Can you imagine if you were actually MORE sensitive? I mean jesus... most guys can't last very long as it is. Why would I want to make sex SHORTER? I say let's desensitize that shit so we can have marathon sex!
Emily; Bullshit. It hurt like a bitch when I got my ears pierced. I think it depends on the person.
Pete; Yeah, your penis is way more attractive all smooth and rounded. I'm glad we are in agreement on this.
My anecdotal evidence: I was about 3 when I developed a painful penile infection. I had to get circumcised, at three, and because I was so 'old' it scarred oddly. The infection, subsequent hospital visit, and aftermath were not very fun for me. As a result my younger brother got a bris shortly after birth.
On the other hand: I had a fairly good friend who was very gay and obsessed with foreskin. Loved it, loved playing with it, made it a running joke such that it was the most said word (Above 'fuck', even) in our IRC channel for a long time. To him, circumcisions were a crime against nature. I can't dispute his point of view; It's a valid opinion.
The real problem is that a decision has to be made on a very limited timeframe, that is permanent, and with no way of determining the consequences. Studies have shown clear advantages to both options. Hopefully, medical technology will one day advance to the point where this is no longer a problem, and you'll be able to get foreskin grafts and painless circumcisions for reasonable prices.
Can you imagine if you were actually MORE sensitive? I mean jesus... most guys can't last very long as it is. Why would I want to make sex SHORTER? I say let's desensitize that shit so we can have marathon sex!
Emily; Bullshit. It hurt like a bitch when I got my ears pierced. I think it depends on the person.
Pete; Yeah, your penis is way more attractive all smooth and rounded. I'm glad we are in agreement on this.
I usually go for a few hours... or until the girl is worn out...
San Francisco may put a law on the ballot to ban male circumcision before adulthood.
Good. Fuck that shit.
Seriously, not one of you has given any reason whatsoever to mutilate a child's penis. Not one. "Easier to clean?" Fuck you guys. That's maybe, MAYBE, a reason to get a circumcision once you are old enough to make the decision yourself, but it's not a reason to mutilate your own child! Hey, brushing my childs teeth is such hard thing to do, let's rip them out and get them dentures. Much easier to clean!
I also love the hypocrisy in this thread being displayed, as it is commonplace outside the ivory tower as well: Female circumcision is a horrible, gruesome crime. Male circumcision is A-OK! Jesus fucking tapdancing cthulhu, they're both horrible fucking mutilations! You can also not make a distinction based on gender. Either mutilating a childs genitalia is okay for both genders, or for neither!
The argument about cleaning is definitely weak as hell; I'd know, being uncircumcised. There are definite medical reasons for circumcision, but in the absence of those, the only good reason for circumcision I see is if it improves sex. The question is, does it really?
The argument about cleaning is definitely weak as hell; I'd know, being uncircumcised. There are definite medical reasons for circumcision, but in the absence of those, the only good reason for circumcision I see is if it improves sex. The question is, does it really?
We definitely need a study with some volunteers stat! :-p
I would note for the "Cleaning" issue two points -
First, It's not hard to clean. How do you wash your dick? I'm guessing a couple of swipes with a soapy hand or some shower gel, because if you use a hard scrubbing brush and mechanic's soap, I don't want to fucking hear about it, Jesus, what the fuck is wrong with you? When you're not circumcised, the procedure is pretty much identical - it's not exactly hard to pull back a foreskin. I'm not even sure I have a word for how small the extra effort is, and even then, you don't see it that way if you're not(generally, of course, there are occasionally the odd ones out) because it's what you've been doing the whole time anyway. It's like owning a gun - a responsible owner will keep it clean and well maintained.
Second, by the time your son hits puberty, you won't have to encourage him to clean it, he'll be cleaning it pretty much every time he steps into the shower, probably at length. A soapy wank still counts.
Either mutilating a childs genitalia is okay for both genders, or for neither!
Implying the excision of the most dense bundle of nerves in the female body with a knife (or occasionally an old razor or a piece of glass), denying the woman of any pleasure for her entire life, is in any fucking way equitable to male circumcision, the excised part most guys hardly miss.
I also love the hypocrisy in this thread being displayed, as it is commonplace outside the ivory tower as well: Female circumcision is a horrible, gruesome crime. Male circumcision is A-OK! Jesus fucking tapdancing cthulhu, they're both horrible fucking mutilations! You can also not make a distinction based on gender. Either mutilating a childs genitalia is okay for both genders, or for neither!
To paraphrase somebody else in the thread, cutting off a flap of skin very different cutting out the clitoris, and sometimes even the entire labia followed by sealing the whole vagina shut. My mutilated penis still works pretty well, especially compared to your average mutilated vagina.
I'd encourage anyone here (mostly men, I'd note, but that would be irrelevant and a strawman) equating male circumcision to female circumcision to go read Ayan Hirsi Ali's Infidel, an autobiography in which the author discusses her own tribal-Islamic (read: rusty razor, heat sterilization, no anaesthetic) female genital mutilation in Somalia, and the lifelong effects it has had upon her.
