The normal mode SC2 campaign is considered easy by many, try it on hard and see how it goes.
Died instantly.
Apples to Oranges. Want to get good at DotA? Play DotA.
There are some games you can learn by playing. DotA is not one of them.
Consider something like Super Mario Bros. That is a game you can learn by playing. Counting the d-pad there are 8 input buttons. You can press all of them to see what they do. In just a few minutes you can explore the entire gamespace. If you get a flower, it won't take you long to hit B and see a fireball come out. If you fall in a hole, you'll soon learn not to fall in a hole again. The only things you might not learn without a manual is that you can hold B to run fast, crouch to go in some pipes, and that hidden blocks exist. It helps that the parts of the game visually explain themselves. You can probably figure out that falling in holes is bad before you actually fall into one. You can probably figure out that ? blocks are special before hitting one by accident.
DotA is a game you can not really learn by playing. It's much closer to Street Fighter in that regard. Imagine someone walking up to a Street Fighter cabinet who has never played a fighting game before. No tutorial, no instructions. There's a reason they print the special moves on the cabinet, but pretend they aren't there.
This new player sees their opponent using special moves, such as the hadouken. Even trying all the inputs in various combinations, how would they ever learn to throw a hadouken simply by playing? They could play for months on end, and never figure it out without instructions. It's even more unlikely they would discover how to use any special move requiring charging, like the sonic boom. They know it's possible because they see it on screen, but the odds of them figuring it out through trial and error are next to nothing. The odds of ever discovering a combo, or even the concept of a combo existing, without any instruction are effectively zero.
DoTA is not possible to really learn by playing. Nothing explains itself. You walk out onto the field. Colors fill the screen and you are dead with no explanation whatsoever. There is no helpful information to learn from. What did you do wrong that left you so vulnerable? What did the opponent do to kill you? How come they were able to do that, but you weren't? How come when you used all your special moves on them it had barely any effect, but you died instantly afterwards? How did that guy get to level 20 and I'm still level 5? We both started the same, what did he do differently?
At least in other games where you die instantly, such as Counter-Strike, it explains what happened. Obviously you got shot, but it zooms in on the guy who shot you. Oooh, I poked my head out behind the crate and got sniped by a guy hiding there. Oooh, I was looking the other way when I turned the corner. Oooh, that guy snuck up behind me. CS puts a nub into the land if misery, but it's better than DotA which sends you to the land of mystery.
While I think the best way to go when learning Dota is to ether read guides, watch Youtube guides or to get a mentor, I still disagree with Scott.
Just because something isn't instantly obvious, doesn't mean it's impossible to figure out with time and trial and error. For example following kind of thought process could be possible. "I see that one of my skills cause stun on oppnent, let's try it out." "It seems that stunned opponent is unable to do anything and the stun is indicated with that swirl above it's head. Now that I think about it, when I was killed that one time there were those swirls above my head too, so I was stunned." And thus learning has happened with only the information provided by the game.
Also Dota 2 tells you who killed you and even has information of were the damage came from, listing units and the skills used. Though that's hidden behind an button in the "This fuckhead killed you" -box, so it can be easily missed.
While I think the best way to go when learning Dota is to ether read guides, watch Youtube guides or to get a mentor, I still disagree with Scott.
Just because something isn't instantly obvious, doesn't mean it's impossible to figure out with time and trial and error. For example following kind of thought process could be possible. "I see that one of my skills cause stun on oppnent, let's try it out." "It seems that stunned opponent is unable to do anything and the stun is indicated with that swirl above it's head. Now that I think about it, when I was killed that one time there were those swirls above my head too, so I was stunned." And thus learning has happened with only the information provided by the game.
Also Dota 2 tells you who killed you and even has information of were the damage came from, listing units and the skills used. Though that's hidden behind an button in the "This fuckhead killed you" -box, so it can be easily missed.
Obviously there are parts of the game you can learn by playing. Even in Street Fighter you can learn jumping, ducking, blocking, moving, 6 different attacks, etc. all by playing. Moving, attacking, using your four abilities, leveling up, buying items, using items, etc. are all things you can learn just by playing. The fact that some abilities stun people is one of those things. But when it comes down to what really matters, it will take forever to learn if you have no instruction whatsoever.
For example, you get killed by a particular hero. You choose that hero next time and use its abilities to see what was done to you. You try to do the same thing to the other team now that the shoe is on the other foot. It doesn't work and you still die instantly. Why didn't it work on them? What did you do wrong? What did they do? What could you have done to avoid death in the previous game? What could you have done to avoid death just now? How come that guy is ten levels ahead of me!?!?!
