So, is belief based solely on desire something that should be respected? Are deeply held beliefs beyond examination purely because they are deeply held?
IrresponsibleCapnTim, would you change your mind about prayer working if you were shown evidence that it does not?
I believe in the teachings of Jesus. And I do think he exisited. I think that 2,00o years ago some guy named Jesus was walking around all hippie like talking about love and being exclent to each other.
He also supported eternal punishment, which I consider quite a large strike against him.
My praying is just asking for help to stay centered and calm and to have a good day.
Asking whom?
Also really. What is fucking wrong with being thankful for the life you have and the things you got.
IrresponsibleCapnTim, would you change your mind about prayer working if you were shown evidence that it does not?
Anecdotal evidence can't be disproved with evidence like that. The evidence you have will most likely be based on large statistical studies. The study will show that all the successful prayers are balanced out by the unsuccessful.
However, Capn Tim is one of the successful prayers. He's been flipping heads in a row for a long time. And if a tail comes up, it's not for something important. In his mind. What should it care if other people's prayers don't work? They are probably just praying differently, or for different things.
Tim might be just trolling Scrym. That statement sounds calculated to make them come on and say, "YARRRGH!!!! STOP IT!!! IT'S ILLOGICAL, UNFOUNDED, AND IRRATIONAL!!!!!!1! BARGLE BARGLE BARGLE!!!!!"
My response to Tim: If that's what you want to believe, fine. Now let's talk about something else.
Something about the doctors thing that everyone was talking about a few posts ago: Should you always ask whether your doctor is an atheist and possibly go to another one if she's not, since apparently she can't be a good doctor if she believes in God?
If you take an Anatomy and Physiology class and the professor says he doesn't believe in evolution, should you drop the course?
Also really. What is fucking wrong with being thankful for the life you have and the things you got. Yes it can be 100% (well maybe not 100 but pretty fucking close how we came to be the humas we are today) And how many planets are there and how many of them have life on them? I dont know about you but I am really thankful that I qam
Nothing wrong with being thankful, as long as you thank the right people, everyone who is alive today is here because their ancestors were successful. You are here because people before you worked to improve society to a point where we can sustain a large population. If we were not as advanced as we are technologically and socially, you probably would have never existed today. Millions of other people died in wars and famine and disease helping to move ourselves ahead politically and scientifically. Fuck ya Humanity, your awesome even in your flawed ways, but don't rest on your bums, keep improving and advancing!
//Humanism
If you take an Anatomy and Physiology class and the professor says he doesn't believe in evolution, should you drop the course?
Yea, pretty much. Nothing wrong with believing in god and evolution in Biology, but evolution at this point is a corner stone of biology and medicine, if you remove it from the picture it's hard to understand how certain things work and how they were discovered.
So, Cremlian, belief in evolution is an absolute requirement to know the difference between the sinoatrial node and the bicuspid valve? Does this professor have no hope of teaching the function of the cremaster muscle if he doesn't believe in evolution?
Why, specifically, do you need to beleve in evoluution to teach an A & P course? Are you just parrotting something you heard Pete say because it sounds all science-y?
So, Cremlian, belief in evolution is an absolute requirement to know the difference between the sinoatrial node and the bicuspid valve? Does this professor have no hope of teaching the function of the cremaster muscle if he doesn't believe in evolution?
Why, specifically, do you need to beleve in evoluution to teach an A & P course? Are you just parrotting something you heard Pete say because it sounds all science-y?
There is no such thing as belief in evolution. Either you accept it or not. It's a fact.
So, Cremlian, belief in evolution is an absolute requirement to know the difference between the sinoatrial node and the bicuspid valve? Does this professor have no hope of teaching the function of the cremaster muscle if he doesn't believe in evolution?
Why, specifically, do you need to beleve in evoluution to teach an A & P course? Are you just parrotting something you heard Pete say because it sounds all science-y?
It's not that he would have no hope, but I would question his credentials in biology. Sure, an English teacher can teach A&P; just fine, since the class is mainly a procedural look at it's topic. However, if it was a Biology Professor, I would take it that he has studied Biology and would understand evolutions importance to the field of Biology. We are not talking "EVOLUTION" the how did life evolve from non-life because that's not what the real theory of evolution is, but the "the change over time in one or more inherited traits found in populations of organisms" evolution. There are many fields of biology that can not be understood if you do not understand and accept that evolution is happening and has happened. From Toxicology to Genomics you need to have a understanding of evolution to truly understand the mechanisms behind these fields in biology.
