It's a fucking terribly designed rifle, to the point where if you have a stock AR-15, you should be casting your thanks to whatever god you believe in every time it successfully fires. If you want to know in detail, the Extractor is pissweak and easy to break(and if it does, that's a trip to the gunsmith for some expensive repairs), the chamber is an incredibly stupid design, It's hard to clean properly(I mean that quite seriously, if you have a choice between being beaten to death slowly and cleaning the AR-15 pattern rifles, pick the former, it's less painful), the gas impingement system is, to use the technical term, fucking retarded, it's really ammo sensitive, the receivers are generally made with a relatively soft alloy that's easy to fuck up.
Yeah, It's ergonomic, and looks badass, but thank you, I'll take a rifle that's going to work when I pull the trigger, rather than praying, PRAYING it's going to so much as go click.
It's a fucking terribly designed rifle, to the point where if you have a stock AR-15, you should be casting your thanks to whatever god you believe in every time it successfully fires.
Really? I thought maybe it was just you didn't like the ammo it used or something. Are the other variants like the M4 Carbine as bad?
Really? I thought maybe it was just you didn't like the ammo it used or something. Are the other variants like the M4 Carbine as bad?
I expanded on that while you were posting this, so see above, but no, the .223 round isn't so bad, it does the job most of the time, and yes, the M4 is not really any better, to the best of my knowledge.
You CAN fix it, and get a decent rifle out of it, but it's annoying and expensive, compared to just buying a rifle that isn't shit in the first place.
I didn't have my heart set on one or anything I'm just surprised its so bad since its the standard issue for the US army. I guess it'll be an AK for me.
I didn't have my heart set on one or anything I'm just surprised its so bad since its the standard issue for the US army. I guess it'll be an AK for me.
Yep, it's surprising, considering, but when the M-16 was adopted, it turned into a complete internal politics shitshow of people who wanted it to fail VS people who wanted it to succeed. What makes it even crazier - I'm talking about MODERN AR-15s. They have actually IMPROVED the rifle since it was first introduced. You can fix about half the problems you will have by replacing the Direct Gas impingement system and putting in a beefier, better designed extractor, but it's still a nightmare to keep properly clean. Don't let it discourage you - it's a good target rifle, and if you want to go to a little more expense, you can buy one that's improved, or buy parts to make a vastly improved version, but just a stock AR-15 pattern rifle? I can't, in good conscience, recommend it to you.
There are other good rifles you could buy other than just the AK, I'm not sure what your history with firearms is, though.
Yeah there's always a lot of BS with stuff like that.
Oh I know there are, and I plan on having a decent collection in the future. An AK is just so widely used and supported I think it would be a good early assault rifle. Plus its a lot cheaper than some other rifles.
Its an AK from Scappoose Armory based on the Yugoslavian kits. Its very nice, although the cheek weld on a underfolder leaves something to be desired.
I've been looking at Sig's rifles and they look nice, but I don't know anyone with any first hand experience. I've also been craving a Noveske AR, but of course they cost a bit more.
The only problem I've ever had with other people's AR15's is failure to feed due to shitty mags (read "they bought the really cheap mags"). The problems of the direct impingement gas system are balanced by low reciprocating weight that produces less recoil. It's also a much lighter overall system (again, fewer parts mean less weight) as seen in that a 20" barrel AR15 actually weighs less than a 16" barrel AK. That said, when I ordered my upper last week I opted for the chromed barrel and chromed bolt carrier group for easier cleaning. I'm also going to use fully synthetic engine oil to lubricate it rather than the more typical gun oil.
The problems of the direct impingement gas system are balanced by low reciprocating weight that produces less recoil.
George, we don't often disagree, but in what world is blowing hot carbon straight into the action - especially in a rifle that to get properly clean practically requires jewelers tools and the patience of a saint - is a good idea? Chuck in an op rod or a Piston, despite what people say, it doesn't really make that much of a difference to recoil - hell, there are systems made for just that purpose, which make barely any noticeable change at all. I'm beggin' you here, George, and you'll thank me later.
Sure, it's nice to have a light rifle, an ergonomic rifle, a rifle with lower recoil - at least you didn't go with the "direct gas impingement makes it more accurate" line that some people use, show me a sub-MOA AR-15, then we can have a chat about accuracy and gas systems - But it just isn't a good design.