I learned DoTA 2 primarily by playing and paying attention. It really isn't all that complicated. Once you understand how to get XP and gold, what stats do, and what the basic character roles are the rest is intuitive.
I learned DoTA 2 primarily by playing and paying attention. It really isn't all that complicated. Once you understand how to get XP and gold, what stats do, and what the basic character roles are the rest is intuitive.
How much RTS/MOBA knowledge did you already have going into it? I have a lot of video game knowledge, but that shit is impenetrable. 100s of items all with non-distinct icons representing them, and that's just the start.
Also, don't underestimate how incapable Scott is at APM-heavy games like classic RTSs. Some people, by defect of the womb alone, are unable to play these games.
I won't pretend that I don't have similar problems with them. I'm interested in strategy and execution, but not on the micro level in real time, and thus have never invested much of anything into mastering it.
I'm not a big fan on the game, but SMITE has an amazing turorial system. It's got a smart buy option for items if you don't know what you want and got less of the ridgid constraints of more established MOBA's. You may want to cut your teeth on that one.
This new player sees their opponent using special moves, such as the hadouken. Even trying all the inputs in various combinations, how would they ever learn to throw a hadouken simply by playing? They could play for months on end, and never figure it out without instructions.
You must be the worst buttonmasher on the fucking planet. Absolutely 100% the worst buttonmasher on the entire fucking planet. Maybe even the whole solar system, but I'm not sure how much time astronauts have to mash buttons. Months of playtime is more than enough time to discover a basic move and figure out the rough inputs for it. After which is becomes trivial to try those inputs or similar inputs for all the characters and see what happens. But someone that has months of playtime is probably excited enough about the game to, gasp, talk about it with others and share information. I agree it's very unlikely someone discovers everything solo, but that's because people will come across instruction very, very easily.
DoTA is not possible to really learn by playing. Nothing explains itself.
Dota, iunno. Dota 2, you have got to be playing with Russian language settings to not be able to read all the tooltips on next to fucking everything.
You walk out onto the field. Colors fill the screen and you are dead with no explanation whatsoever. There is no helpful information to learn from*.
* be sure to claim any and all forms of information gained from any and all sources to be unhelpful.
CS puts a nub into the land if misery, but it's better than DotA which sends you to the land of mystery.
Yeah, those fuckhuge boxes with the picture of your killer, and a pop-out menu breaking down every source of damage taken. Sure it doesn't freeze or slow down time or kick in a replay for you to scrutinize because unlike CS the game is not over after 1 death.
There, enjoy your stupid reply to some of your stupid comments. Now stop exaggerating and just go play the game with the guys that offered to help see what you do wrong. The hardest part of the game is not mechanics, it's having some gamesense. And you can't do good in CS without that either.
I really just want to play so I can better design a game that only incorporates the fun parts and removes the shit parts.
I learned DoTA 2 primarily by playing and paying attention. It really isn't all that complicated. Once you understand how to get XP and gold, what stats do, and what the basic character roles are the rest is intuitive.
How much RTS/MOBA knowledge did you already have going into it? I have a lot of video game knowledge, but that shit is impenetrable. 100s of items all with non-distinct icons representing them, and that's just the start.
I had moderate RTS knowledge (i.e. Company of Heroes and Anno 2070) and zero MOBA experience. The items tell you what they do when you mouse over them, and are located in convenient categories sorted by the stats they boost. Rather than memorizing the items (outside of some important weird ones like the Blink Dagger and the different kinds of boots) I just look at what type of character I am playing, then browse through the item categories to the types that are appropriate. With a little practice it becomes simple and easy to intuit item builds for different lords.
you know you can load up builds for your character right? there is a little book icon on the top left of the screen, you select the build, then it will tell you what skills to level up in what order and what to buy in what order.
Oh, the perfect timing. It seems that they have removed the Beta and now everyone can play. Not that everyone didn't have access already, but perhaps I will wade amongst the nubs this weekend.
I'll be about this weekend if anyone fancies games and/or teaching. Used to play high-ish level in the HoN tournaments and such, now pretty decent at dota.
Our team also runs a free 512 slot teamspeak 3 server if anyone wants in, would be useful for explaining shit outside of games: ts.farragar.com
Well, they removed the need for beta key, but they are quite quiet about it. I assume that there will at some point following weeks be a proper "release" with Steam's frontpage being full of Dota 2. That's when the nubs flood the town.
Well, they removed the need for beta key, but they are quite quiet about it. I assume that there will at some point following weeks be a proper "release" with Steam's frontpage being full of Dota 2. That's when the nubs flood the town.
