Also, there's really no other roquefort besides raw. If it isn't raw, it isn't roquefort. And I'm not willing to give up something that moved me to transcendental food bliss the first time I had it. I literally could not speak for several minutes. That's how good AOC Roquefort is. Also, the FDA considers it safe, being hard and aged well past 60 days.
If I die because of roquefort, well, at least I died because of roquefort, and not pathogenic E. coli from a processed Con-Agra meat patty.
Do not eat soft cheese such as Feta, queso blanco, queso fresco, Brie, Camembert cheeses, blue-veined cheeses, and Panela unless it is labeled as made with pasteurized milk. Make sure the label says, "MADE WITH PASTEURIZED MILK."
Emphasis mine.
I understand that you want to eat raw roquefort. That's cool. Recognize that you are in fact eating a food with a significant association with L. monocytogenes contamination.
As a professional food safety microbiologist, I strongly advise against the consumption of such cheeses.
You're misrepresenting that point a bit, I feel; the CDC actually says:
Recommendations for persons at high risk, such as pregnant women and persons with weakened immune systems, in addition to the recommendations listed above...Do not eat soft cheeses such as feta, Brie, and Camembert, blue-veined cheeses, or Mexican-style cheeses such as queso blanco, queso fresco, and Panela, unless they have labels that clearly state they are made from pasteurized milk.
The CDC does say that raw milk is an all-around no-no and they advise against foods made with it, but it would seem that those foods are things like puddings since cheeses only bear mention in the "high risk" category. Since I am a 19 year-old male with no immune deficiencies, I'm safe for the relative future on the raw cheese front, I think.
That being said, I usually stick to pasteurized cheeses and make very, very few exceptions to that rule. Roquefort (like oysters, sushi, and sashimi) is just one of those things. Your opinion as a scientist has been duly noted and I don't contest the validity of your statements; I recognize that, like V. vulnificus, it could happen any time, but I'll take those chances.
I certainly won't be drinking raw milk any time soon, since that seems exponentially more dangerous than several grams of cheese on crackers once in a while, and I won't be serving raw cheeses to any elderly, very young, or pregnant guests. Indeed, I made a point of expressly not purchasing any raw milk cheeses the last time I was entertaining guests that fell into those categories.
The CDC does say that raw milk is an all-around no-no and they advise against foods made with it, but it would seem that those foods are things like puddings since cheeses only bear mention in the "high risk" category. Since I am a 19 year-old male with no immune deficiencies, I'm safe for the relative future on the raw cheese front, I think.
It really sucks that there isn't good statistical data on the risks, because without that data it's a lot harder to make this kind of decision.
Ultimately, anything good in life is worth some risk of death or poor health; the question is how much.
It really sucks that there isn't good statistical data on the risks, because without that data it's a lot harder to make this kind of decision.
Yes, risk modeling can really only be done for individual outbreaks. Your general risk is pretty much impossible to assess. I wish it were different, but thems the facts.
Me, I err on the side of caution. Not insignificant chance of death from consuming a food product? I can do without the product. Your mileage may vary.
Maybe. But the problem is, there have been outbreaks of listeriosis in the past that have resulted in fully healthy adults contracting the invasive illness and dying. We know it's inadvisable for high-risk individuals, but we don't really know about healthy adults. As I mentioned before, data are sparse and hard to get, especially with regard to listeriosis.
I know three people that drink and advocate raw milk. None of them are unintelligent nor are they uniformed. They do seem to be misinformed, or more accurately, they were convinced by misinformation and simply deny any other information that doesn't conform to their belief. Apparently dispelling a pseudo-scientific belief is just as difficult as dispelling any other belief. Providing information is always helpful to those that will actually take it into consideration, but it is just more noise or more "propaganda" to those that choose to believe.
I like soy milk and almond milk. I also like skim milk (I can't really drink fattier mils without feeling queasy - I think it is mostly psychosomatic, though). All told, though, I don't drink much of any kind of milk. I get calcium from other sources, and I would rather eat my calories than drink them.
So, BoingBoing - Specifically, Mark Fraudenfelder - posted about the Amish Raw Milk Smuggling story, and otherwise makes clear their support for raw milk, and goes for anyone who responds in the negative, and implying that states in the US banning raw milk are stupid, because more people are hurt by high school football than raw milk.Pete, I'm warning you - If you read this, then it might actually make your head explode.
Oh, and when challenged on facts, he revealed This article on this blog, which are helpfully titled "Drinking Pasteurized Milk is Dangerous" and then proceeds to claim more people get sick from Pasteurized milk than raw milk, on a blog titled "CheeseSlave - For the love of Cheese. And Bacon. And Butter. And Raw Milk. And all the other things we're not supposed to eat".
Also, I recommend against reading that blog, it's concentrated hippie dipshit stupid may actually cause you to beat your own brains out with a vegan's thigh-bone.