And yeah, you say now you've not seen many problems, but just wait till a tiny bit of grit or little shaving of brass gets down behind your ejector - and a spring-loaded ejector over a fixed ejector, too, what the fuck was Eugene Stoner thinking? - and yeah, the smallest bits of whateverthefuck can cause a stuck ejector because it's an anemic little piece of shit with far too close tolerances for anything but a bench-rest target rifle.. Which is real bad, because not only do you have a nasty double feed, but the only way to fix it is to drop the mag and smash it against something sturdy a few times(and by a few, we're talking "Till you're able to move the action again"), butt first. Which can break the stock, or bend the rifle in a few different points, if you're unlucky, it's a toss up. Not to mention you're doing all of this with a live round in. Not my idea of fun.
The origins of the HK416 began with the realization of the deficiencies of the direct gas impingement (gas tube) operating system found on conventional M4/M16-style weapons. Input from the users of current M4/M16-type arms, high-speed video assessment, and extensive live-fire testing in extreme operational environments such as the U.S. Army Desert Proving Ground in Yuma, Arizona revealed multiple areas for improvement. ... The HK-proprietary gas system uses a piston driving an operating rod to control the function of the bolt, preventing propellant gases and the associated carbon fouling from entering the weapon’s interior.
Look, I like the AR. Part of liking the AR is tolerating the gas system. It's not the best idea ever, but at this point it's proven to work well if you take care of it (lubrication is the key to life). The AR is a nice, precision rifle.
Look, I like the AR. Part of liking the AR is tolerating the gas system. It's not the best idea ever, but at this point it's proven to work well if you take care of it (lubrication is the key to life). The AR is a nice, precision rifle.
I like them too, but I'd contend that replacing, not tolerating the gas system is a necessity. I'd argue precision, but then again, it's not a precision rifle, it's just a regular rifle(and decently accurate by that yardstick, when it works), so I suppose I have to forgive it on that score.
As for the old "Works great if you clean it!" - yeah, I don't buy it, considering you need specialty tools, coupled with lots of time and patience to get it properly clean. I mean, for a start, you've got a gun that's blowing carbon and hot gas into the action, which generally you need to scrape off - since we know what heat and pressure does to carbon! - but be careful not to scratch anything up too bad. Not to mention, it's all through the Bolt and carrier assembly, and all over the firing pin - that shit just gets everywhere. Lower receiver, make sure you get all the little hard to reach places down in there - pipe cleaners and cotton buds, make sure you stock up heavily - then into the upper receiver, the charging handle raceway, the gas tube itself(yeah, make really sure you clean that, because you don't even need a full blockage to build up enough heat and pressure under sustained fire to pop that tiny little fucker), and then on to the chamber. Solvents, strange brushes, vicious language, all are required. And don't forget to get in behind and under those stupid little lugs! Don't worry if it's not a perfect job - without some extra tools, you're not going to get it properly clean anyway, so don't stress too much right now. And then, after all that, do the barrel like a regular rifle.
Let's face it, sure, it works fine if you treat it like a Faberge egg. But it's a rifle, and on top of that, a rifle that was designed as a combat rifle, and while I can not, will not, and absolutely refuse to say that regular maintenance isn't an absolute must for any rifle, you also shouldn't have to treat your rifle like a Faberge Egg.
I'd never get a non-DI AR. They're fuck all expensive and none of the upper receiver parts are standardized.
Then you are, frankly, mad as a sack of hammers. Sure, you might not get a Non-DI AR, that's fine, but it fouls the breech, greatly accelerates wear and tear, means you have to be real careful with what ammo you run through it, can reduce accuracy, and so on. Frankly, there is a damned good reason that most rifles don't use direct gas impingement - because it's a ridiculously stupid idea, and the few advantages will never outweigh the disadvantages. You are dedicating yourself to an objectively bad rifle. Think - how many new rifles have come out since the AR-15 with direct gas impingement? Hell, the company it keeps on that score are mostly middle-of-the-last-century rifles that were abandoned after a decade or so.
Then you are, frankly, mad as a sack of hammers. Sure, you might not get a Non-DI AR, that's fine, but it fouls the breech, greatly accelerates wear and tear, means you have to be real careful with what ammo you run through it, can reduce accuracy, and so on. Frankly, there is a damned good reason that most rifles don't use direct gas impingement - because it's a ridiculously stupid idea, and the few advantages will never outweigh the disadvantages.
My point is that an AR is a DI gun and that's that. Don't buy a piston upper for an AR because they are A) stupid expensive and every one is different from the other. When you break something, replacement parts are hard to find assuming they haven't stopped making parts all together.
Buy one of the many AK style guns. A Daewoo DR-200. A Kel-tec SU-16C. Anything but a gas-piston upper AR.
That isn't what I said, George. Your attachment to an objectively badly designed rifle is irrelevant to if someone should buy one or not. To eliminate the possibility of buying a design that fixes the enormous problems with the AR-15, you might as well eliminate the possibility of buying one at all.
