I've always thought that I'd be more likely to take risks with my professional life if I didn't have to worry about a failure becoming such an epic failure.
For instance, I've been considering putting together a 24 hour coffee shop for a few years now, since my local area doesn't have anything like that and I think there is a market for it. I've done some preliminary research into just how much business there would be, and I believe it could be maintainable. However, the main problems with starting the business would be the fact that I can't hold down my current job and still open the coffee shop, and that I wouldn't be able to pay for healthcare for the first few precious years of the shop's start up. And that's a risk I simply can't afford to take at this point in my life.
So really, having a decent safety net could certainly encourage entrepreneurship.
Idea: If we had truly universal healthcare, supported by progressive taxation, we would see much more self-reliance, entrepreneurship, and self-employment, along with increased volunteer work at large.
Reasoning: the biggest dangers of self-employment and cottage industry is the hurdle presented by health care. People cannot afford to take a "break" for volunteer work between jobs without losing their necessary benefits (COBRA is far too expensive for most people, and is limited in nature), and small businesses often don't hire or under-employ solely due to the insane cost of providing health care to full time employees.
How many people would work niche cottage industries, like online tutoring or artistic pursuits, if all they had to cover were their own basic living expenses (rent, food, minimal savings)?
We would decrease unemployment by allowing more motivated people to self-employ, freeing more traditional jobs for those who aren't willing or able to do so. We would increase the average individual's ability to accept employment risk or attempt to start a business. We would increase the likelihood of small businesses hiring more people for more hours.
And the burden of this, rather than falling heavily on smaller businesses, would be progressively distributed through basic taxation.
This is a good idea. I want this.
Do you think it will ever happen?
Isn't this forcing people to buy a product whether they want to or not? Do you consider healthcare on the same level with roads, police and fire service?
Isn't this forcing people to buy a product whether they want to or not? Do you consider healthcare on the same level with roads, police and fire service?
Isn't this forcing people to buy a product whether they want to or not? Do you consider healthcare on the same level with roads, police and fire service?
Speaking as someone who has been without it for years -yes.
Isn't this forcing people to buy a product whether they want to or not? Do you consider healthcare on the same level with roads, police and fire service?
No. Healthcare isn't on the same level of roads, police and fire service. Healthcare is a basic human right. So it should be on the same level as clean water.
Isn't this forcing people to buy a product whether they want to or not? Do you consider healthcare on the same level with roads, police and fire service?
Ok, you don't want to pay for fire men? Fine. When your house burns we let it burn. Oh, but wait, that puts your neighbor's house at risk, so we can't just let your house burn.
Health care is the same. Oh, you don't want to pay for health care. So we ban you from the doctor and the hospital. Oh, but wait. That means you didn't get vaccinated. Now you are putting everyone around you at risk. We should actually just force everyone to get vaccinated, whether they like it or not. Look at the measles outbreaks in areas where hippy parents won't get their kids vaccinated.
There's also the economics to consider. Let's say you only had to pay for the fire department when you actually needed them. Nobody could afford it. The cost of maintaining a fire department is a lot of moneys. Let's pretend your town only had ten fires in a year. You think ten households could afford the entire budget of the fire department?
Health care is the same. Do you have any idea how much it costs to have a hospital? The expensive machines. The expensive research. The expensive training and staff. It costs a fortune. If people only paid for medical service when they needed it, nobody could afford it.
The only way it is economically feasible to have these expensive things is to share them. Everyone chips in to buy the expensive MRI machine at the hospital, even the people who will never use it. That way it's there for whoever needs it.
Right now we share the cost of health care via insurance. That's what insurance is, it's cost sharing. Everyone pays whether they use it or not. Having government health care is really no different than having insurance. Money is taking out of your paycheck every month either way, it's just listed as tax instead of as benefits. The benefit is that there will actually be greater efficiency and lower cost because everyone is putting the money in the same pot.
And not having the ability to actually afford health care puts the people around you at risk, a la the measles outbreak.
And to head off a potential side conversation, no, you should not be allowed to turn down vaccinations for any reason other than a demonstrable physiological one. Allergic to the vaccine medium? You get a pass. Think that vaccines cause autism? Fuck you.
I think I differ with the mandatory health care argument. That's a whole other monster.
If you don't want health care, and want to put others at risk, I think that should be ok. Your alternative is exile. You can live, but you can't live with us and put our lives at risk.