So, BoingBoing - Specifically, Mark Fraudenfelder - posted about the Amish Raw Milk Smuggling story, and otherwise makes clear their support for raw milk, and goes for anyone who responds in the negative, and implying that states in the US banning raw milk are stupid, because more people are hurt by high school football than raw milk.Pete, I'm warning you - If you read this, then it might actually make your head explode.
Mark Frauenfelder is the only bullshit deuchebag on BoingBoing. I'm 99% positive that the other three BoingBoing people (Xeni, David, Cory) do not believe this nonsense, as they frequently post science stuff and specifically James Randi/Carl Sagain skeptical stuff. In the past I wrote a blog post reaming Frauenfelder when he was supporting Zicam, the zinc nasal gel which falsely claims to help cure colds/cold symptoms and instead just removes your sense of smell.
Mark Frauenfelder is the only bullshit deuchebag on BoingBoing. I'm 99% positive that the other three BoingBoing people (Xeni, David, Cory) do not believe this nonsense, as they frequently post science stuff and specifically James Randi/Carl Sagain skeptical stuff. In the past I wrote a blog post reaming Frauenfelder when he was supporting Zicam, the zinc nasal gel which falsely claims to help cure colds/cold symptoms and instead just removes your sense of smell.
I'm pretty sure I've heard Xeni on TWIT talking about how she enjoys raw milk, but I could be 100% wrong, I don't honestly remember too clearly.
I would call Corey Doctorow sane, but I've read some of his non-fiction. Suffice to say, he's not a raw milk person, as best I can tell, and is generally rational and skeptical.
Still, Mark is indeed not the best informed of the four.
EDIT - Oh jesus, don't read the comments thread. These people are fucking stupid.
Just the latest comment as I edited this -
I'm actually an immunocompromised person (Crohn's Disease, on medicine that kicks the heck out of my immune system), and I drink raw milk. There were a couple things that converted me:
1) Pasteurization kills *most* bacteria, but in most milk you'll find on the shelf, Mycobacterium Paratuberculosis is still present. It's believed (not proven), with some correlation (again, not causation), to be a possible cause of Crohn's disease. However, you don't find that in properly handled 'raw' milk. First, this is because there are other things in the milk that pasteurization kills that would normally fight the Mycobacterium Paratuberculosis (yes I copied and pasted it, got a problem?). Secondly, cows raised on a real farm setting, instead of a factory farm setting, which aren't lying in their own manure all the time, don't pass it around or contract it.
2) If you do tests on raw versus pasteurized milk, you'll find that on average there are fewer bacteria in raw milk. I don't have the numbers on hand, but it's on the order of 100 to 1.
3) (this is my inner hippie) I get to meet the cows every week when I pick up my milk from the dairy. The way it works is that I've bought a share of a cow, and I pay a weekly fee to feed that share - basically a way to get around not being able to 'sell' raw milk. They're healthy, not wallowing in their own shit, eating good grass, and they're happy. And I've seen them being milked - It's a good clean process that I'm much less worried about.
Also, about something else on your list - game. I'd much rather trust game that I or a family member killed and butchered than meat from a factory. I know that it was handled well and properly, and if the animal was sick or not. I don't know that about meat at the grocery store.
*whew, I don't post here often, but when I do, it usually ends up like this*
2) If you do tests on raw versus pasteurized milk, you'll find that on average there are fewer bacteria in raw milk. I don't have the numbers on hand, but it's on the order of 100 to 1.
THE DEFINITION OF "PASTEURIZATION" IS A PROCESS THAT CREATES A 5 LOG REDUCTION IN THE LOAD OF AN INDICATOR ORGANISM IN THE MILK. HOLY FUCKING FUCK.
That means that pasteurized milk - BY FUCKING LAW - contains FIVE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE LESS BACTERIA than does raw milk.
Sometimes, I really just want to give up on this whole thing.
Mate, I've encountered woo of all flavors from all sorts of people, and frankly, I can't blame you at all.
It just flares up sometimes. This is incredibly important to me; I actually care about this topic a lot, for a variety of reasons, so I keep plugging away even though I know in my heart of hearts that I'm fighting a losing battle.
This, I think, is why so many scientists become bitter and jaded. The fight to generate an accurately informed public is monumental and exhausting.
Goddamnit - Chilling in the kitchen today, and one of my housemate's friends was about, and was pouring milk from a little bottle into his tea, and when I asked why, he said "oh, I didn't expect someone like YOU to have raw milk around the house, so I bought my own for health reasons."
Goddamn near punched him in the dick.
To be fair, though, he did ask me a few weeks ago if I was cooking a vegetarian option for the Australia day barbecue, to which I told him "Yeah, absolutely, we've got a vegetarian option: Fuck off."
