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A basic income for everyone

edited May 2011 in Politics
It's been tried, and the results are interesting.
From the articleReading through the final report, some striking figures come up: Household poverty was halved in one year, child malnutrition was cut from 42% to 10% and school dropouts fell from 40% to zero. The overall crime rate fell by 42% and lifestock ownership increased. At the same time, the rate of those engaged in income generating activities rose by 10% - refuting the claim that a basic income would make people lazy.
Of course proponents of BIG have long been arguing the benefits of this idea, personally I think the biggest obstacle to implementing this sort of scheme in Europe or the USA is not the disputation between the sides arguing beneficial or harmfull outcomes of this idea, but rather the fact that in western developed nations no-one wants to admit that there may be a part of the population that genuinely needs this sort of support; it is hard to admit to yourself that in a nation as great as your own there are people who are relatively as badly off as people in Namibia (or if there are, then it certainly is their own damn fault and they deserve it).
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Comments

  • I'm a huge proponent of guaranteed universal employment, which could feasibly achieve similar ends. I worry that the US is too, for lack of a better word, fucked, politically, to ever even consider any manner of radical social or economic change of any kind.
  • guaranteed universal employment
    what Timo is referring to is guaranteed income, not employment. In theory, everyone could just say "fuck it" and do nothing. The intriguing result of the experiment is that this didn't happen.

    This experiment was done in Dauphin Manitoba 35 years ago and had similar results.
  • what Timo is referring to is guaranteed income, not employment.
    I'm well aware. Note that I said "guaranteed universal employment, which could feasibly achieve similar ends."
  • edited May 2011
    I'd say its VERY different. Universal employment implies things like make work projects, subsidies to businesses for taking on more people than they need, employee quotas for larger companies and a bureaucracy to track it all. There is no "fuck it" option.
    Post edited by DevilUknow on
  • A certain amount of unemployment is needed in a healthy economy; companies need a buffer zone of people to hire when they expand, a limited degree of competition keeps people on task, etc. Universal employment is the sort of shit the Soviet Union had that lead to six people doing the job of one.

    Note that I'm not necessarily against, however, a degree of "make work" projects from the government, designed to basically put shit on resumes of the working class. In an job market where experience is all employers care about, it would be a massive service to have short-term job programs available that essentially act as job training; stocking shit, basic paperwork, whateverthefuck, so people can actually say "Yes, I have a year of experience in X" and don't just get their applications filtered out immediately.
  • dsfdsf
    edited May 2011
    There are too many people in the US in the upper and middle class that think they work hard and earn what they have. In reality they have no idea what the day to day struggle of the poor is and how hard poor people work all there lives and then have nothing for it. As long as the people with power and wealth perpetuate their self-entitlement attitude, nothing will change, just as nothing has changed for the past 8000+ years.

    Capitalism and socialism are the peaceful redistribution of wealth and power. When either of these fail, then the violent redistribution of wealth and power occurs. I think this might be self-evident.
    Post edited by dsf on
  • I do have one caveat with this experiment, and perhaps some more information (like distance from this village to others, or how other communities were affected) could shut me up. If you pump that much money into a small, poor community, then it will be more competitive against the other small, poor communities around it. This may explain statistics like the increase of activity, livestock gains, and even malnutrition drops. The payments created a privileged class which could make more purchases, while prices of food, livestock, and other resources remained relatively stable (as long as this town was the minority, and there were still plenty of consumers in the region who did not receive extra funds). These people also had a significant advantage in business (as well as security in case of failure), which could explain the rise in activity. If a similar experiment were done on an island, an isolated community, or in a much larger area, there may be much less significant gains.