Isn't this forcing people to buy a product whether they want to or not? Do you consider healthcare on the same level with roads, police and fire service?
Ok, you don't want to pay for fire men? Fine. When your house burns we let it burn. Oh, but wait, that puts your neighbor's house at risk, so we can't just let your house burn.
Health care is the same. Oh, you don't want to pay for health care. So we ban you from the doctor and the hospital. Oh, but wait. That means you didn't get vaccinated. Now you are putting everyone around you at risk. We should actually just force everyone to get vaccinated, whether they like it or not. Look at the measles outbreaks in areas where hippy parents won't get their kids vaccinated.
There's also the economics to consider. Let's say you only had to pay for the fire department when you actually needed them. Nobody could afford it. The cost of maintaining a fire department is a lot of moneys. Let's pretend your town only had ten fires in a year. You think ten households could afford the entire budget of the fire department?
Health care is the same. Do you have any idea how much it costs to have a hospital? The expensive machines. The expensive research. The expensive training and staff. It costs a fortune. If people only paid for medical service when they needed it, nobody could afford it.
The only way it is economically feasible to have these expensive things is to share them. Everyone chips in to buy the expensive MRI machine at the hospital, even the people who will never use it. That way it's there for whoever needs it.
Right now we share the cost of health care via insurance. That's what insurance is, it's cost sharing. Everyone pays whether they use it or not. Having government health care is really no different than having insurance. Money is taking out of your paycheck every month either way, it's just listed as tax instead of as benefits. The benefit is that there will actually be greater efficiency and lower cost because everyone is putting the money in the same pot.
Isn't the solution that we figure out how to bring down the cost of medical care, not to force that cost on everyone? we all chip into fire and police because that is the best way, you can't have a competitive market for those. Firefighters bunker gear alone is 8 grand no small group of people could hold that cost.
Isn't this forcing people to buy a product whether they want to or not? Do you consider healthcare on the same level with roads, police and fire service?
Ok, you don't want to pay for fire men? Fine. When your house burns we let it burn. Oh, but wait, that puts your neighbor's house at risk, so we can't just let your house burn.
Health care is the same. Oh, you don't want to pay for health care. So we ban you from the doctor and the hospital. Oh, but wait. That means you didn't get vaccinated. Now you are putting everyone around you at risk. We should actually just force everyone to get vaccinated, whether they like it or not. Look at the measles outbreaks in areas where hippy parents won't get their kids vaccinated.
There's also the economics to consider. Let's say you only had to pay for the fire department when you actually needed them. Nobody could afford it. The cost of maintaining a fire department is a lot of moneys. Let's pretend your town only had ten fires in a year. You think ten households could afford the entire budget of the fire department?
Health care is the same. Do you have any idea how much it costs to have a hospital? The expensive machines. The expensive research. The expensive training and staff. It costs a fortune. If people only paid for medical service when they needed it, nobody could afford it.
The only way it is economically feasible to have these expensive things is to share them. Everyone chips in to buy the expensive MRI machine at the hospital, even the people who will never use it. That way it's there for whoever needs it.
Right now we share the cost of health care via insurance. That's what insurance is, it's cost sharing. Everyone pays whether they use it or not. Having government health care is really no different than having insurance. Money is taking out of your paycheck every month either way, it's just listed as tax instead of as benefits. The benefit is that there will actually be greater efficiency and lower cost because everyone is putting the money in the same pot.
Isn't the solution that we figure out how to bring down the cost of medical care, not to force that cost on everyone? we all chip into fire and police because that is the best way, you can't have a competitive market for those. Firefighters bunker gear alone is 8 grand no small group of people could hold that cost.
The free market argument? Yeah, the free market has given us a really, really good health care system.
Seriously, getting medical costs down is a great talking point and all but is a long term and incredibly difficult problem to address. Doctors command high salaries, for instance, in part because of their incredibly high student loans and malpractice insurance. Medical machinery is expensive because, well, it can literally mean the difference between life and death and quality costs money.
But I oversimplify the matter there. If we all (all x million of us who can pay taxes) chipped in to a government medical plan, we would spread out the cost FAR more evenly. Also, think of the pressure that a medical plan with 100 million subscribers could put on healthcare providers. They could have far more negotiating power for things like medical equipment.
Isn't this forcing people to buy a product whether they want to or not? Do you consider healthcare on the same level with roads, police and fire service?
