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Bad day for Norway...

CodgerCodger
edited July 2011 in News
A man bombed a government building in Oslo. Then dressed as a policemen when on a killing spree on a island camp full of children. Death toll stands at 92, most of them children...

http://www.news.com.au/world/twin-attacks-gunman-opens-fire-on-youth-camp-car-bomb-explodes-at-pms-office/story-e6frfkz9-1226100157179
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Comments

  • AgnaraAgnara
    edited July 2011
    When it comes to terrorist attacks, it seems like this was one of the better planned ones. As I've understood it he identifies himself as a nationalist who's against multiculturalism/immigration, and is frustrated with the direction society is moving. To combat this he eventually decides that violence against the labor party (Arbeiderpartiet), which happens to also be the governing party (in a coalition).

    It appears he first sat of a bomb outside the building containing the prime minister's office, which kills and wounds quite a few people (though it was after regular office hours). The police calls in all their reserves in order to gain control over the situation, while he drives an hour to a social event for the party's youth group (14-18) on an island(, Utøya, sometimes translated by Google as vermin, as utøy happens to also mean vermin in Norwegian). This gathering is of around 600 people on a relatively small island, and the prime minister also happens to be scheduled to have a talk there during the day. It's possible he expected he would have caught him there. He then shows up on the island about an hour after the explosion, dressed as a police officer, but missed them haven a briefing about the explosion. He then gathers a lot of them, using his apparent authority as police officer, claiming to give new details about the situation. And then opens fire on crowd. The police reaction somewhat is delayed as they're all working downtown to get control of the explosion damages. And hour and a half after the first shooting the police shows up in force, and he surrenders (some claiming he had run out of ammunition by then).

    The end result being that he may well have affected/killed a large portion of the future politicians of the party he was opposed to in addition to being the largest spree killer recorded. The explosion could be heard even outside of town where my house is (I'm ~6km away), though i was asleep at the time, so I didn't hear it.

    It would also appear that a movement on Facebook has started adding a small icon of the Norwegian flag to their profile pictures, which I find odd given the situation, As it appears the rationale was nationalistic.

    Oh, and he kinda looks like a Lannister.

    *Spent too much time writing the post*
    Post edited by Agnara on
  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    Fuck.
  • Linkigi(Link-ee-jee)Linkigi(Link-ee-jee)
    Sonuvabitch.
  • NuriNuri
    It was the SAME GUY? Fuck. Psychos.

    Something in me finds it odd that the bombing only killed 7 and the shooting spree killed 84.
  • AriaAria
    edited July 2011
    Somehow I expected FRCF of all places to find out about this sooner. It was a camp full of kids on an island, and he was there for an hour and half with an assault rifle. The bomb was placed next to mostly empty buildings. Also, I think the shooting killed 92 alone, and the bomb killed 7 8 on top of that.
    Post edited by Aria on
  • remix3211remix3211
    Somehow I expected FRCF of all places to find out about this sooner.
    There were posts concerning this tragedy yesterday, in the Fail of Your Day thread.
  • AriaAria
    There were posts concerning this tragedy yesterday, in the Fail of Your Day thread.
    So there were. My bad. Still a day after the incident though.
  • NuriNuri
    There were posts concerning this tragedy yesterday, in the Fail of Your Day thread.
    So there were. My bad. Still a day after the incident though.
    Um no, it happened on Friday. That was posted on Friday. I didn't post it as soon as I found out about it (because I was still asleep in bed when I got the message, thanks Mom), but it was definitely still Friday here.
  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    It was the SAME GUY? Fuck. Psychos.

    Something in me finds it odd that the bombing only killed 7 and the shooting spree killed 84.
    It could very well have been planned that way. Bomb in Oslo to distract people, go to the camp posing as a police officer with a bombing update, and go on a shooting spree. It took the police nearly an hour just to mobilize.

    Fucking horrifying.
  • BantaBanta
    I think they are still finding corpses at the island; a lot of kids tried to swim away from the island and drowned, and there are rumors of a second gunman though it has not yet been confirmed or denied.
  • WertherWerther
    edited July 2011
    It was the SAME GUY? Fuck. Psychos.

    Something in me finds it odd that the bombing only killed 7 and the shooting spree killed 84.
    It could very well have been planned that way. Bomb in Oslo to distract people, go to the camp posing as a police officer with a bombing update, and go on a shooting spree. It took the police nearly an hour just to mobilize.

    Fucking horrifying.
    He came to the island saying he wanted to inform everyone on the attacks.

    Also the governments response is amazing. I have great respect for how they are dealing with the situation. "We will stand up for the values that made Utøya possible."

    Part of his manifesto.
    Post edited by Werther on
  • JasonJason
    edited July 2011
    Since this happened, I've been reading up on Norway. Maybe I'm looking at bad sources, but it seems like an incredibly awesome, liberal, highly-educated, nearly idyllic place. I would love to visit. If we have anyone here from Norway: Is it as perfect as it sounds?
    Post edited by Jason on
  • AriaAria
    From my Norwegian point of view... yes.
  • WertherWerther
    From my Norwegian point of view... yes.
    I often take the train to Norway (from Germany) and I must say: your country is awesome.
  • AgnaraAgnara
    Not knowing what you've read, I'll still answer yes on that question. It's not perfect, but I can't think of anywhere else I would be, even if I could seamlessly integrate in to their society. The country isn't too big though, so you wont find the massive communities you will elsewhere. It's further north than the US and much of Canada, but the gulf stream and our large coastline keeps the temperature higher than in Russia.