That isn't what I said, George. Your attachment to an objectively badly designed rifle is irrelevant to if someone should buy one or not. To eliminate the possibility of buying a design that fixes the enormous problems with the AR-15, you might as well eliminate the possibility of buying one at all.
I wouldn't eliminate it entirely. I mean you could argue all day that it's a terrible battle rifle (and I don't agree, but don't feel much like having the argument), but the AR can still be fun for an enthusiast. For one thing, the shear number of barrel selections make it an interesting gun. You can make it anything from a tactical carbine to a sniper rifle. Also, a good AR these days in America costs about as much as a good AK. Are there guns other than the AK, yeah but they're generally very pricey. An MSAR is tough to find for less than $1500.
I mean you could argue all day that it's a terrible battle rifle (and I don't agree, but don't feel much like having the argument), but the AR can still be fun for an enthusiast
I wouldn't say all day. It wouldn't take me much more than five minutes. It is a pile of shit as a combat rifle, and I honestly hate being this blunt with you of all people, but you can disagree all you like, you're still wrong.
For an Enthusiast, maybe. It's an okay bench rifle or target rifle, if you're very patient and very fastidious in your maintenance, and you have some experience - I refuse to recommend this to someone just starting out, however, you need to get all that early on dopeyness and inexperience out of your system before you buy an AR-15, simply because if you're going to keep one as an enthusiast, it needs more TLC and is more complex than many other rifles, and they can be quite expensive to fix if you fuck it up.
You can make it anything from a tactical carbine to a sniper rifle
Carbine, Okay, sure, no worries. But Sniper rifle? It'll take way more than a barrel to turn your AR-15 into a sniper rifle, or even a Marksman's rifle. Shit, the sniper rifle that's directly based on the AR-15 design, the SR-25, is only 60% parts compatible with the AR-15 or M-16. IIRC - and I know I do, don't play - the Bolt Carrier assembly, Barrel and barrel assembly, hammer and the upper and lower receiver are not straight compatible.
I know you like them, but I gotta draw the line there - No matter what you do, you can't make your AR-15 into a sniper rifle without changing it so much that it ends up being questionable if it's even an AR-15 anymore. At the very least, there is no way in hell you're going to make an AR-15 into a sniper rifle with just a barrel change and (I presume you would also include) adding a scope. It simply is not accurate enough for that application with so little modification. It's the equivalent of saying that putting an engine on a child's hot-wheels electric car makes it into an exotic supercar.
Edit - Okay, that was a little too harsh. You could make an okay-in-function Marksman's rifle out of an AR-15, I suppose.
The ACR (Masada) was so much better before Bushmaster bought it. So expensive
Considering how filthily nice that rifle is, I think "Heartbreakingly expensive" is a legitimate expression to use. What is it now, about three grand? Goddamn.
So I want a 5.56 "battle rifle", something with good accuracy, good ergonomics and the ability to put flashlights and other accessories on it if I want. What do I get if I don't get an AR? I'm hunting for opinions here. I should point out that I have to be able to buy it in the US, semi-auto only, but for price lets say under 3000.
That's a good chunk of change. You can get many things if you're ready to spend that kind of money. AR's and AK's are more along the lines of $1000 guns.
That's a good chunk of change. You can get many things if you're ready to spend that kind of money. AR's and AK's are more along the lines of $1000 guns.
If you pay $1000 for a run of the mill civilian AK clone it had better be able to wash and wax your car and then give you a blowjob afterward because that's WAY too fucking much.
If you pay $1000 for a run of the mill civilian AK clone it had better be able to wash and wax your car and then give you a blowjob afterward because that's WAY too fucking much.
The days of $300 AK's are long over. The demand is simply too great these days.
Comments
Yeah, It's ergonomic, and looks badass, but thank you, I'll take a rifle that's going to work when I pull the trigger, rather than praying, PRAYING it's going to so much as go click.
You CAN fix it, and get a decent rifle out of it, but it's annoying and expensive, compared to just buying a rifle that isn't shit in the first place.
There are other good rifles you could buy other than just the AK, I'm not sure what your history with firearms is, though.
Oh I know there are, and I plan on having a decent collection in the future. An AK is just so widely used and supported I think it would be a good early assault rifle. Plus its a lot cheaper than some other rifles.
I've been looking at Sig's rifles and they look nice, but I don't know anyone with any first hand experience. I've also been craving a Noveske AR, but of course they cost a bit more.
Sure, it's nice to have a light rifle, an ergonomic rifle, a rifle with lower recoil - at least you didn't go with the "direct gas impingement makes it more accurate" line that some people use, show me a sub-MOA AR-15, then we can have a chat about accuracy and gas systems - But it just isn't a good design.