    This reminds me of a recent episode of Freakonomics that described an experiment conducted in an incredibly poor province in China, where two economists provided some vision impaired grade school students with glasses while, unfortunately, having to use some students as a control group. The students with the cheap glasses, which cost less that $20 to produce, lead to significant grade improvements. Whereas the effects of this experiment were clear (food prices won't rise because a kid got glasses), throwing money at Omitara was a bit more hasty, and I'd love to see more results of the experiment.
  • I see that in the experiment that people would not do nothing. However, I can fucking guarantee you that I would do nothing. Sure, I would be making stuff and working on podcasts and software and such. However, I would never do anything with commercial intent. With personal debts and no free money, if I take time to work on something, I have to structure it in an economically profitable way. That is, I have to do things in a way someone else is willing to pay for. If I had free money, I could just make open source software all day, and not do anything that would be economically beneficial.
  • I could just make open source software all day, and not do anything that would be economically beneficial.
    Isn't open source software helping other people to be more productive, and to produce work faster and with less overhead at companies that implement it?
  • Isn't open source software helping other people to be more productive, and to produce work faster and with less overhead at companies that implement it?
    If everyone who wanted to could work on open source software all day without worry about food, water, and shelter we can safely assume that both the quality and quantity of open source software will greatly increase. In the long run that will cause incredible economic damage to companies which make money by selling software. Not only will sales of their software decrease, but they will have an extremely hard time hiring. They will also have to pay much higher wages to retain employees.
  • But all the companies that have to buy, say, Word or Photoshop, will increase in profit and productivity. It's boosting one economic sector at the expense of the commercial software industry.
  • But all the companies that have to buy, say, Word or Photoshop, will increase in profit and productivity. It's boosting one economic sector at the expense of the commercial software industry.
    It's true and it's not true.

    Let's say you have a software company. They have ten customers at $1000 each. If that software is replaced by something free and open source, those ten customers keep their $1000. There is no guarantee the open source software will be more efficient than the $1000 software, but it will be at least as good if the customers all switched.

    While you might think that those companies keeping their $1000 just moves the benefit from the software company to those other companies, it's not true. The health of the economy is all about the velocity of money. Those dollars sitting still instead of moving around is not good. Also, even though the short term will have lots of job opportunities at high pay, when the companies actually start to go out of business, the situation will flip. Once it flips there's a catastrophe. Before people were taking the free money out of choice. Now their are no jobs left, so they have to take it out of need. Even worse, there aren't enough employed people anymore to tax to pay for the unemployed people. And then it's all over.
  • edited May 2011
    There is no guarantee the open source software will be more efficient than the $1000 software, but it will be at least as good if the customers all switched.
    If all our software was free, we could make a lot more profit on our games. Basically, you, by writing the open source, would be providing the same function as someone volunteering to do work for us for free.

    edit: Basically, this would not work so hot in our current capitalist economy, but if the goal of the economy was to make stuff, rather than moving money around, this would be good. Guaranteed income does not jive with the capitalist way of doing things.
    Art is an example of something that never really fit within this structure very well. We manage to make it fit into a market economy, or we make a patron system where people with money jobs support people with creative jobs, but capitalism and artistic expression have never been best friends. This different type of economy changes that, and is more geared toward creation for creation's sake.
    Post edited by gomidog on
  • There is no guarantee the open source software will be more efficient than the $1000 software, but it will be at least as good if the customers all switched.
    If all our software was free, we could make a lot more profit on our games. Basically, you, by writing the open source, would be providing the same function as someone volunteering to do work for us for free.
    Except you wouldn't even have a game company anymore. Since you could all just live off the government and make whatever game you wanted with no deadline. Also, people would be much less willing to pay for your games as they have less disposable income and there is a glut of free games from other people doing the same thing as you.
  • As someone who loves making creative stuff, I've always been a fan of the patron system.
  • But simultaneously, there would likely still be a market for luxury goods, and I'll wager a large number of people will work despite the possibility of free living just to have more nice things. Maybe basic income only covers rent in the cheapest parts of the country. Want to live in New York and be able to afford to travel? Better find a job.
  • As someone who loves making creative stuff, I've always been a fan of the patron system.
    You should probably do some research on history and why the patron system went away.
  • Look, the whole point of the guaranteed income for everyone is to flip the supply and demand jobs on their heads.