Ok, you don't want to pay for fire men? Fine. When your house burns we let it burn. Oh, but wait, that puts your neighbor's house at risk, so we can't just let your house burn.
Health care is the same. Oh, you don't want to pay for health care. So we ban you from the doctor and the hospital. Oh, but wait. That means you didn't get vaccinated. Now you are putting everyone around you at risk. We should actually just force everyone to get vaccinated, whether they like it or not. Look at the measles outbreaks in areas where hippy parents won't get their kids vaccinated.
There's also the economics to consider. Let's say you only had to pay for the fire department when you actually needed them. Nobody could afford it. The cost of maintaining a fire department is a lot of moneys. Let's pretend your to wn only had ten fires in a year. You think ten households could afford the entire budget of the fire department?
Health care is the same. Do you have any idea how much it costs to have a hospital? The expensive machines. The expensive research. The expensive training and staff. It costs a fortune. If people only paid for medical service when they needed it, nobody could afford it.
The only way it is economically feasible to have these expensive things is to share them. Everyone chips in to buy the expensive MRI machine at the hospital, even the people who will never use it. That way it's there for whoever needs it.
Right now we share the cost of health care via insurance. That's what insurance is, it's cost sharing. Everyone pays whether they use it or not. Having government health care is really no different than having insurance. Money is taking out of your paycheck every month either way, it's just listed as tax instead of as benefits. The benefit is that there will actually be greater efficiency and lower cost because everyone is putting the money in the same pot.
Isn't the solution that we figure out how to bring down the cost of medical care, not to force that cost on everyone? we all chip into fire and police because that is the best way, you can't have a competitive market for those. Firefighters bunker gear alone is 8 grand no small group of people could hold that cost.
The free market argument? Yeah, the free market has given us a really, really good health care system.
I thought we were talking about entrepreneurship. Where but the free market would you want that to happen?
Isn't the solution that we figure out how to bring down the cost of medical care, not to force that cost on everyone? we all chip into fire and police because that is the best way, you can't have a competitive market for those. Firefighters bunker gear alone is 8 grand no small group of people could hold that cost.
Yeah, sure we can get the cost down. An MRI machine can cost up to $3 million dollars. If we get the cost down, maybe we can get it to $1.5 million or so. That's just one piece of equipment in the hospital of which there are thousands. And that's just one hospital, of which we need thousands. In other words, medical care for everyone in the US costs trillions.
Isn't the real question "Why shouldn't healthcare be a basic human right?", rather than "Why should I pay for someone else's healthcare?"
Another human right is freedom of speech. Do you know anyone who doesn't want freedom of speech for themselves? Surely some people don't want freedom of speech for others, but I don't know of anyone who wants their own speech unduly restricted. Also, freedom of speech doesn't cost money. You don't have to pay money to talk.
Health care is something that some people actually don't want for themselves. There are people out there who don't want to go to a doctor. They would rather die than ever take any medicine or have any surgery or anything. Also, health care costs money, so there are also people who may want health care, but are unwilling to pay for it. They might take it for free, but they are unwilling to bear the cost of money to extend their life. They would rather live a shorter life and spend that money on something else.
Isn't the real question "Why shouldn't healthcare be a basic human right?", rather than "Why should I pay for someone else's healthcare?"
Another human right is freedom of speech. Do you know anyone who doesn't want freedom of speech for themselves? Surely some people don't want freedom of speech for others, but I don't know of anyone who wants their own speech unduly restricted. Also, freedom of speech doesn't cost money. You don't have to pay money to talk.
Health care is something that some people actually don't want for themselves. There are people out there who don't want to go to a doctor. They would rather die than ever take any medicine or have any surgery or anything. Also, health care costs money, so there are also people who may want health care, but are unwilling to pay for it. They might take it for free, but they are unwilling to bear the cost of money to extend their life. They would rather live a shorter life and spend that money on something else.
There needs to be a system that doesn't punish the healthy. I'm all for cancer treatment for kids and transplants for wounded soliders but why should someone front costs for people smoking two packs a day and eating nothing but delicious bacon
My only issue with the mandatory Heath Insurance is that you are mandating that I have to buy a product from a private company. I find that I am being compelled by law to support a for profit industry a terrible thing. The only things in like that I should have to do are pay my taxes and die.
Just make it a public healthcare system and tax me already! Why should I help to line the pockets of investors and the CEO? That just seems weird to me. If I have to pay, that is a tax. Taxes go to the government.
