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N-Control Avenger

edited November 2010 in Video Games
This video speaks for itself.

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I just want to point out one thing. I never even consciously thought about the fact that playing an fps with a gamepad you have to remove your thumb from the aiming analog stick to press any of the face buttons. More than any of my other complaints about gampad vs keyboard and mouse, this is even more dramatic. I can't believe I overlooked it.
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Comments

  • edited November 2010
    This video speaks for itself.
    What, that you can con idiots into buying something that looks like an octopus fucking your controller?

    Seriously, dude, how fucking desperate are you about this Gamepad vs Keyboard and mouse thing?

    And how is this different to all the Gaming mice and Gaming keyboards that claim to have ludicrously(and indeed, often pointlessly) high performance to improve your game? Or those things that look like you've taped a half of a keyboard to a wrist brace, so you can embarrass yourself with even greater efficiency?

    You know why they sell things like this? Because there are a lot of people out there who will buy stupid shit they think lets them improve without any large amount of effort. Look at any sport, there's shit out just like this. Hell, even just in getting fit in the first place, there's stupid shit like this. Case in point - Power-balance bracelets and the like, for one particularly good example - Which I've seen marketed to gamers of all stripes(along with pretty much every sport going, and even just for improving day to day life), claiming it improves reaction times and steadies the hand, by interacting with the body's bioelectric field. In reality, it's just a .02 cent silicone wristband with a .05 cent hologram sticker on it, but they'll sell it to you at sixty bucks and claims it improves your game.

    Congratulations, Scott - You've proved two things - That People are lazy and will buy stupid shit if they think it lets them improve without effort, and that you're really, really grasping at straws now.


    Side note - anyone else notice how the marketing for this appears to be exactly like other sport related Bullshit? Customer testimonials, a vague description of how it works, no data, no evidence, and a few non-specific claims that it'll improve the way you play. Just switch out the buzz-words, and you could be selling damn near anything.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • Not only is the video full of shit, it's shit. Are they recording testimonials being played through a tiny television?
  • image
    Check it out, you see this? I have a debilitating penis disease that makes me unable to have an erection, but anyway, this keyboard makes everything way faster. All it takes is a simple movement of the finger, faster than all the normal mainstream keyboards. All the buttons are now at my fingertips, and I am now currently the best at every videogame. Not only that, but claims about my sexuality have gone up by 20%!
  • edited November 2010
    @Joe Boomer --
    I've actually looked into those things (I think that one specifically, even) for setting up shortcut keys for Photoshop and the like -- the problem's always been that they don't seem to make them for lefties.
    Post edited by Funfetus on
  • edited November 2010
    @Joe Boomer --
    I've actually looked into those things (I think that one specifically, even) for setting up shortcut keys for Photoshop and the like -- the problem's always been that they don't seem to make them for lefties.
    But it's made by Germans. Ya know they always make good stuff.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • Although the video looks rather fake, the mode of operation makes sense, although I can't say how much of a difference this would make, nor are there any data to show the level of difference.
  • Although the video looks rather fake, the mode of operation makes sense, although I can't say how much of a difference this would make, nor are there any data to show the level of difference.
    It does make sense, but really, what's the gain, as you said - there's little data on it, probably because there isn't any, or it's unfavourable compared to average, so they hide it.

    Like I said - It's a product aimed towards people who are either unskilled, and need to get better, but don't want to spend the effort, or the ridiculous uber-l33t I'm-so-pro-d00dZ teenager and that sort of lot who don't care to practice, they just want to decimate the competition by any means necessary.

    Though, it does kinda amuse me that they point out that this won't get you banned from X-box live, because it's undetectable - a pretty clear concession to the fact that - much like the powerbalance bracelets and their ilk - that if it actually did work as advertised, then it would pretty clearly be cheating.
  • Though, it does kinda amuse me that they point out that this won't get you banned from X-box live, because it's undetectable - a pretty clear concession to the fact that - much like the powerbalance bracelets and their ilk - that if it actually did work as advertised, then it would pretty clearly be cheating.
    According to what rules?
    Like I said - It's a product aimed towards people who are either unskilled, and need to get better, but don't want to spend the effort, or the ridiculous uber-l33t I'm-so-pro-d00dZ teenager and that sort of lot who don't care to practice, they just want to decimate the competition by any means necessary.
    Except wanting to decimating the competition by any means necessary is contradictory to not caring to practice. Using any available means that is not cheating is exactly the right way to play a game.