    Everyone wants to be an artist or creative. Great! Go at it!

    But nobody wants to be a cleaner or refuse collector. And they don't have to be! They can avoid that job. So to get people to do the menial jobs you have to PAY MORE. A cleaning job will be a sweet gig!

    Market forces will then readjust (in theory), so that for anyone who wants to be only an artist, and completely freeloading off the basic income, they won't be able to afford it. They'll have to do some kind of work to supplement their income. Because working a menial job will be well paid, they could do just one or two days work to get enough money.

    The outcome is that more people will be doing supplemental part time work, and hopefully contributing to society and culture and technology and the economy in general with their far more ample free time.

    Personally in such a system, I don't see my own situation changing much. I would still expect to get paid the same money for my job, as the demand is already way above the current supply, and I'm turning down more work than I accept. For any high level job the same would hold true. Just because you get enough money to LIVE doesn't mean you LIVE WELL. It means you meet a basic minimum level. That's not enough to afford to go to PAX or have a nice apartment in New York or to buy cars, even if you might have more time to pursue those hobbies if you set your mind to it.


    Personally I'm not convinced by the entire argument, but I have a friend who goes on about it constantly, and attends conferences promoting the idea, and sometimes I wish he'd shut the fuck up.
  • The outcome is that more people will be doing supplemental part time work
    Supplemental work? So do I get the free money even if I have a job, or does having a job mean that you don't get the free money anymore?
  • Obviously you'd get the free money even if you had a job; to do otherwise would give people a strong disincentive to work.
  • Everyone gets the money, no matter if they are working or not. That's the point. the job market still exists, but people don't have to go into debt to afford to live while going to university, but it doesn't mean they can't work at the same time.

    The funding of this is supposed to come from income tax above a high level (so in effect you don't get the money if you pay more tax than the income) as well as massive sales taxes.The idea of this being if you can afford to spend money, you must have money. Also land taxes rather than building taxes, so it encourages development of property, rather than impeding new buildings. There are a LOT of issues built into the theory, and I think it's a good one.
  • We do have perverse incentives in the US, in that generally the most unpleasant jobs also pay the least. In theory, the worse a job is, the more one should have to pay to get someone to do it.
  • We do have perverse incentives in the US, in that generally the most unpleasant jobs also pay the least. In theory, the worse a job is, the more one should have to pay to get someone to do it.
    The problem is that the more unpleasant the job, often less intellect is required to do it, so the supply of laborers is very high.

    Sanitation work is very nasty, but brainless. Just about anyone is able to do it. Emegency Room doctor is also unpleasant, but requires much more skill , so it pays more.
  • edited May 2011
    Sanitation work is very nasty, but brainless. Just about anyone is able to do it.
    I was thinking about this the other day:

    Why is it that janitorial work is considered brainless? These are the people that we pay to ensure that our environment is sanitary. These people keep our hospitals clean, they keep our food production facilities clean, and they keep our streets clean. Sanitation is a science, and ensuring proper sanitation isn't really all that brainless. If it was so brainless, why did we live in filth for so long? Why did it take really smart people to say, "Hey, maybe we should shit downstream from the place where we drink?"

    The only reason we think maintenance and janitorial work is brainless is because we don't care about our infrastructure. Americans don't see adequate maintenance as a worthwhile thing, and so we pay the janitors so little that the only ones willing to do it are the ones who can't handle anything too complicated.

    It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Raise the bar a bit and I bet janitorial work would suddenly become a desirable job.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • Why is it that janitorial work is considered brainless?
    Well, there are two different things here.

    Sanitation management is far from brainless. Those people are paid a lot of money. They have to do things like planning routes for the trucks to managing methane levels at the landfill, to logistics of putting trash on boats. These people aren't the ones who get their hands dirty. The actual labor is done by hand, and only requires following simple instructions. Drive the truck down these streets stopping whenever you see trash. Hold onto this truck. Whenever it stops, grab the trash and throw it in the truck.

