Ban on male circumcision

theknoxinator

Friend pointed me to this story talking about how San Francisco may put a law on the ballot to ban male circumcision before adulthood.

I know there was some discussion about this in the Morality thread, but I'm wondering how people here feel about having an outright ban on the practice.

Personally, I'm against the practice since the child has no say in the matter, and it is a 100% elective surgery, but I don't feel like it should be illegal to do it. With the way things are going, I feel like over time the numbers of males who do get circumcised as a baby will decrease to where it's no longer a normal thing.

zehaeva

An outright ban seems a bit strange, religious freedom and all that, but making it not standard procedure seems like a good thing in my opinion.

WindUpBird

Babies don't have a say in a lot of things. That's not sound reasoning. What is sound reasoning is the fact that the operation may cause nerve damage and the protection from STDs is not worth the risk in the first world. I'm not opposed to the ban. I'm not for it, either. I'm ultimately indifferent. I'd rather see it no longer be a standard practice by choice, rather than by force. All prohibition does is generate illegal or unsafe means of obtaining something, and circumcision is one of those things that it is definitely not safe to obtain illegally.

jtvh

Conceptually, this strikes me as somewhat like banning the chicken pox vaccine. There's some amount of risk in either direction (fairly small in either case), and reasonable arguments that if you're going to do it at all, it's better to do when they're young. In such cases it seems right that the state should trust the parent/guardian to make the decision.

TheWhaleShark

Now I'm going to make an uncharacteristic and specious argument.

So abortion is cool up through the end of the second trimester.

The relative difference in survivability and sentience between a second trimester baby and a newborn is, let's face it, not that much. A newborn can't really do anything. Left to its own devices, it will die. It's really a parasite, but it happens to not be attached to you. And really, that's only because you expel it and then we cut a cord.

So a newborn probably has just as much claim to individual rights and self-determination as does a second trimester fetus.

So if you support killing the thing before it's even born, why is it an issue to take off a little flap of skin?

EDIT: My real opinion is that circumcision is a non-issue and is so low on the priority list that we shouldn't even be having this discussion.

WindUpBird

EDIT: My real opinion is that male circumcision is a non-issue and is so low on the priority list that we shouldn't even be having this discussion.

open_sketchbook

I think getting worked up about male circumcision while female genital mutilation still exists is more or less the definition of butthurt.

dsf

why do people want to mutilate their babies penises?

Axel

Aesthetic, religion, rumor, old wives tales, etc.

Then again, is it really a big issue? I am...circumcised *cough cough* and it has caused me no problems, nor do I expect it to.

I would have to side with Pete on this one.

WindUpBird

why do people want to mutilate their babies penises?

Read the following:

I think getting worked up about male circumcision while female genital mutilation still exists is more or less the definition of butthurt.

Can you still have an orgasm and feel pleasure? Yes? Great. Because male circumcision is nowhere near the mutilation that occurs during the female equivalent, and talking it up like it is betrays a huge neglect for some of the world's more disgusting evils, as well as an extremely patriarchal worldview.

That may be the most feminist thing I've ever written.

TheWhaleShark

I think getting worked up about male circumcision while female genital mutilation still exists is more or less the definition of butthurt.

Privileged white males are like goddamn factories of butthurt.

WindUpBird

Conceptually, this strikes me as somewhat like banning the chicken pox vaccine. There's some amount of risk in either direction (fairly small in either case), and reasonable arguments that if you're going to do it at all, it's better to do when they're young. In such cases it seems right that the state should trust the parent/guardian to make the decision.

I got the chickenpox when I was 16, because as a kid I bitched about needles so much my mom was like "Fine, you'll get it at school, and you'll be sorry," and then I didn't get it for 11 years. When I did, I slept for 48 hours, had necrotic sores, and ran a fever of 104. I was hospitalized for a day on a morphine drip with neuralgia so terrible I was shaking and screaming (felt like I was being stabbed in the skull) and I didn't eat for days. My doctor told me if I had gotten it a year later it might have killed me.