And Joe, Pete, while well versed in Biology is not the only person who has a biology background in the crew. While I may be working IT in my Toxicology lab but I also went to RIT for Biology (Biotechnology) to be exact. Pete, just is more eloquent (and smarter) then I am (and usually makes the point before I can).
Andrew - Okay, say the professor doesn't accept evolution, then. Does that necessarily mean that he can't teach the location and function of the juxtaglomerular apparatus? Does that mean he can't understand what the detrusor muscle does?
There is no such thing as belief in evolution. Either you accept it or not. It's a fact.
Yeap. Not all irrationalities are created equal. We can argue (legitimately) about the relevance of various specific beliefs or lack thereof in various circumstances, but the theory of evolution is a clear case where no intelligent person, confronted with the evidence, can deny it. To do so is to belie one's intelligence in a general sense, equivalent to denying that gravity has been observed and accurately predicted.
I wouldn't trust someone who disagrees with the core of the theory of evolution with anything, let alone anything related to my health or well-being. It's a whole other ballgame from an otherwise intelligent person who believes in something silly: it's a denial of observed, predictive, reproducible phenomena.
Okay, say the professor doesn't accept evolution, then. Does that necessarily mean that he can't teach the location and function of the juxtaglomerular apparatus? Does that mean he can't understand what the detrusor muscle does?
So, to wit, someone who denies evolution can't be trusted intellectually. They either aren't informed, aren't intelligent, or willfully in denial of an observed truth on a fundamental scale. They literally can't be trusted.
So, is that a litmus test for all medical treatment? Do I need to start asking the phlebotomist before he takes my blood or the nurse who gives me an IV whether they accept evolution and then demand someone else if they don't?
Okay, say the professor doesn't accept evolution, then. Does that necessarily mean that he can't teach the location and function of the juxtaglomerular apparatus? Does that mean he can't understand what the detrusor muscle does?
So, to wit, someone who denies evolution can't be trusted intellectually. They either aren't informed, aren't intelligent, or willfully in denial of an observed truth on a fundamental scale. They literally can't be trusted.
So, if this person told you what the dartos muscle does, you wouldn't trust him even for that?
I'm just interested because I've had surgery recently. Something like forty percent of Americans don't accept evolution. So, odds are, if you're in hospital, you're going to recieve treatment from one. What do you do?
I'm just interested because I've had surgery recently. Something like forty percent of Americans don't accept evolution. So, odds are, if you're in hospital, you're going to recieve treatment from one. What do you do?
Doubtful. Just because forty percent of American's don't accept evolution doesn't mean that it's a normal distribution. I'm willing to bet that it's skewed towards the people with lower education and not in the medical profession.
I'm just interested because I've had surgery recently. Something like forty percent of Americans don't accept evolution. So, odds are, if you're in hospital, you're going to recieve treatment from one. What do you do?
40% of americans is not 40% of doctors. The % of doctors that accept evolution in some form (whether divinely inspired or not) is something around 80%...
Andrew and Cremlian - You recieve lots of treatment from lots of different people in hospital. How much training does one actually need to be a phlebotomist? I'm not worried about actual doctors, but I bet that 40 percent might include some LPNs and phlebotomists.
Cremlian - so, based on your earlier post, you would trust the professor who doesn't accept evolution to teach a survey A & P course?
Yea, as I stated above, since it's just a survey of parts of the body and what they do it doesn't have much effect on their ability to teach it. As I stated, a English professor could teach A&P.; However, there are not many other biology courses that would fall into this category and you'd be hard pressed to find a college level Biology teacher beyond one or two exceptions that does not accept the theory of Evolution.
//Never took A&P;, though I did take Vertebrate Evolution, which unfortunately for me had A&P; for a prerequisite, which lead to a fun time catching up on names of bones....
Andrew and Cremlian - You recieve lots of treatment from lots of different people in hospital. How much training does one actually need to be a phlebotomist?
Judging from my experiences with Phlebotomists, not enough.
Andrew and Cremlian - You recieve lots of treatment from lots of different people in hospital. How much training does one actually need to be a phlebotomist? I'm not worried about actual doctors.
I haven't said anything about requiring my physicians (or phlebotomist) to believe in evolution.
This is technically incorrect. Yes, we do believe that evolution occurs. That belief is evidence-based. We accept it to be true because we have evidence indicating as much.
This is not the same as having faith that evolution happens. We do not have faith in evolution.
It might be better to specify the type of belief that we're discussing: faith-based beliefs versus evidence-based beliefs.
EDIT: I just really hate the co-opting of the word "belief" to be synonymous with "faith."
EDIT: I just really hate the co-opting of the word "belief" to be synonymous with "faith."