    The other problem is, sadly, unions. I read a story about a NYC sanitation worker in Brooklyn some years ago. He was a garbage collector, and really passionate about it. A garbage collecting geek, if I might say so. He tried very hard to optimize his route, and succeeded. He managed to finish his route in less than half the time of anyone else. Rather than being rewarded, he was scolded. He was forced to do the job less efficiently because he was putting union jobs, hours, and pay at risk.

    The culture of labor in the US most of the time is extremely harsh on anyone who applies skill or discretion in a position of unskilled labor. You follow the instructions from the superiors to a T, and that's it. Whether you rock the boat for better or for worse, it can only bring negative consequences unless you are lucky and work for awesome people. If you are that lucky, you probably won't be in such a low position as to rock the boat for very long.
  • edited May 2011
    The actual labor is done by hand, and only requires following simple instructions.
    Not entirely. I mean, very often, when you have a question you can ask your supervisor. However, even the supervisors can be under-trained. But knowing what may or may not be problematic is a very useful skill for people who are in the field and need to react to the situation at hand.

    Think of the sanitation manager like the general giving orders. The troops (janitors) need to carry out those orders. But the general isn't on the field, and even if he was, he can't be everywhere at the same time. He needs competent and useful reports from his ground troops in order to effectively manage those decisions.

    The guys driving around see to the day-to-day implementation of the plan; they're the ones who have to figure out how to work around sudden changes and unexpected variables. It pays to have competent staff who can tell you when something could be a problem that requires addressing. The whole system functions much more smoothly if the guys reporting back to you actually know how to phrase a problem.

    I do agree that US union culture often has a lot to do with it, but it's not the only problem. Within a given union, there can be a lot of discretion, but you may have to pay for that flexibility.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • We do have perverse incentives in the US, in that generally the most unpleasant jobs also pay the least. In theory, the worse a job is, the more one should have to pay to get someone to do it.
    The problem is that the more unpleasant the job, often less intellect is required to do it, so the supply of laborers is very high.

    Sanitation work is very nasty, but brainless. Just about anyone is able to do it. Emegency Room doctor is also unpleasant, but requires much more skill , so it pays more.
    Our market does maintain some of this mentality in extreme circumstances. For example, trash collectors in NYC actually make more than some teachers. Why? The job is so unpleasant, involves such bad hours, and comes at a personal risk (heroin needles, long term strain, etc.) that few people are willing to take on the job without benefits and a decent salary.

    Also, a system like this could still boost economic performance in a society like ours by alleviating risk. Suppose you are working a menial, office job to supplement your $100 a week, but you really want to open a restaurant or start a small business. Knowing that you'll still have a source of income could make such a dream more realistic. I have a feeling that is what happened in this experiment. Someone could take a risk buying a cow, building up their home, or escaping from the criminal cycle because the knew that even if they were inactive for a few weeks, they would still be able to sustain themselves.
  • edited May 2011
    For example, trash collectors in NYC actually make more than some teachers. Why? The job is so unpleasant, involves such bad hours, and comes at a personal risk (heroin needles, long term strain, etc.) that few people are willing to take on the job without benefits and a decent salary.
    That's not why. It's because they have a ridiculously strong union. If they strike, and they have in the past, the city quickly becomes buried in trash and everything smells. They are not afraid to let everyone wallow in garbage if they don't get mad moneys.

    I just see a lot of union stuff because I'm riding my bike around NYC every day. Saw some Con Edison guys sleeping in a van.
    Post edited by Apreche on
  • edited May 2011
    Starting Salary31,000k starting in New York City, with a test both mental and physical... in 5 and a half years you can get up to 61k. Not bad, but definitely not great for a job in New York city.

    Starting Salary for teachers 45,000k for a BS.
    Post edited by Cremlian on
  • Starting Salary31,000k starting in New York City, with a test both mental and physical... in 5 and a half years you can get up to 61k.
    Plus overtime. You know they're milking it.
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