    Everyone speaking some amount of English would also be a plus I guess.
  • AprecheApreche
    Yes, Norway is pretty great in those regards. However, you have to understand why that scenario is possible in Norway. The population is not so big, and it's not that easy to immigrate. Therefore, they don't have tons of people weighing down the economy just using up resources without contributing. On top of that, they have tons of natural resources they exploit very efficiently, and they tax very liberally. The result is that you have a lot of moneys spread all around not so many people. That allows them to be the way they are. It's not a system that can work so nicely in circumstances that aren't as ideal.
  • AprecheApreche
    Another note.

    http://kotaku.com/5824147/oslo-terrorist-anders-behring-breivik-used-modern-warfare-2-as-training+simulation-world-of-warcraft-as-cover

    Kotaku is reporting that the nutjob use Call of Duty to "train". Also that he pretended to play WoW more than he actually played WoW as an alibi for the time he was actually spending doing evil.

    If Call of Duty can "train" you well enough to shoot down that many people, let's just be glad this guy apparently never heard of ArmA.
  • GregGreg
    It can't. I stay adamant about this. CoD doesn't teach about gun operations, it barely trains aiming -- not enough to actually be useful -- and if it actually simulated a firefight, then 25 million more people would have PTSD. He had to have trained for this separately, particularly with time he pretended to use playing WoW.
  • canine224canine224
    If Call of Duty can train you for that then Street Fighter can train you in hand to hand combat.
  • AprecheApreche
    It's obvious that the games can't actually train you. The point is that he thinks it did, and wrote that it did.
  • AriaAria
    edited July 2011
    It teaches quick reflexes better than--- better FPSs. In, say, Counter Strike, its all about quickly clicking on the other guys head. In MW, it's all about turning around as soon as you see another dude and fire blindly. Which is a much better strategy than the CS way when murdering defenseless children.

    And I believe Tekken can teach you hand to hand combat strategy.
    Post edited by Aria on
  • NuriNuri
    It's obvious that the games can't actually train you. The point is that he thinks it did, and wrote that it did.
    It's quite possible that it wasn't the actual weapons handling he is talking about. It could be emotional training. Steeling yourself to shoot 80+ kid cannot be an easy thing unless you are mightily fucked up.
  • ChurbaChurba
    It's quite possible that it wasn't the actual weapons handling he is talking about. It could be emotional training. Steeling yourself to shoot 80+ kid cannot be an easy thing unless you are mightily fucked up.
    It doesn't matter how many games you play, shooting someone in the reality is a very hard thing to do, unless you're either trained enough that you fall back on training before it becomes an issue(at least, until possibly, much later), you're under immense stress - in which case you normally break down immediately after - or you're just an utter fuckin' nutcase(to use the technical term).

    Also, apparently he was bragging at one point about being in communication with the England Defense Leauge, an Anti-islam, anti-immigration, and anti-anyone-who-isn't-a-white-straight-christian mob.
  • canine224canine224
    Steeling yourself to shoot 80+ kid cannot be an easy thing unless you are mightily fucked up.
    You have to already be fucked up if a game can emotionally train you to deal with slaughtering kids.
  • GregGreg
    edited July 2011
    It's quite possible that it wasn't the actual weapons handling he is talking about. It could be emotional training. Steeling yourself to shoot 80+ kid cannot be an easy thing unless you are mightily fucked up.
    One cannot emotionally train for war. The murder of a man for the freedom of a nation is the most emotionally difficult experience mankind has yet to discover. That's why the Pentagon is trying to abstract it with drones. Thinking a bit more, I seem to remember a Kotaku article a few months ago about the Military trying to use the MW2 Engine to train soldiers, so apparently professionals in not knowing what they're dealing with agree with this guy.
    Post edited by Greg on
  • AriaAria
    edited July 2011
    Those professionals are talking based on statistics from tests (probably), and this guy did manage to shoot 85 kids. Our assumptions have a much weaker basis. Not saying they're right; of course not. I'm just pointing out people who say this are in better positions (although most certainly not good enough positions) to comment on the effects of these kinds of simulations.
    Post edited by Aria on
  • canine224canine224
    edited July 2011
    That's why the Pentagon is trying to abstract it with drones.
    I disagree with that pretty heavily but that is a separate subject from this discussion.

    I missed that Kotaku article you mentioned, I will be looking for that when I get a chance.
    Post edited by canine224 on
  • AgnaraAgnara
    edited July 2011
    It's obvious that the games can't actually train you. The point is that he thinks it did, and wrote that it did.
    It's quite possible that it wasn't the actual weapons handling he is talking about. It could be emotional training. Steeling yourself to shoot 80+ kid cannot be an easy thing unless you are mightily fucked up.
    Alternatively it could be training in spotting people quickly. Like hiding in the distance and/or running towards you. I would think that that could be hard to teach oneself discreetly.
    Post edited by Agnara on
  • NuriNuri
    Those professionals are talking based on statistics from tests (probably), and this guy did manage to shoot 85 kids. Our assumptions have a much weaker basis. Not saying they're right; of course not. I'm just pointing out people who say this are in better positions (although most certainly not good enough positions) to comment on the effects of these kinds of simulations.
    This. Also, understand that not everyone is alike. For instance, there are psychopaths and sociopaths out there who process things differently than most of us, emotionally. Also, people can be conditioned to respond in certain ways to certain stimuli. I think a blanket statement that "one cannot emotionally train for war" is somewhat closed-minded and shows a lack of knowledge of brain chemistry.
  • canine224canine224
    edited July 2011
    I think a blanket statement that "one cannot emotionally train for war" is somewhat closed-minded and shows a lack of knowledge of brain chemistry.
    I agree with that, just look at the Spetsnaz. It is just my opinion that if someone can emotionally train for that with a video game then they already had something wrong to start with.
    Post edited by canine224 on
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