    If this device actually makes a big difference, then that's great, and everyone who cares about being competitive should have one. Otherwise, who cares?
  • edited November 2010
    According to what rules?
    In this case, You're modifying the equipment to gain an advantage over other people. The only difference is that rather than putting a chip in your 360, you're strapping a rubber octopus to it. Just the same as there's no Game rule that says "You can't use a controller with a turbo button" or "You can't use a Game Genie type device", doesn't mean that using those in competition with others isn't cheating.

    Though, the Powerbalance example is a little more clear cut on that front - it's an external device that purports to enhance performance to the point where it would be unfair to the players without them(if it worked), much in the manner of steroids and the like, and thus, using it during the game would be cheating. Just the same as using weighted gloves in boxing would be cheating, or using Spiked shoulder pads and helmets in Gridiron would be cheating, or shoving your horse full of drugs would be cheating.

    Edit - This remind me of an article I read about Employing a goalie who was so morbidly obese, he made it practically impossible to successfully shoot goals in Ice Hockey. The general consensus is "If you managed to do it, You'd get your ass kicked by the fans, and pretty much no team would play against you that season, if the ruling body didn't flat out tell you to fuck off to Weight Watchers, even if it's not explicitly against the rules" - But hey, I think Scott would go for it. It's not against the rules, so that obviously means two things - That it's perfectly acceptable, and that Ice Hockey is Broken, and therefore a terrible game.
    Except wanting to decimating the competition by any means necessary is contradictory to not caring to practice. Using any available means that is not cheating is exactly the right way to play a game.
    I didn't say it was contradictory. I simply said that the idiots who buy this sort of thing because want to decimate the competition generally don't care to put in the effort to practice, they want a magic solution. Because let's face it, 99.999% Percent of people who would be buying this are not pros, and are not at any level of skill where even the slight difference this would provide is advantageous.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • According to what rules?
    In this case, You're modifying the equipment to gain an advantage over other people. The only difference is that rather than putting a chip in your 360, you're strapping a rubber octopus to it. Just the same as there's no Game rule that says "You can't use a controller with a turbo button" or "You can't use a Game Genie type device", doesn't mean that using those in competition with others isn't cheating.

    Though, the Powerbalance example is a little more clear cut on that front - it's an external device that purports to enhance performance to the point where it would be unfair to the players without them(if it worked), much in the manner of steroids and the like, and thus, using it during the game would be cheating. Just the same as using weighted gloves in boxing would be cheating, or using Spiked shoulder pads and helmets in Gridiron would be cheating, or shoving your horse full of drugs would be cheating.
    Those things are cheating precisely because there's explicit rules against them. That's the only reason.
    Except wanting to decimating the competition by any means necessary is contradictory to not caring to practice. Using any available means that is not cheating is exactly the right way to play a game.
    I didn't say it was contradictory. I simply said that the idiots who buy this sort of thing because want to decimate the competition generally don't care to put in the effort to practice, they want a magic solution. Because let's face it, 99.999% Percent of people who would be buying this are not pros, and are not at any level of skill where even the slight difference this would provide is advantageous.
    Sure, but 99.999% of people aren't pros. As for whether it would help shitty players or not, again I cannot say.
  • edited November 2010
    Those things are cheating precisely because there's explicit rules against them. That's the only reason.
    And Modifying your console, to gain an advantage or otherwise, is against the rules on X-box live - People get banned for it with a pretty reasonable frequency. Shit, people have been banned for using Exploits, let alone mods.
    Sure, but 99.999% of people aren't pros. As for whether it would help shitty players or not, again I cannot say.
    It is hard to say, without any data, and these yahoos are not gonna be releasing any data that doesn't say exactly that.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • Those things are cheating precisely because there's explicit rules against them. That's the only reason.
    And Modifying your console, to gain an advantage or otherwise, is against the rules on X-box live - People get banned for it with a pretty reasonable frequency. Shit, people have been banned for using Exploits, let alone mods.
    The only "modding" in particular I've read of people being banned for is firmware modding. By your logic, any third-party controller not explicitly allowed by Microsoft would be against the rules.
  • The only "modding" in particular I've read of people being banned for is firmware modding. By your logic, any third-party controller not explicitly allowed by Microsoft would be against the rules.
    Firmware or Hardware modding will get you banned - Any detectable change in the system when it reports back to Live, and they ban that console, permanently. And, as I've said, they've banned people for using exploits.
  • Banning people for using exploits is complete bullshit. Exploiting is often fun, and everyone can do it; it's cool up until it gets patched, and once it gets patched, that's great.
    The only "modding" in particular I've read of people being banned for is firmware modding. By your logic, any third-party controller not explicitly allowed by Microsoft would be against the rules.
    Firmware or Hardware modding will get you banned - Any detectable change in the system when it reports back to Live, and they ban that console, permanently. And, as I've said, they've banned people for using exploits.
    Well, I don't know whether Microsoft is able to detect a third-party controller, but if they can, why aren't people being banned for using those? It's different to Microsoft's hardware. In any case, if the rule is that any modifications Microsoft can detect with whatever testing system they use is not allowed, then by default anything they can't detect is allowed.

