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Morality

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  • edited March 2011
    Write a book, Pete. You probably could.
    Post edited by WindUpBird on
  • Write a book, Pete. You probably could.
    You all realize this is just a sad re-hash of conversations the FRC had over nights at RIT long, long ago.
  • edited March 2011
    I perceive the existence of thinking.
    Therefore, I must exist.
    Doesn't that fail similarly in connecting "I" with "perceiving"? To do so implicitly assumes an "I" that exists in the first place.
    Write a book, Pete. You probably could.
    You all realize this is just a sad re-hash of conversations the FRC had over nights at RIT long, long ago.
    Well, I missed out on the real thing, so I'll settle for a sad re-hash. Also, no, we didn't realize, at least not until you told us.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • Doesn't that fail similarly in connecting "I" with "perceiving"? To do so implicitly assumes an "I" that exists in the first place.
    Something was perceived by something. We don't even know for sure that they're the same thing wholly. But we all can prove to ourselves that something perceived something. That's all we've got to work with. One of those somethings is me (I). I have no other word for it. I have no other frame of reference.
  • edited March 2011
    To do so implicitly assumes an "I" that exists in the first place.
    Once again, it is nonsensical to deny the existence of self, as something must exist in order to deny that existence. There exists a concept of self, and whatever it is that possesses that concept is the self. But the self might not even be the thing that you think is aware of the self. As Rym said, there is no other way to refer to it.

    Further, to say "I doubt that I exist" still assumes the existence of an "I." So if my statement about "I" is flawed, your statement about denying the existence of "I" is also flawed, for the same reason. In essence, you've said nothing.

    We could further expand the statement:

    I am a thing that perceives the existence of thought; therefore, I exist.

    The first statement defines a term; in essence, it creates from scratch. The second statement follows logically.
    Write a book, Pete. You probably could.
    Working on it, but it's not at all what you think.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • My opinion of loopy-schoopy relativism on this point is that it's just laziness. If your answer to everything is that it's alright depending on what culture you're in if some culture, somewhere, even in the distant past, condoned or tolerated it, you don't have to think too hard about it, do you?
    No. People feel the need for an objective morality because they don't feel confident enough to judge someone or something without some higher power supporting them. As far as I'm concerned, slavery is wrong. I don't care whether it's objectively true.
    Nothing is right. Nothing is wrong. You fight for what you believe in. Isn't that enough?
  • edited March 2011
    I am a thing that perceives the existence of thought; therefore, I exist.

    The first statement defines a term; in essence, it creates from scratch. The second statement follows logically.
    I deny logic.
    While it seems to my sense of reason that the solipsistic hypothesis is somehow true, how do I know I can trust my sense of reason? Without reason, I cannot establish my ability to reason, and without reason I can know nothing.
    How can I know that Descartes' demon has not merely tricked me into believing that logic is a way to derive truth, when in fact it is not?
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • I deny logic.
    Stopped reading there.
  • I am a thing that perceives the existence of thought; therefore, I exist.

    The first statement defines a term; in essence, it creates from scratch. The second statement follows logically.
    I deny logic.h
    While it seems to my sense of reason that the solipsistic hypothesis is somehow true, how do I know I can trust my sense of reason? Without reason, I cannot establish my ability to reason, and without reason can know nothing.
    How can I know that Descartes' demon has not merely tricked me into believing that logic is a way to derive truth, when in fact it is not?
    This is pretty ridiculous.
  • I am a thing that perceives the existence of thought; therefore, I exist.

    The first statement defines a term; in essence, it creates from scratch. The second statement follows logically.
    I deny logic.
    While it seems to my sense of reason that the solipsistic hypothesis is somehow true, how do I know I can trust my sense of reason? Without reason, I cannot establish my ability to reason, and without reason can know nothing.
    How can I know that Descartes' demon has not merely tricked me into believing that logic is a way to derive truth, when in fact it is not?
    So you know nothing, can't prove anything, and are unsure of even your own existence.