Once you are able to think clearly and breathe normally, ask yourself if what she experienced is remotely akin to your idiotic obsession with the "horrible fucking mutilation" of having your foreskin removed as an infant in a hospital setting.
1. Removing the foreskin is also removing a distinct form of pleasure for the child for its entire life. 2. You are still mutilating a child's genitalia in either case.
I wasn't talking about severity of the procedure or ramifications, but about the principal. Apparently you guys are completely, and rightfully outraged that one gender is getting mutilated by their parents on a regular basis, and the other gender where a similar practice is also employed is completely indifferent to you guys. That is fucking hypocrisy at its finest, based entirely on sexism.
I'd encourage anyone here equating male circumcision to female circumcision to go read Ayan Hirsi Ali's Infidel, an autobiography in which the author discusses her own tribal-Islamic (read: rusty razor, heat sterilization, no anaesthetic) female genital mutilation in Somalia, and the lifelong effects it has had upon her.
Once you are able to think clearly and breathe normally, ask yourself if what she experienced is remotely akin to your idiotic obsession with the "horrible fucking mutilation" of having your foreskin removed as an infant in a hospital setting.
Ahhh, argument from circumstance. I guess you'd be okay with female circumcision if it was common practice in the western world, and you'd be against male circumcision if it happened in a less civilized place with a rusty razor and without anesthetics.
While chaos's argument is a bit more extreme than the words I would use, I completely agree on the fact that circumcision involves the mutilation of a child's genitals, and that by itself is seriously morally and ethically fucked up. It's not a fair comparison between female and male circumcision, for reasons that have been established, and I don't think that any of us disagree that female circumcision is all kinds of wrong. That said, performing any sort of bodily mutilation on a child, save for procedures that have a distinct *need* to be performed, is wrong as hell in my mind. Keep in mind, I only think bodily mutilation of a child can possibly be acceptable in serious circumstances, not for flimsy reasons like "it looks better," "it improves sex," or (fucking really, you guys?) "it's easier to clean." I mean, for fuck's sake, if it makes sex better, let the kid make that choice when he actually *gives* a shit.
I'd encourage anyone here equating male circumcision to female circumcision to go read Ayan Hirsi Ali's Infidel, an autobiography in which the author discusses her own tribal-Islamic (read: rusty razor, heat sterilization, no anaesthetic) female genital mutilation in Somalia, and the lifelong effects it has had upon her.
Once you are able to think clearly and breathe normally, ask yourself if what she experienced is remotely akin to your idiotic obsession with the "horrible fucking mutilation" of having your foreskin removed as an infant in a hospital setting.
Ahhh, argument from circumstance. I guess you'd be okay with female circumcision if it was common practice in the western world, and you'd be against male circumcision if it happened in a less civilized place with a rusty razor and without anesthetics.
No. Read the fucking book. She can't even have an orgasm.Some women can't bear children either; too much scarring.
Don't presume to know my opinions on this matter. I hate female mutilation because it destroy lives. It wrecks them outright, robs them of a sex life and sometimes the ability to have kids, and has in more than one case driven a woman mad due to the pain of nerve severance.
I'm against tribal male circumcision, too. But that's another story. Don't ever, ever delude yourself into thinking that a circumcised man lives under remotely the same conditions that a circumcised woman does. It's medically, and often culturally, simply untrue.
I'm done with this argument. Can't take the more distilled form of /b/ this argument always carries in its wake.
And you're still way fucking wrong. Female circumcision is physically different than male circumcision. There is no equivalence between the two at fucking all.
I'm a goddamn scientist. I know about the structures in question in painstaking detail.
But here's the correct analogy:
Female circumcision as is practiced in most countries - where they remove the clitoris - is the equivalent of hacking off your fucking glans. Literally. The glans and the clitoris are the same structure.
No, really, there is absolutely no comparison between the two practices.
Further, saying that a modern Western medical practice is "mutilation" is absolutely asinine. It's a surgical procedure performed with a great deal of skill and care, not some crazy witch doctor hacking at shit with rusty implements. It's no more "mutilation" than any goddamn surgery performed by any medical professional in the modern world. It is no more mutilation than any plastic surgery. It is no more mutilation than suturing up a wound.
And yes, we are talking about the circumstance of female circumcision. What of it? Even if the circumstances were improved, you'd still have the radical physical differences between the two practices that put them on totally different playing fields.
tl;dr: Get your head out of your ass. Male circumcision is a non-issue. If you make it into one, you're wrong.
To clarify my position on male and female circumcision: Apparently a lot of people, including people in this forum, believe that there is some sort of distinction between the two and male circumcision can be okay because it isn't "as bad" as female circumcision. However, that isn't a fucking argument because both can be terrible fucking crimes independent of the other even existing. Even if no male was ever circumcised, female circumcision would be a terrible thing, and the same is true in reverse. I wasn't making an argument that they're both equally bad, but that regardless of the severity, they're both bad things that shouldn't be supported. Yet, I see a bunch of hypocrites, here and on the outside world, support one and rightfully abhor the other.
Female circumcision as is practiced in most countries - where they remove the clitoris - is the equivalent of hacking off your fucking glans. Literally. The glans and the clitoris are the same structure.