Apparently the news for Dota 2 being playable without beta key were false. You can get the client and play the tutorial and I assume you can spectate matches, but you can't actually play the game.
Apparently the news for Dota 2 being playable without beta key were false. You can get the client and play the tutorial and I assume you can spectate matches, but you can't actually play the game.
So no newb flood yet.
I'm really curious how big a newb flood can possibly be considering that 282,476 are playing right now.
I'm really curious how big a newb flood can possibly be considering that 282,476 are playing right now.
I assume that when it comes out there will be momentary spike in players when people who might have heard about Dota, or been slightly curious, but not enough to actually get beta-key. Then they play a game realize it's hard and quit and player numbers fall down close to current levels.
Comments
Consider something like Super Mario Bros. That is a game you can learn by playing. Counting the d-pad there are 8 input buttons. You can press all of them to see what they do. In just a few minutes you can explore the entire gamespace. If you get a flower, it won't take you long to hit B and see a fireball come out. If you fall in a hole, you'll soon learn not to fall in a hole again. The only things you might not learn without a manual is that you can hold B to run fast, crouch to go in some pipes, and that hidden blocks exist. It helps that the parts of the game visually explain themselves. You can probably figure out that falling in holes is bad before you actually fall into one. You can probably figure out that ? blocks are special before hitting one by accident.
DotA is a game you can not really learn by playing. It's much closer to Street Fighter in that regard. Imagine someone walking up to a Street Fighter cabinet who has never played a fighting game before. No tutorial, no instructions. There's a reason they print the special moves on the cabinet, but pretend they aren't there.
This new player sees their opponent using special moves, such as the hadouken. Even trying all the inputs in various combinations, how would they ever learn to throw a hadouken simply by playing? They could play for months on end, and never figure it out without instructions. It's even more unlikely they would discover how to use any special move requiring charging, like the sonic boom. They know it's possible because they see it on screen, but the odds of them figuring it out through trial and error are next to nothing. The odds of ever discovering a combo, or even the concept of a combo existing, without any instruction are effectively zero.
DoTA is not possible to really learn by playing. Nothing explains itself. You walk out onto the field. Colors fill the screen and you are dead with no explanation whatsoever. There is no helpful information to learn from. What did you do wrong that left you so vulnerable? What did the opponent do to kill you? How come they were able to do that, but you weren't? How come when you used all your special moves on them it had barely any effect, but you died instantly afterwards? How did that guy get to level 20 and I'm still level 5? We both started the same, what did he do differently?
At least in other games where you die instantly, such as Counter-Strike, it explains what happened. Obviously you got shot, but it zooms in on the guy who shot you. Oooh, I poked my head out behind the crate and got sniped by a guy hiding there. Oooh, I was looking the other way when I turned the corner. Oooh, that guy snuck up behind me. CS puts a nub into the land if misery, but it's better than DotA which sends you to the land of mystery.
Just because something isn't instantly obvious, doesn't mean it's impossible to figure out with time and trial and error. For example following kind of thought process could be possible. "I see that one of my skills cause stun on oppnent, let's try it out."
"It seems that stunned opponent is unable to do anything and the stun is indicated with that swirl above it's head. Now that I think about it, when I was killed that one time there were those swirls above my head too, so I was stunned."
And thus learning has happened with only the information provided by the game.
Also Dota 2 tells you who killed you and even has information of were the damage came from, listing units and the skills used. Though that's hidden behind an button in the "This fuckhead killed you" -box, so it can be easily missed.
For example, you get killed by a particular hero. You choose that hero next time and use its abilities to see what was done to you. You try to do the same thing to the other team now that the shoe is on the other foot. It doesn't work and you still die instantly. Why didn't it work on them? What did you do wrong? What did they do? What could you have done to avoid death in the previous game? What could you have done to avoid death just now? How come that guy is ten levels ahead of me!?!?!
I won't pretend that I don't have similar problems with them. I'm interested in strategy and execution, but not on the micro level in real time, and thus have never invested much of anything into mastering it.
Alternatively, you could put in some actual effort into learning the game, but your choice.
There, enjoy your stupid reply to some of your stupid comments. Now stop exaggerating and just go play the game with the guys that offered to help see what you do wrong. The hardest part of the game is not mechanics, it's having some gamesense. And you can't do good in CS without that either. A noble goal. Good luck with that.
Our team also runs a free 512 slot teamspeak 3 server if anyone wants in, would be useful for explaining shit outside of games: ts.farragar.com
So no newb flood yet.