    Congratulations on the most pointless argument ever made.
  • I deny logic.
    That may be the case, but you can't deny the delicious taste of cinnamon toast crunch.
  • Given "A and B, then C"
    A: "It's the cinnamon sugar swirls in every bite"
    B: "Taste you can see"
    C: "Delicious"

    Where A and B are qualities of D, and D = "Cinnamon Toast Crunch,"
    Then D is delicious.
  • I deny logic.
    image
  • edited March 2011
    Given "A and B, then C"
    A: "It's the cinnamon sugar swirls in every bite"
    B: "Taste you can see"
    C: "Delicious"

    Where A and B are qualities of D, and D = "Cinnamon Toast Crunch,"
    Then D is delicious.
    Cinnamon toast Crunch: Objectively better than logic.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • edited March 2011
    It's no less useful a point than solipsism. In fact, it makes more sense, because if you're going to be skeptical of every vestige of reality, it is simply inconsistent to withhold your skepticism from the foundations of logic, or, indeed, from your own skepticism.

    In either case, we build ourselves back up to reality on a pragmatic basis. However, I think the idea of "absolute certainty" is an unneccessary one; indeed, it is an outright harmful one. To assert absolute certainty of something means that you could not possibly change your mind, no matter what information was presented to you.

    Do you believe with absolute certainty that 2 is a prime number?
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • Congratulations on the most pointless argument ever made.
    That basically makes me a king among philosophers. Do I get a prize?
  • Congratulations on the most pointless argument ever made.
    That basically makes me a king among philosophers. Do I get a prize?
    Only if you can prove that the prize itself actually exists.
  • edited March 2011
    Congratulations on the most pointless argument ever made.
    That basically makes me a king among philosophers. Do I get a prize?
    Only if you can prove that the prize itself actually exists.
    What standard of proof? I don't need to be 100% certain of something to consider it "proven" for pragmatic purposes, just very certain. Evolution is not an 100% certainty, but it is for all intents and purposes "proven". I suspect that none of you are any different when it comes to a pragmatic approach to reality, even if you may tend to assert certainty with respect to some abstract concepts.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • I don't need to be 100% certain of something to consider it "proven" for pragmatic purposes.
    The contest rules stipulate 100% certainty.
  • Fuck that contest.
  • It'll be hard to prove that the prize exists to any degree of certainty because we're not giving you anything.
  • You're giving me your love; that's enough for me <3
  • While it seems to my sense of reason that the solipsistic hypothesis is somehow true, how do I know I can trust my sense of reason?
    What does it mean to "trust" your sense of reason? The mere fact that you doubt your sense of reason means that your sense of reason must exist, or else what would you be doubting?

    You can't know whether or not your reason is faulty, but that doesn't stop you from perceiving thoughts. That's the only thing that matters. You still perceive, so therefore, you must exist.
  • edited March 2011
    How do I know that I perceive?
    Even if I did, why would this mean that I exist?
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • How do I know for sure that I perceive?
    Even if I did, why would this mean that I exist?
    You know that you exist because you are able to create doubt about your existance, therefore you have created somehing that exists. Something cannot be created from something that does not exist, therefore you must exist.
  • edited March 2011
    You know that you exist because you are able to create doubt about your existance,
    How do I know that I am able to create doubt about my existence?
    Something cannot be created from something that does not exist
    Why?
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • edited March 2011
    You know that you exist because you are able to create doubt about your existence,
    How do I know that I am able to create doubt about my existence?
    The fact that you are asking whether or not you exist is evidence that you can.
    Something cannot be created from something that does not exist
    Why?
    Can you think of something that was created spontaneously from nothing?
    Post edited by progSHELL on
  • Even if I cannot think of a thing, that does not prove its impossibility.
  • Even if I cannot think of a thing, that does not prove its impossibility.
    Yes, but the fact that you have created doubt provides evidence of you, it's creator. In the same way that archeologists take the creations of past cultures as evidence that their creators existed, so to does your doubt indicate that you exist.
  • edited March 2011
    I agree with you in the sense of "evidence"; indeed, my thoughts are evidence of my existence. However, evidence is not proof.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
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