And yeah, you say now you've not seen many problems, but just wait till a tiny bit of grit or little shaving of brass gets down behind your ejector - and a spring-loaded ejector over a fixed ejector, too, what the fuck was Eugene Stoner thinking? - and yeah, the smallest bits of whateverthefuck can cause a stuck ejector because it's an anemic little piece of shit with far too close tolerances for anything but a bench-rest target rifle.. Which is real bad, because not only do you have a nasty double feed, but the only way to fix it is to drop the mag and smash it against something sturdy a few times(and by a few, we're talking "Till you're able to move the action again"), butt first. Which can break the stock, or bend the rifle in a few different points, if you're unlucky, it's a toss up. Not to mention you're doing all of this with a live round in. Not my idea of fun.
As for the old "Works great if you clean it!" - yeah, I don't buy it, considering you need specialty tools, coupled with lots of time and patience to get it properly clean. I mean, for a start, you've got a gun that's blowing carbon and hot gas into the action, which generally you need to scrape off - since we know what heat and pressure does to carbon! - but be careful not to scratch anything up too bad. Not to mention, it's all through the Bolt and carrier assembly, and all over the firing pin - that shit just gets everywhere. Lower receiver, make sure you get all the little hard to reach places down in there - pipe cleaners and cotton buds, make sure you stock up heavily - then into the upper receiver, the charging handle raceway, the gas tube itself(yeah, make really sure you clean that, because you don't even need a full blockage to build up enough heat and pressure under sustained fire to pop that tiny little fucker), and then on to the chamber. Solvents, strange brushes, vicious language, all are required. And don't forget to get in behind and under those stupid little lugs! Don't worry if it's not a perfect job - without some extra tools, you're not going to get it properly clean anyway, so don't stress too much right now. And then, after all that, do the barrel like a regular rifle.
Let's face it, sure, it works fine if you treat it like a Faberge egg. But it's a rifle, and on top of that, a rifle that was designed as a combat rifle, and while I can not, will not, and absolutely refuse to say that regular maintenance isn't an absolute must for any rifle, you also shouldn't have to treat your rifle like a Faberge Egg. Then you are, frankly, mad as a sack of hammers. Sure, you might not get a Non-DI AR, that's fine, but it fouls the breech, greatly accelerates wear and tear, means you have to be real careful with what ammo you run through it, can reduce accuracy, and so on. Frankly, there is a damned good reason that most rifles don't use direct gas impingement - because it's a ridiculously stupid idea, and the few advantages will never outweigh the disadvantages. You are dedicating yourself to an objectively bad rifle. Think - how many new rifles have come out since the AR-15 with direct gas impingement? Hell, the company it keeps on that score are mostly middle-of-the-last-century rifles that were abandoned after a decade or so.
Buy one of the many AK style guns. A Daewoo DR-200. A Kel-tec SU-16C. Anything but a gas-piston upper AR.
For an Enthusiast, maybe. It's an okay bench rifle or target rifle, if you're very patient and very fastidious in your maintenance, and you have some experience - I refuse to recommend this to someone just starting out, however, you need to get all that early on dopeyness and inexperience out of your system before you buy an AR-15, simply because if you're going to keep one as an enthusiast, it needs more TLC and is more complex than many other rifles, and they can be quite expensive to fix if you fuck it up. Carbine, Okay, sure, no worries.
But Sniper rifle? It'll take way more than a barrel to turn your AR-15 into a sniper rifle, or even a Marksman's rifle. Shit, the sniper rifle that's directly based on the AR-15 design, the SR-25, is only 60% parts compatible with the AR-15 or M-16. IIRC - and I know I do, don't play - the Bolt Carrier assembly, Barrel and barrel assembly, hammer and the upper and lower receiver are not straight compatible.
I know you like them, but I gotta draw the line there - No matter what you do, you can't make your AR-15 into a sniper rifle without changing it so much that it ends up being questionable if it's even an AR-15 anymore. At the very least, there is no way in hell you're going to make an AR-15 into a sniper rifle with just a barrel change and (I presume you would also include) adding a scope. It simply is not accurate enough for that application with so little modification. It's the equivalent of saying that putting an engine on a child's hot-wheels electric car makes it into an exotic supercar.
Edit - Okay, that was a little too harsh. You could make an okay-in-function Marksman's rifle out of an AR-15, I suppose.
I hear the Barret REC7 is pretty nice.
There is also the Robinson armament XCR, but I'm only passingly familiar with it.
But if you're not feeling any of that, you could always get a Bushmaster ACR for $2,349. Also, Warning for obnoxious auto-playing music.
(Yeah, I've been around here long enough to put a bit of fudge factor in my numbers when I'm going from memory, just in case people want to get cute.)