Further, saying that a modern Western medical practice is "mutilation" is absolutely asinine. It's a surgical procedure performed with a great deal of skill and care, not some crazy witch doctor hacking at shit with rusty implements.
It is elective, and without considering the position of the person the procedure is being performed on, removal of a body part. That is the fucking definition of mutilation. You may be a scientist, but you are also a royal fucktard in that regard.
Comments
Emily; Bullshit. It hurt like a bitch when I got my ears pierced. I think it depends on the person.
Pete; Yeah, your penis is way more attractive all smooth and rounded. I'm glad we are in agreement on this.
I was about 3 when I developed a painful penile infection. I had to get circumcised, at three, and because I was so 'old' it scarred oddly. The infection, subsequent hospital visit, and aftermath were not very fun for me. As a result my younger brother got a bris shortly after birth.
On the other hand:
I had a fairly good friend who was very gay and obsessed with foreskin. Loved it, loved playing with it, made it a running joke such that it was the most said word (Above 'fuck', even) in our IRC channel for a long time. To him, circumcisions were a crime against nature. I can't dispute his point of view; It's a valid opinion.
The real problem is that a decision has to be made on a very limited timeframe, that is permanent, and with no way of determining the consequences. Studies have shown clear advantages to both options. Hopefully, medical technology will one day advance to the point where this is no longer a problem, and you'll be able to get foreskin grafts and painless circumcisions for reasonable prices.
Seriously, not one of you has given any reason whatsoever to mutilate a child's penis. Not one. "Easier to clean?" Fuck you guys. That's maybe, MAYBE, a reason to get a circumcision once you are old enough to make the decision yourself, but it's not a reason to mutilate your own child! Hey, brushing my childs teeth is such hard thing to do, let's rip them out and get them dentures. Much easier to clean!
I also love the hypocrisy in this thread being displayed, as it is commonplace outside the ivory tower as well: Female circumcision is a horrible, gruesome crime. Male circumcision is A-OK!
Jesus fucking tapdancing cthulhu, they're both horrible fucking mutilations! You can also not make a distinction based on gender. Either mutilating a childs genitalia is okay for both genders, or for neither!
First, It's not hard to clean. How do you wash your dick? I'm guessing a couple of swipes with a soapy hand or some shower gel, because if you use a hard scrubbing brush and mechanic's soap, I don't want to fucking hear about it, Jesus, what the fuck is wrong with you? When you're not circumcised, the procedure is pretty much identical - it's not exactly hard to pull back a foreskin. I'm not even sure I have a word for how small the extra effort is, and even then, you don't see it that way if you're not(generally, of course, there are occasionally the odd ones out) because it's what you've been doing the whole time anyway. It's like owning a gun - a responsible owner will keep it clean and well maintained.
Second, by the time your son hits puberty, you won't have to encourage him to clean it, he'll be cleaning it pretty much every time he steps into the shower, probably at length. A soapy wank still counts.
Yeah, okay.
EDIT: Ninja'd by 13 seconds.
Once you are able to think clearly and breathe normally, ask yourself if what she experienced is remotely akin to your idiotic obsession with the "horrible fucking mutilation" of having your foreskin removed as an infant in a hospital setting.
2. You are still mutilating a child's genitalia in either case.
I wasn't talking about severity of the procedure or ramifications, but about the principal. Apparently you guys are completely, and rightfully outraged that one gender is getting mutilated by their parents on a regular basis, and the other gender where a similar practice is also employed is completely indifferent to you guys. That is fucking hypocrisy at its finest, based entirely on sexism.
Don't presume to know my opinions on this matter. I hate female mutilation because it destroy lives. It wrecks them outright, robs them of a sex life and sometimes the ability to have kids, and has in more than one case driven a woman mad due to the pain of nerve severance.
I'm against tribal male circumcision, too. But that's another story. Don't ever, ever delude yourself into thinking that a circumcised man lives under remotely the same conditions that a circumcised woman does. It's medically, and often culturally, simply untrue.
I'm done with this argument. Can't take the more distilled form of /b/ this argument always carries in its wake.
I'm a goddamn scientist. I know about the structures in question in painstaking detail.
But here's the correct analogy:
Female circumcision as is practiced in most countries - where they remove the clitoris - is the equivalent of hacking off your fucking glans. Literally. The glans and the clitoris are the same structure.
No, really, there is absolutely no comparison between the two practices.
Further, saying that a modern Western medical practice is "mutilation" is absolutely asinine. It's a surgical procedure performed with a great deal of skill and care, not some crazy witch doctor hacking at shit with rusty implements. It's no more "mutilation" than any goddamn surgery performed by any medical professional in the modern world. It is no more mutilation than any plastic surgery. It is no more mutilation than suturing up a wound.
And yes, we are talking about the circumstance of female circumcision. What of it? Even if the circumstances were improved, you'd still have the radical physical differences between the two practices that put them on totally different playing fields.
tl;dr: Get your head out of your ass. Male circumcision is a non-issue. If you make it into one, you're wrong.
More on that later, I now have to go to work.