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Is using a strategy guide / FAQ cheating?

edited May 2011 in Video Games
Judge John Hodgman covered this topic in his latest episode http://www.maximumfun.org/judge-john-hodgman/judge-john-hodgman-episode-22-tips-and-tricks-and-justice

The Joystiq poll on the issue is extremely close.

http://www.joystiq.com/2011/05/03/judge-john-hodgman-decides-is-using-a-strategy-guide-cheatin/

I figure that makes for a pretty good thread.

The way I see it, cheating is defined as breaking the rules of a game. For example using a corked bat is directly contrary to the written rules of baseball. The source code of a video game IS the rules of that game. As long as you do not modify the game, or the hardware it runs on, you are not cheating. Using an aimbot in an FPS would be cheating because you have modified the game. Reading a FAQ that tells you the optimal build order for an RTS is not cheating.

There is a problem with this when it comes to games of knowledge. Take for example Carmen Sandiego. It's a knowledge game. It tests to see if you can tell where the criminal has escaped to based on clues about geography and history. You could just look up all the answers. You haven't modified the source code of the game, but in this case I think you have cheated. Since you bypassed the intent of the game, to test your skill of knowledge, with a test of research skills instead.

Then there is even an exception to the exception. Sometimes there is a game of knowledge, but the knowledge isn't the answer, it's the rules of the game. A lot of games keep their rules a secret. The best example is Pokemon with its EV/IV training nonsense. The rules of the game are not told to you anywhere other than FAQs. Is it cheating to read those FAQs even though they give you the hidden knowledge for a game that tests knowledge and effort? You're bypassing the knowledge part of the game, and now only testing effort and patience, that is true. However, I do not think it is cheating, under any circumstance, to read the rules of a game you are playing. Imagine playing a board game and being told it was cheating to read the rule book. That can't possibly be classified as cheating. If a game has to keep its rules secret to be worthwhile, that is an extreme failure of that game, and you probably shouldn't play it much, if at all.

Or what if we even use the example from the podcast of Mega Man X. Obviously using save states or game-genie type codes is cheating. But is it cheating to look up the best boss battle order? There is a small knowledge component to the game, but most of the game is about execution. I don't think it's cheating to look up the boss order, as the weaknesses of each boss are part of the rules of the game and shouldn't be kept secret. Yet, it was clearly the intent of the game's creators that the player should discover those rules through trial and error.
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Comments

  • In a single player game, whatever you want to do for fun is up to you as long as you aren't trying to deceive others into thinking you did it with an unmodified system.

    I can't think of a multiplayer game where knowing things is going to help you but it isn't stuff to do with hidden mechanics they should have told you already.
  • edited May 2011
    In a single player game, whatever you want to do for fun is up to you as long as you aren't trying to deceive others into thinking you did it with an unmodified system.
    I'm not asking whether it's OK or not. I also have no care what anyone does in a single player game. The question is whether it counts as cheating or not.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • If the knowledge significantly increases your chances of success or the rate at which you succeed, then it's cheating.

    If the knowledge doesn't affect the chance of success, but reduces the amount of time to success, that's not cheating.
  • If the knowledge significantly increases your chances of success or the rate at which you succeed, then it's cheating.

    If the knowledge doesn't affect the chance of success, but reduces the amount of time to success, that's not cheating.
    If you fundamentally break the mechanics of the game code (aimbots, wallhacks, etc.) it's cheating. If you merely exploit the way the game is programmed, it's not cheating. Anything meta with regards to outside knowledge is not cheating.
  • edited May 2011
    If the knowledge significantly increases your chances of success or the rate at which you succeed, then it's cheating.
    What kind of knowledge could you gain from an FAQ that you wouldn't be able to get from playing the game as it is. The guy who wrote the FAQ had to work these things out somehow.

    There was in interesting case where someone took all the build times for Starcraft 2 buildings and had a program crunch the numbers which gave this utterly bizarre build order which was technically the fastest way to get to full army strength.

    @Scott: I don't give a damn.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • edited May 2011
    What if I have a document that tells me exactly what moves to make in exactly what order to get an S on every map in every Advance Wars? It's not cheating because I'm not breaking the rules of Advance Wars. I'm playing an unmodified version on the original hardware. However, I have bypassed all the difficult tests of strategic and tactical decision making with a trivially easy test of reading and following instructions.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • RymRym
    edited May 2011
    If the knowledge significantly increases your chances of success or the rate at which you succeed, then it's cheating.
    But said knowledge could be gleaned on your own. Is it cheating to study professional skiing technique before skiing competitively?
    There was in interesting case where someone took all the build times for Starcraft 2 buildings and had a program crunch the numbers which gave this utterly bizarre build order which was technically the fastest way to get to full army strength.
    Extant information. Solving a game isn't cheating. Using someone else's solution also isn't cheating, so long as you are able to actually execute it (and execution is part of the rules).
    Post edited by Rym on
  • I don't see it as cheating. As you said, the code dictates the rules, and you are not breaking any.