Banning the chickenpox vaccine would be a death sentence to a lot of people, especially given the very high rate of herd immunity now that it is required for public schools.

dsf

why do people want to mutilate their babies penises?

Read the following:

I think getting worked up about male circumcision while female genital mutilation still exists is more or less the definition of butthurt.

Can you still have an orgasm and feel pleasure? Yes? Great. Because male circumcision is nowhere near the mutilation that occurs during the female equivalent, and talking it up like it is betrays a huge neglect for some of the world's more disgusting evils, as well as an extremely patriarchal worldview.

That may be the most feminist thing I've ever written.

why do people feel the need to mutilate their baby's penises?

I think maybe you should think about the fact that you are cutting a child's genitals because some god told a man 4000 years ago to do that. Why would anyone do male or female circumcision? Both seem pretty barbaric to me.

And the logic that was used in this argument is similar to saying that it's ok to do a bad thing if a more bad thing is being done somewhere else. It's like saying, "What you're mad about me killing 1 man when Hitler killed like 4 million?"

Cremlian

why do people feel the need to mutilate their baby's penises?

Because its fun?

Though I gotta say I was pretty happy that I was circumcised before I had a choice because well one, I didn't feel it (or remember it) and two I would never have agreed to it as an adult.

dsf

why do people feel the need to mutilate their baby's penises?

Because its fun?

Though I gotta say I was pretty happy that I was circumcised before I had a choice because well one, I didn't feel it (or remember it) and two I would never have agreed to it as an adult.

I'm not circumcised, I never would get circumcised and I would never do it to my child.

Would you be mad if someone walked up to you with a razor and cut your arm and said, "sorry, my god thinks this will save you." And then disinfected it and bandaged it for you? Circumcision does absolutely nothing for you other then mark you as part of Abraham's tribe. Scott, of all people, as an atheist I have no idea why you buy into this practice. I think you would be more upset if someone tried to pour water over your child's head than if some sliced your child's penis with a razor...

P_TOG

It's like saying, "What you're mad about me killing 1 man when Hitler killed like 4 million?"

Where did this mountain come from? Last time I was here, it was just a little molehill.
I have no real stance on circumcision, other than "let people do what they want." My parents decided to have it done to me, and I'm pretty sure there have been no major things in my life that happened because of it.

Cremlian

Would you be mad if someone walked up to you with a razor and cut your arm and said, "sorry, my god thinks this will save you." And then disinfected it and bandaged it for you? Circumcision does absolutely nothing for you other then mark you as part of Abraham's tribe. Scott, of all people, as an atheist I have no idea why you buy into this practice.

It definitely helps in maintenance.

dsf

does it really? is cleaning your penis harder than the rest of your body?

(and I can tell you are playing devil's advocate, which is probably a good thing since no one on the pro side has been able to state any sort of rational argument yet ;p)

jtvh

Banning the chickenpox vaccine would be a death sentence to a lot of people, especially given the very high rate of herd immunity now that it is required for public schools.

Sorry you went through that. It must have been awful.

I've never had to submit documentation of my kid's chicken pox vaccination to the public school he goes to, and his pediatrician said it was optional. So just out of curiosity I checked the CDC and found this the chicken pox vaccine (or evidence of having already had chicken pox) is mandatory in 45 states.

I've seen a few friends get chicken pox in their 40s (at which point they seem to call it shingles). It's been pretty dreadful for them. The worrisome thing for me is that if a kid gets the chicken pox vaccine (as opposed to developing immunity through exposure), the immunity fades over time, potentially leaving them at greater risk in mid-life and beyond. But I also know that no vaccine is 100% effective.

But back to the main topic:

why do people want to mutilate their babies penises?

I gotta say, the most heartfelt debates I've ever seen on this topic have been among pregnant women, in particular the mailing list I was on in 1996 of ~175 women due to give birth in July of that year. We all hashed and rehashed the medical evidence to death, debated the cultural issues, worried about the kid looking "different" in the locker room, wondered about future effects on sexuality, etc.

Out of respect for my son's privacy I won't disclose what my personal opinion is on the topic. But I will say it's a question on which reasonable people can and do differ.