The same happens in Dutch, though slightly worse. To believe someone is telling the truth, you use the word 'geloof', to talk about faith, it's the same fucking work. So when I say that I believe that, given the time, money, and desire to, I could run experiments and get the results as expected from the relevant theory, I get semi-mocked that dohohoho, he believes! Also explaining the difference between a scientific theory and a layman's theory for the 100th time is just as infuriating.
I haven't said anything about requiring my physicians (or phlebotomist) to believe in evolution.
But if I had a choice, and I learned that my phlebotomist or doctor didn't accept evolution and persisted in this despite presented evidence, I would seek a new phlebotomist. I wouldn't trust their intelligence to do anything to me.
It's much the same as if I saw, saw, my mechanic using crystal meth outside of work, I would stop going to that mechanic even if his work had been otherwise sound up to that point. The mere act of using crystal meth in particular puts his intelligence and reliability into serious question.
Now, were he using marijuana, I wouldn't care. But the specific issues surrounding crystal meth's side effects make it clear that he is not a person to be trusted so long as he is still using it and not seeking help to stop using it.
Or, if I saw my mechanic outside of work banging himself on the head with a ball-peen hammer, or using a lighter to see if there was gas flowing through his siphon, I would as well stop going to him. He's demonstrated a lack of good judgement.
I just ment meant that prayer helps someone mantain a posative positive attitude. And a posative positive attitude helps someone recover from sugery faster. It dont doesn't matter what you are praying to. You can pray to FSM. Or not pray at all and just meditate. Again, I do not believe in God as a "real person". God is an idea created by man. Ideas are powerful. So it works like a sugar pill. Sure it doesn't work all the time. But it's nice to have. So, if it really comes down to it, no I don't believe in anything the bible says. But I like what the teachings of Jesus say. And I don't really believe in God. But I like the idea of god. And it feels nice to pretend sometimes.
Comments
IrresponsibleCapnTim, would you change your mind about prayer working if you were shown evidence that it does not?
However, Capn Tim is one of the successful prayers. He's been flipping heads in a row for a long time. And if a tail comes up, it's not for something important. In his mind. What should it care if other people's prayers don't work? They are probably just praying differently, or for different things.
My response to Tim: If that's what you want to believe, fine. Now let's talk about something else.
Something about the doctors thing that everyone was talking about a few posts ago: Should you always ask whether your doctor is an atheist and possibly go to another one if she's not, since apparently she can't be a good doctor if she believes in God?
If you take an Anatomy and Physiology class and the professor says he doesn't believe in evolution, should you drop the course?
//Humanism Yea, pretty much. Nothing wrong with believing in god and evolution in Biology, but evolution at this point is a corner stone of biology and medicine, if you remove it from the picture it's hard to understand how certain things work and how they were discovered.
Why, specifically, do you need to beleve in evoluution to teach an A & P course? Are you just parrotting something you heard Pete say because it sounds all science-y?
And Joe, Pete, while well versed in Biology is not the only person who has a biology background in the crew. While I may be working IT in my Toxicology lab but I also went to RIT for Biology (Biotechnology) to be exact. Pete, just is more eloquent (and smarter) then I am (and usually makes the point before I can).
I wouldn't trust someone who disagrees with the core of the theory of evolution with anything, let alone anything related to my health or well-being. It's a whole other ballgame from an otherwise intelligent person who believes in something silly: it's a denial of observed, predictive, reproducible phenomena.
Sorta the reverse situation but the sediment holds true.
As for nurses, since they tend to do things that don't involve diagnosis and generally just procedural stuff. I have a bigger tolerance.
//Never took A&P;, though I did take Vertebrate Evolution, which unfortunately for me had A&P; for a prerequisite, which lead to a fun time catching up on names of bones....
This is not the same as having faith that evolution happens. We do not have faith in evolution.
It might be better to specify the type of belief that we're discussing: faith-based beliefs versus evidence-based beliefs.
EDIT: I just really hate the co-opting of the word "belief" to be synonymous with "faith."
Pete - Andrew posted that, not me.
It's much the same as if I saw, saw, my mechanic using crystal meth outside of work, I would stop going to that mechanic even if his work had been otherwise sound up to that point. The mere act of using crystal meth in particular puts his intelligence and reliability into serious question.
Now, were he using marijuana, I wouldn't care. But the specific issues surrounding crystal meth's side effects make it clear that he is not a person to be trusted so long as he is still using it and not seeking help to stop using it.
Or, if I saw my mechanic outside of work banging himself on the head with a ball-peen hammer, or using a lighter to see if there was gas flowing through his siphon, I would as well stop going to him. He's demonstrated a lack of good judgement.