and it'll kill you if you drink too much, so fucking don't. Not even strained through bread, that's stupid and doesn't work.
Separate into different containers. That way, you can refine your process easier, and if you start going bad with it, you won't end up with the whole batch ruined.
I don't like this idea, though - Distilling and brewing are as much arts as sciences, and they require time and patience.
I advise you either start constructing yourself some charcoal and cotton filters - cheaper than brita pitcher filters - or you learn to like the taste of Goon. Leave the still and the brew-cans for later.
I'm with Churba. Just learn how to pack your own filters; you can get the stuff at an aquarium store. You really need some serious chemistry knowledge to know how to distill properly. Commercial breweries that freeze distill test their products to make sure that they're not selling poison.
Yeah...Pete and WUB are more the scientists, I'm more the "You won't go blind, I don't think" type.
And learn at least ten drinking songs, fucksake.
I do advise, however, getting a cheap homebrew kit. For a bit over a hundred bucks, you can put together a kit and get ingredients that will allow you to make up litres upon litres of beer very cheap. A single coopers brew can makes 20 litres, and that kit has pretty much everything you'll need to keep yourself well (If not over) supplied with beer till you turn 21. And it's a hell of a lot safer, and you're getting quality(well, hopefully) beer for $1.92 a standard bottle(341 ml, or roughly 12 ounces), which is a hell of a lot cheaper than the usual prices.
Sure, not cheaper than those juice-to-booze kits, but it's really a hell of a lot better. And plus, who do you want to be - the dude with the dodgy fruit-juice wine, or the dude that makes his own good beer?
Just make sugar wine and drink that. It's optimally 17% before jacking it; do not fuck around with poison just to get buzzed faster from less liquid. Alternately, bottle beer. Neither of these option will have you risking blindness or death, and both are pretty cool. Brewing beer is far more gentlemanly than brewing kilju, though.
We're not saying don't make your own booze - we're saying don't do it that way, do it this much better, tastier and safer way, because otherwise it will all end in tears. And by tears, I mean blindness and death.
This is not a case where we want to let you make your own mistakes, because this is a case where your mistakes can have permanent and serious consequences, or even kill you. No joke, as little as Ten milliliters can send you blind, that's about two teaspoons, give or take, or just over 0.3 ounces. 60 Milliliters - four tablespoons, or two ounces - is enough to kill you.
I am not fucking you about here, seriously, I advise you with the utmost strength to not do this, and use one of the safer methods we've laid out.