    FAQs do not bring up questions of cheating, they bring up questions of how one experiences a game. The people voting for FAQs as cheating in that poll probably believe that someone who uses a guide to progress through a game is cheating themselves of the experience.

    This goes back to the "video games as art" debate. FAQs don't break the rules, but they take away the sense of discovery and may cause you to play in ways the artist never intended. If you want to do that, then fine, it's your choice. I would compare it to watching a film in fullscreen pan & scan mode. You are slicing off part of the experience, but if you didn't care about that portion, then you got what you wanted.

    As always, these sorts of things must be taken in moderation. There is never a right/wrong answer on whether someone should use an FAQ. If the game is largely crap with some nugget of goodness in the middle, the FAQ just helps you cut through the crap. Great. I would never use one for a game that I knew was of the highest quality, for the same reasons I wouldn't watch an Oscar picture in pan & scan.
  • edited May 2011
    Reading a guide = Accelerating your learning Therefore The worst you are doing is simulating playing from the point of view of someone replaying the game.

    The Starcraft thing was more interesting than anything else, it's like the absolute guide to Pacman's inner workings.

    I think the opposite "Is knowledge cheating?" is actually true. A multiplayer game should in no way restrict you from knowing everything you need to play the game the best you can from the get go. You could make games where the Steam overlay will pop up straight to the wiki at the press of a button (Prima can roger themselves.).

    Left4Dead 2 is a pretty bad offender in that I couldn't tell what the strengths of each of the weapons are without looking it up as I was too busy shooting zombies. E.g. The sand coloured assault rifles main strength is that it looses very little accuracy while moving.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • Scott, what about Mao? Hidden rules are part of the rules.
  • Scott, what about Mao? Hidden rules are part of the rules.
    Games like that are fundamentally broken or, more precisely, are effectively always being played. Discovering and reading the rules, or seeking them out on your own, is not against the rules of life, but it's against the rules of the game.

    If I break the rules of Monopoly outside of a game of Monopoly... wait, that's impossible. If you read the rules to a game like this, and consider that to be cheating, then you agree that the person in question was always playing the game from the moment of his birth.

    Petals Around the Rose is similar.
  • Mao breaks down with the problem that you can break the rules outside a game.
    I do like the idea of a game as a satire on that kind of secret society concept.
  • you can break the rules outside a game.
    This is patently impossible. A rule must be contextual to be broken. Either the rule applies, and the game extended into the context, or the rule does not apply, and thus is not broken. ;^)

    Games like that can still be fun. They're incomplete information games. Play them with your friends. Make up your own Mao and run it. I became a Potentate of the Rose back when I worked at IBM, and I still run the game for people.
  • Technically, if you made a game where all the rules are randomised each game or round and known only to the computer, you could have some fun.
  • It's not cheating, it's just ruining the point of the game. It's like having a robut color all the pages in the coloring book for you. Frankly, I've never understood using a strategy guide unless you are stuck and unable to continue without a nudge. That used to be much more relevant with linear NES games, and I remember finally caving in third grade and grabbing the Nintendo Power for help with a Castlevania boss.
  • Context is definitely the most important. If I used a corked bat for fun on the practice field, and not in a real game, I'm obviously not cheating. Likewise, if Mau has a rule against reading the rules, I can't be cheating if I read the rules before or after playing Mau. The rules of a game can't apply to you when you aren't presently playing the game.

    Also, this relates very closely to games like Shadows over Camelot which have stupid and broken rules preventing certain communication, but no other communication. It's just really awful game design.
  • edited May 2011
    Even in a single player game: Making a somewhat important secret a complete fluke to find is very bad. Small silly stuff is fine, but not major forks in the plot.

    In a more extreme case: You should be able to see a game's ending without need for a guide.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • Even in a single player game: Making a somewhat important secret a complete fluke to find is very bad. Small silly stuff is fine, but not major forks in the plot.
    Well this is exactly the discussion we had about Portal 2. Obviously you can make a video game hard by making execution difficult, such as in Super Meat Boy.