Pete, you'd hate European dairies. Raw milk is sold pretty much everywhere. The UK is the only nation trying to regulate it.
Actually, I do know some French guys who are trying their best. And I also know an ex-German-Navy microbiologist who is one of the foremost authorities on listeriosis.
That guy, by the way, is serious fucking business.
So there's some movement to try to regulate the stuff over there. It's slow going, though.
3) (this is my inner hippie) I get to meet the cows every week when I pick up my milk from the dairy. The way it works is that I've bought a share of a cow, and I pay a weekly fee to feed that share - basically a way to get around not being able to 'sell' raw milk. They're healthy, not wallowing in their own shit, eating good grass, and they're happy. And I've seen them being milked - It's a good clean process that I'm much less worried about.
This makes me wonder. The primary problem with raw milk is that cows are generally dirty, right? If we keep them clean will the milk be more safe to drink?
This makes me wonder. The primary problem with raw milk is that cows are generally dirty, right? If we keep them clean will the milk be more safe to drink?
We already sanitize the udders before milking. The apparent cleanliness of a cow or farm often has little bearing on the microbial safety of the milk produced there.
The farm environment contains countless reservoirs for pathogens; it's pretty easy to get a bug from the environment into raw milk.
Hypothetically, I guess if you raised the cows in a cleanroom, and handled the milk in a cleanroom, you might be OK. That would be prohibitively expensive, though.
Comments
Also, there's really no other roquefort besides raw. If it isn't raw, it isn't roquefort. And I'm not willing to give up something that moved me to transcendental food bliss the first time I had it. I literally could not speak for several minutes. That's how good AOC Roquefort is. Also, the FDA considers it safe, being hard and aged well past 60 days.
If I die because of roquefort, well, at least I died because of roquefort, and not pathogenic E. coli from a processed Con-Agra meat patty.
I understand that you want to eat raw roquefort. That's cool. Recognize that you are in fact eating a food with a significant association with L. monocytogenes contamination.
As a professional food safety microbiologist, I strongly advise against the consumption of such cheeses.
That being said, I usually stick to pasteurized cheeses and make very, very few exceptions to that rule. Roquefort (like oysters, sushi, and sashimi) is just one of those things. Your opinion as a scientist has been duly noted and I don't contest the validity of your statements; I recognize that, like V. vulnificus, it could happen any time, but I'll take those chances.
I certainly won't be drinking raw milk any time soon, since that seems exponentially more dangerous than several grams of cheese on crackers once in a while, and I won't be serving raw cheeses to any elderly, very young, or pregnant guests. Indeed, I made a point of expressly not purchasing any raw milk cheeses the last time I was entertaining guests that fell into those categories.
Ultimately, anything good in life is worth some risk of death or poor health; the question is how much.
Me, I err on the side of caution. Not insignificant chance of death from consuming a food product? I can do without the product. Your mileage may vary.
To each his/her own.
I also like skim milk (I can't really drink fattier mils without feeling queasy - I think it is mostly psychosomatic, though).
All told, though, I don't drink much of any kind of milk. I get calcium from other sources, and I would rather eat my calories than drink them.
Oh, and when challenged on facts, he revealed This article on this blog, which are helpfully titled "Drinking Pasteurized Milk is Dangerous" and then proceeds to claim more people get sick from Pasteurized milk than raw milk, on a blog titled "CheeseSlave - For the love of Cheese. And Bacon. And Butter. And Raw Milk. And all the other things we're not supposed to eat".
Also, I recommend against reading that blog, it's concentrated hippie dipshit stupid may actually cause you to beat your own brains out with a vegan's thigh-bone.
I would call Corey Doctorow sane, but I've read some of his non-fiction. Suffice to say, he's not a raw milk person, as best I can tell, and is generally rational and skeptical.
Still, Mark is indeed not the best informed of the four.
EDIT - Oh jesus, don't read the comments thread. These people are fucking stupid.
Just the latest comment as I edited this -
That means that pasteurized milk - BY FUCKING LAW - contains FIVE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE LESS BACTERIA than does raw milk.
Sometimes, I really just want to give up on this whole thing.
This, I think, is why so many scientists become bitter and jaded. The fight to generate an accurately informed public is monumental and exhausting.
Goddamn near punched him in the dick.
To be fair, though, he did ask me a few weeks ago if I was cooking a vegetarian option for the Australia day barbecue, to which I told him "Yeah, absolutely, we've got a vegetarian option: Fuck off."
That guy, by the way, is serious fucking business.
So there's some movement to try to regulate the stuff over there. It's slow going, though.
The farm environment contains countless reservoirs for pathogens; it's pretty easy to get a bug from the environment into raw milk.
Hypothetically, I guess if you raised the cows in a cleanroom, and handled the milk in a cleanroom, you might be OK. That would be prohibitively expensive, though.