    A side note:
    I remember I had a great time exploiting in Left 4 Dead; my best memory of the game is throwing objects at human allies in the elevator while shouting "TANK!" on the microphone, making them fall through the floor and die, and then still winning the level without them (Granted, this didn't happen every time).
    To some this might seem like a good reason to ban people for using exploits, but to those people I say the issue here was griefing and not exploiting.
  • I'm going to wait for some reviews but I don't see how this really matters.
  • edited November 2010
    Banning people for using exploits is complete bullshit. Exploiting is often fun, and everyone can do it; it's cool up until it gets patched, and once it gets patched, that's great.
    Yeah, though I'd say it depends on the exploit. The Javelin glitch, for example, made MW2 nigh on unplayable for about a week - also, I think those bans are game specific, rather than service-wide.
    Well, I don't know whether Microsoft is able to detect a third-party controller, but if they can, why aren't people being banned for using those? It's different to Microsoft's hardware. In any case, if the rule is that any modifications Microsoft can detect with whatever testing system they use is not allowed, then by default anything they can't detect is allowed.
    And By default, since it's not explicitly outlawed, you can have a morbidly obese goalie take up the whole goal, but that doesn't mean that you're going to take the Stanley cup. Or, since it's not explicitly disallowed, you could always win a game of baseball by poisoning the other team before the game. Or, you can win pretty much any board game by punching the opposition into unconsciousness, therefore winning by their inability to continue the game, ditto that for winning at any video game.
    Well, I don't know whether Microsoft is able to detect a third-party controller, but if they can, why aren't people being banned for using those? It's different to Microsoft's hardware. In any case, if the rule is that any modifications Microsoft can detect with whatever testing system they use is not allowed, then by default anything they can't detect is allowed.
    Cheese, I couldn't give a bloody fuck. You want to know, take it up with Microsoft.

    Here, let me follow your argument through to the logical conclusion for you in the most simple fashion possible. One does not have perfect knowledge, nor does any group or organisation. Therefore, it isn't possible to explicitly outlaw everything, therefore there is no point to having rules to any game or sport in the first place - since you've essentially made any every rule unenforceable, and therefore, the game unplayable. Sure, you can do a TSA, and outlaw what they've already done, but they will just think of something else. By your plan, I could win the Olympics, taking gold in every event, by the simple matter of killing every other Olympian. Great plan, this. I'm going to be a world champion of everything, ever. Sure, I'll be a very lonely one, with just killing anyone who is any sort of competition, but hey, whatever it takes that isn't explicitly ruled against, right? I'm pretty sure I can come up with enough Rube Goldberg Plots of ever deepening complexity that I could kill off pretty much everyone I'd need to.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • edited November 2010
    And By default, since it's not explicitly outlawed, you can have a morbidly obese goalie take up the whole goal, but that doesn't mean that you're going to take the Stanley cup. Or, since it's not explicitly disallowed, you could always win a game of baseball by poisoning the other team before the game. Or, you can win pretty much any board game by punching the opposition into unconsciousness, therefore winning by their inability to continue the game, ditto that for winning at any video game.
    Those last two things are explicitly illegal. Games don't need rules to stop you from doing anything illegal; that's what laws are for.
    Here, let me follow your argument through to the logical conclusion for you in the most simple fashion possible. One does not have perfect knowledge, nor does any group or organisation. Therefore, it isn't possible to explicitly outlaw everything, therefore there is no point to having rules to any game or sport in the first place - since you've essentially made any every rule unenforceable, and therefore, the game unplayable.
    While it is true that many such rules are unenforceable, it still makes sense to have them because the majority of people will choose to follow them. Even worse is to have certain enforceable rules without explicitly telling everyone what they are, which seems to be the approach Microsoft has taken.