    However, in a game of puzzles or knowledge how do you make it difficult without making it obtuse? Portal could easily make a chamber very hard by hiding a button somewhere you won't notice it, but that's not legitimately hard is it? It's bullshit hard. But if a game is designed so well as to have no bullshit, how can it still ramp up the difficulty level?
  • Here's a related question. Is it piracy to watch someone else play through a game rather than playing it yourself?

    I believe I pirated Poker Night at the Inventory on Youtube.
  • For example using a corked bat is directly contrary to the written rules of baseball.
    Which is kinda hilarious, since corking your bad actually makes it perform worse. And that there is nothing in the rules against just using a lighter bat and not being stupid.
  • However, in a game of puzzles or knowledge how do you make it difficult without making it obtuse?
    Puzzles really rely on the honor system. I mean, I can just look up the solution to a puzzle. Sure. That's not the point of the thing.

    Do puzzles count as games?
  • Do puzzles count as games?
    Depends. Advance Wars against the AI without fog of war is a 100% deterministic puzzle. Even against a human, it's effectively deterministic and effectively a puzzle.

    Play on a small map, and I can actually chart the specific optimal solutions to several.
  • edited May 2011
    Do puzzles count as games?
    Not in game theory. In game theory all single-player games are puzzles, and not games. A game in that sense requires there to be at least one other decision making agent opposing you in the game.

    When an AI is involved it gets tricky. The AI could be viewed as an opposing player, making it a game. It could also be viewed as just a really complex and varied puzzle, since all existing AIs are deterministic in nature. I prefer the latter. Single player games are puzzles and/or simulations of actual games (counter-strike with bots).
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • epends. Advance Wars against the AI without fog of war is a 100% deterministic puzzle.
    Only if you know the rules of the AI, otherwise there are still probabilities when calculating the Nash Equilibria.
    Even against a human, it's effectively deterministic and effectively a puzzle.
    See above, but even more so.
    It could also be viewed as just a really complex and varied puzzle, since all existing AIs are deterministic in nature.
    Not true, there are many AI with operate under a Bayesian belief net or some form of a hidden Markov model.
  • Obviously you can make a video game hard by making execution difficult, such as in Super Meat Boy.
    A game doesn't need contain only one difficulty. If you make it obvious that a player can take a more difficult route for some kind of status reward, people will make their own challenges. For instance: You mark certain platforms as reducing the player's rank if stepped on.
  • Only if you know the rules of the AI, otherwise there are still probabilities when calculating the Nash Equilibria.
    The Advance Wars AI is simplistic enough that you can graph all possible probability paths and each has a discrete solution. Even with random play, there are guaranteed-win paths for one or more "players" on many maps. I spent the better part of the evening a few nights ago proving that on two small maps in Advance Wars DS.

    Game-theory-precise, a "decision" is being made. But practically, the game is a puzzle. Add fog-of-war, making the game imperfect, and the "puzzle" aspect is heavily mitigated.
  • The Advance Wars AI is simplistic enough that you can graph all possible probability paths and each has a discrete solution. Even with random play, there are guaranteed-win paths for one or more "players" on many maps. I spent the better part of the evening a few nights ago proving that on two small maps in Advance Wars DS.
    Given how many units are fielded during a game, then number of spaces said units move, the possibilities for allocation of funds, and battle outcomes, my gut feeling tells me the problem becomes intractable very quickly. But then again, maybe your proof will show me otherwise if you post it.
  • RymRym
    edited May 2011
    my gut feeling tells me the problem becomes intractable very quickly.
    It does. I've mapped out weak solutions to maps smaller than 24x24 with limited numbers of cities and no starting units. (In all of these cases, Orange could force a win).

    Anything higher would require brute computational force for even a weak solution in short order.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • Your goal in playing the game is important too. In a multiplayer game, it depends on the expectations between the players. If it is a single player game, who the fuck cares? Why would you play a knowledge game like Carmen Sandiego single player with a FAQ? It would be boring as shit. In other games, like platformers and RPGs, sometimes you get stuck on something and can't figure it out. FAQs come in handy there because they can give you the nudge you need in the right direction. You don't have to use them to the exclusion of all effort; you can just use them when you otherwise would have quit the game because you can't figure out where to go next.
  • It does. I've mapped out weak solutions to maps smaller than 24x24 with limited numbers of cities and no starting units. (In all of these cases, Orange could force a win).
    Oh, well "approximations" don't exactly count as discrete solutions. ~_^
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