Axel

There's no rational argument for it. A lot of the rational arguments against it fall kind of flat, other than it's something we're born with.
Again, I feel it's a non-issue. I'm not pro or con, I'm just like...Whatever.

Dave

I've got a rational argument for you: there's dudes out there with better boners than me and that is NOT COOL.

open_sketchbook

...Which side is that arguing for?

Dave

I think all men born after me should have to be circumcised so I don't feel bad.

Nuri

does it really? is cleaning your penis harder than the rest of your body?

(and I can tell you are playing devil's advocate, which is probably a good thing since no one on the pro side has been able to state any sort of rational argument yet ;p)

I have two good arguments.

1. It is easier to clean (YES, it is. I have 4 brothers and I had to change diapers for 3 of them. Maybe doing it yourself is easy enough, but when you are wiping down a baby, it is way easier if there's not a skin flap you have to clean around.)

2. It makes cuter penises that are easier to handle. Plus, oral sex on an uncircumcised dude is pretty gross in my experience.

Maybe you don't agree with the values I hold that make those good reasons because they are subjective, but that doesn't make them any less valid.

open_sketchbook

I think I speak for everyone when I say that more and better blowjobs are reason enough to be pro-circumcision.
/humour mode

Axel

Also: Are you okay with piercings? Granted, we're not giving piercings to babies who can't consent, but circumcision is a similar idea, except it actually has some purpose, as a lot of people have their own personal reasons why they find it to be a good/useful practice. If you're upset about mutilation, there's a lot of mutilation out there to be upset about.

dsf

Out of respect for my son's privacy I won't disclose what my personal opinion is on the topic. But I will say it's a question on which reasonable people can and do differ.

Out of respect for your level headed statement, I will tone down my argument. My point is: It just seems to me that circumcision is an outdated religious practice that really has no place in the modern world. And trust me, kids in locker rooms are looking anywhere other than at other kid's penises. No one would really notice and if they did say something to me about it I would have said,"why are you staring at my dick?" Most of my girlfriend's didn't even notice until I told them. I never once thought to myself, "Man my cock takes so long to clean". All those reasons for doing it are really just whitewashing the fact that it is in fact an outdated religious practice that makes no sense. And honestly when I make these arguments I feel the same way when I am arguing with a birther about Obama's Birth certificate. All I want to do is tell them that they are racist and are looking for any reason(other than the fact he is black) to knock him, because the moment they say how they really feel, they lose any sort of legitimacy due to the fact that they are a bigot. I have never seen a really good reason other that,"GOD WANTS ME TO", for mutilating any child's genitals.

dsf

does it really? is cleaning your penis harder than the rest of your body?

(and I can tell you are playing devil's advocate, which is probably a good thing since no one on the pro side has been able to state any sort of rational argument yet ;p)

I have two good arguments.

1. It is easier to clean (YES, it is. I have 4 brothers and I had to change diapers for 3 of them. Maybe doing it yourself is easy enough, but when you are wiping down a baby, it is way easier if there's not a skin flap you have to clean around.)

2. It makes cuter penises that are easier to handle. Plus, oral sex on an uncircumcised dude is pretty gross in my experience.

Maybe you don't agree with the values I hold that make those good reasons because they are subjective, but that doesn't make them any less valid.

if it's a religious reason then say so that's all.

I've never given oral to a circumcised female, so I guess I can't say which one is more/less gross

theknoxinator

2. It makes cuter penises that are easier to handle. Plus, oral sex on an uncircumcised dude is pretty gross in my experience.

All of my female friends, who are willing to share, say the same thing.

dsf

2. It makes cuter penises that are easier to handle. Plus, oral sex on an uncircumcised dude is pretty gross in my experience.

All of my female friends, who are willing to share, say the same thing.

just sounds pretty shallow

Nuri

I've never given oral to a circumcised female, so I guess I can't say which one is more/less gross

Okay, it's totally different. A circumcized woman would be like you without your GLANS. The foreskin is not the same as the clit. A more appropriate comparison would be a woman who shaves or waxes so there is no hair to protect her clit from the rubbing of her clothing.