    Here's what I consider to be the de facto standard of video gaming rules: You may utilize the output video and sound signals of the game in any way you like in order to produce an input signal of any nature you choose. I'd call it the "black box" rule - up to a certain point, the software and hardware must be treated as a black box to which you have no access, even though it might be possible to do so. Evidently, the boundary of this "black box" must stop at some point outside of the human brain, because one cannot be denied access to one's brain. The logical thing to do is to define the black box as the game's software, and restrict I/O to the video and sound outputs, and the input signals accepted by the game.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • edited November 2010
    So you're okay with aimbots in CS? Technically, they feed the same input I would to the game, just better.
    Post edited by WindUpBird on
  • edited November 2010
    Depends on how the aimbot reads the data it uses to aim. If it interferes with network packets or reads RAM associated with the game, then that's not cool. If the aimbot actually reads the video output signal and sends in an input signal to determine where to aim, then I'd say that's fine, and relatively awesome, but I doubt any particularly effective aimbots actually do this.

    From a quick glance at the Wikipedia article on aimbots, "color aimbots" are fine, while graphics driver-based aimbots, client hook-based aimbots and StoogeBot are not. I suspect that any aimbot that actually uses the video output signal is very rarely better than an average player, and likely has nothing on a good one.

    Macros and scripted inputs are another controversial area, but I don't see a problem with them either.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • edited November 2010
    Yes, that device I posted in the original video is incredibly ludicrous and stupid. But seeing it made me realize that on a gamepad you can not aim and press ABXY at the same time. At least you can do some things at the same time thanks to the LR buttons, but that's not really enough, especially for an FPS.

    As for what is cheating, cheating is defined as breaking the rules of a game. For a board game, the rules are in the rule book, plus any errata. For a video game, the rules are the code of the game. Patches are basically errata, because they change the code. As long as you do not modify the code of a game, you are not cheating. If there's an exploit, then they better patch that. If you have a different input device, that's just fine.

    Maybe if you enter a tournament they might add extra rules, such as mandating the use of default controllers. If you break that rule, you might not be cheating at the game, but you are cheating in the tournament.

    Many many years ago someone setup a robot that plays Quake. It uses a webcam to look at the screen and robotic systems to control the mouse and keyboard. How is this cheating? Was it cheating when the can of Vanilla Coke played in the Yugi-Oh CCG tournament?

    If you don't break the rules of the game, you aren't cheating. As EA Sports use to say, "If it's in the game, it's in the game."
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • edited November 2010
    As for what is cheating, cheating is defined as breaking the rules of a game. For a board game, the rules are in the rule book, plus any errata. For a video game, the rules are the code of the game. Patches are basically errata, because they change the code. As long as you do not modify the code of a game, you are not cheating. If there's an exploit, then they better patch that. If you have a different input device, that's just fine.
    I'd say that's an inadequate description. You can modify data in memory without modifying the code of the game, and you can intercept or spoof the packets sent over the network. You can also interfere with code that isn't part of the game but is essential to it, such as graphics drivers.
    I'd consider all of these to be cheating.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • Scott, what if we're on the same network and I start SYN flooding you? Is that cheating?
  • I'd say that's an inadequate description. You can modify data in memory without modifying the code of the game, and you can intercept or spoof the packets sent over the network. You can also interfere with code that isn't part of the game but is essential to it, such as graphics drivers.
    I'd consider all of these to be cheating.
    Scott, what if we're on the same network and I start SYN flooding you? Is that cheating?
    For things like this, I don't look at them as cheating, I look at them as invalidating.

    What happens if there is rain during a game of baseball? They delay or reschedule. What about in the NCAA when they play a game, and then after the fact they determine that a player on the field was ineligible? They strike the game from the records. It doesn't count. It's rare, but if in golf they determine that the greens were not conditioned properly, then a round or hole might not count. A game is only valid when played under conditions acceptable to the game in question. If those conditions are not there, then the game gets a big old asterisk, or just doesn't count.

    If there is a shit ton of lag, that's not cheating, it's the same as a rain delay. If you SYN flood someone, that's basically the same as controlling the weather to make it rain on a baseball game. If you are to hack the game server or modify data in memory, then that's the same as interference. What if a fan runs on the field and kicks a trips a player as they run around the bases? It's an outside influence coming in a screwing up the game. Video games tend not to actually have rules for interference, because it doesn't happen in tournaments, and it unenforceable outside of tournaments. I think the default for all games is basically that in the case of interference, you mulligan if possible. If a do-over is not possible, then the game gets a huge asterisk and doesn't count.
  • edited November 2010
    If this kind of invalidation occurs due to outside influences, then that's not going to pose a problem. However, if someone can control this process, then they can invalidate any game they are losing until they win. Hence invalidation by outside influence and invalidation under the control of a player must be considered differently.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • edited November 2010
    Here's one more example I just thought of.

    Think of a game of Chess. What if someone in a chess tournament was wearing an ear-piece and getting help from outside sources? It's cheating at the tournament because almost every tournament will have a rule against that. But is it cheating at chess? No, it's not cheating at chess. The rules of chess don't say anything about talking to other people. The rules of chess only take into account the white player, the black player, the chess board, and the chess pieces. Anything else is outside the scope of the game of chess.

    Every game is assumed to be in isolation from the rest of the world, like a virtual machine on a computer. If anything outside the scope of the rules of a game comes into the game, then that is interference, and it could invalidate that instance of the game.

    What if we are playing a game of Puerto Rico, and I blast some really loud music. Am I cheating at Puerto Rico? No, I'm not breaking any rules. But the music is something outside the context of the game that is interfering with the game. Therefore, it is valid to argue that that instance of the game does not count on account of interference.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • edited November 2010
    Yes, that device I posted in the original video is incredibly ludicrous and stupid. But seeing it made me realize that on a gamepad you can not aim and press ABXY at the same time. At least you can do some things at the same time thanks to the LR buttons, but that's not really enough, especially for an FPS.
    There are four shoulder buttons in basic gamepad and both analogue sticks act as buttons too, so that's six buttons. How is that not enough for FPS. By minimum FPS needs means for moving, aiming and shooting.

    Edit: Also on a keyboard I have to constantly move my fingers away from wasd to do almost anything, choose weapon, reload, do an action, crouch (depending little on ones configuration).
    Post edited by Apsup on
  • If this kind of invalidation occurs due to outside influences, then that's not going to pose a problem. However, if someone can control this process, then they can invalidate any game they are losing until they win. Hence invalidation by outside influence and invalidation under the control of a player must be considered differently.
    It is true that people often will often cause intentional interference to end a game when they are losing. Or even worse, a game will allow people to bail before the completion of a game, such as in Mario Kart DS.

    When video games have leaderboards, and they do not handle these situations properly, this can be considered cheating in context of the leaderboard.

    However, in most instances, there is a better interpretation. If one of the players in a game intentionally causes or induces interference with intent to end or invalidate the game, that can be assumed the equivalent of forfeiting. For example, if someone flips over the board in a game of Risk. That's not cheating, it's interference. But it is assumed that the person who flipped it over has forfeited. If the person who flipped it over was not a player, and was not in cahoots with any player, then the game is just invalidated.
  • There are four shoulder buttons in basic gamepad and both analogue sticks act as buttons too, so that's six buttons. How is that not enough for FPS. By minimum FPS needs means for moving, aiming and shooting.
    Six buttons is pretty good, but it's not as many as mouse and keyboard. There are at least five on the mouse alone if you have left, right, middle, scroll up, and scroll down. Most modern gaming mice have more than that, and you can press all of them while moving the mouse simultaneously. Also, if you can't press R to reload while also WASD-ing, that's just sad. I can fully WASD with a minimum of one and a maximum of two fingers at a time. That leaves three or four fingers on my left hand free to hit buttons everywhere left of, and including, the 6YHN column on the keyboard.
  • Oh, gotta get in the obligatory mention of my distane for Phantom patenting the lapboard. An invention which could have otherwise been useful.
  • Oh, gotta get in the obligatory mention of my distane for Phantom patenting the lapboard. An invention which could have otherwise been useful.
    I agree. I desperately need something like this for my HTPC.
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