Isn't the real question "Why shouldn't healthcare be a basic human right?", rather than "Why should I pay for someone else's healthcare?"
Another human right is freedom of speech. Do you know anyone who doesn't want freedom of speech for themselves? Surely some people don't want freedom of speech for others, but I don't know of anyone who wants their own speech unduly restricted. Also, freedom of speech doesn't cost money. You don't have to pay money to talk.
Health care is something that some people actually don't want for themselves. There are people out there who don't want to go to a doctor. They would rather die than ever take any medicine or have any surgery or anything. Also, health care costs money, so there are also people who may want health care, but are unwilling to pay for it. They might take it for free, but they are unwilling to bear the cost of money to extend their life. They would rather live a shorter life and spend that money on something else.
There needs to be a system that doesn't punish the healthy. I'm all for cancer treatment for kids and transplants for wounded soliders but why should someone front costs for people smoking two packs a day and eating nothing but delicious bacon
Driving a car is the most dangerous thing anyone can possibly do. Much more dangerous than eating bacon or even smoking. I guess under your health insurance idea we have to ban all motor vehicles. Or maybe we should just deny health care to anyone who ever gets in a car. They are knowingly and willingly putting themselves in mortal danger, so we shouldn't pay for them.
And let's say we were going to deny people's health care if they smoked or ate bacon. Ok, how are we going to monitor that? The government will monitor the diet of every citizen to the calorie? Watch everyone 24/7. Sounds like a great place to live.
Do you see how stupid your thinking is? You are putting the value of your dollar as higher than the value of human life and human freedom. It's really disgusting when you think about it.
You are basically saying "Go die poor person! My dollars are more important than your life."
I am saying "Hello complete stranger. You are a human, and your life and freedom are more important than all the dollars."
Every hospital doesn't need to have an MRI machine or a cancer wing. For a government run health care system to really work well the entire hospital system will need to be redesigned.
We would need a mixture of non-critical care facilities in most towns with critical care centers centralized to serve multiple areas without overlapping coverage too much.
Critical care centers would also need the leeway to turn away non-critical condition patients.
I don't see an easy way to overlay a government run health care system on top of our for-profit medical system.
Doesn't insurance "punish the healthy" anyway? You're having to pay the price for someone else's terrible life choices, just in the form of your premiums and deductible.
Scott's point is really good, actually. I'm going to have to think on that one. I don't know how to respond to people who simply don't want to pay for any healthcare.
Scott's point is really good, actually. I'm going to have to think on that one. I don't know how to respond to people who simply don't want to pay for any healthcare.
Isn't the real question "Why shouldn't healthcare be a basic human right?", rather than "Why should I pay for someone else's healthcare?"
Another human right is freedom of speech. Do you know anyone who doesn't want freedom of speech for themselves? Surely some people don't want freedom of speech for others, but I don't know of anyone who wants their own speech unduly restricted. Also, freedom of speech doesn't cost money. You don't have to pay money to talk.
Health care is something that some people actually don't want for themselves. There are people out there who don't want to go to a doctor. They would rather die than ever take any medicine or have any surgery or anything. Also, health care costs money, so there are also people who may want health care, but are unwilling to pay for it. They might take it for free, but they are unwilling to bear the cost of money to extend their life. They would rather live a shorter life and spend that money on something else.
There needs to be a system that doesn't punish the healthy. I'm all for cancer treatment for kids and transplants for wounded soliders but why should someone front costs for people smoking two packs a day and eating nothing but delicious bacon
Driving a car is the most dangerous thing anyone can possibly do. Much more dangerous than eating bacon or even smoking. I guess under your health insurance idea we have to ban all motor vehicles. Or maybe we should just deny health care to anyone who ever gets in a car. They are knowingly and willingly putting themselves in mortal danger, so we shouldn't pay for them.
Do you see how stupid your thinking is?
No, not in the least. This is the exact reason I often opt out of health plans it is cheaper for me to just pay out of pocket when I need to. I only have it now because my company paid me to
There needs to be a system that doesn't punish the healthy. I'm all for cancer treatment for kids and transplants for wounded soliders but why should someone front costs for people smoking two packs a day and eating nothing but delicious bacon
Oh, but I am already "punished." I hardly ever get sick but I get a bunch of money taken out of my paycheck every month to pay for the health insurance I get through my job. Most of that money goes to old people! But I am not so old, why should I have to pay for all these sickly old people. Waaah! (sarcasm, of course.) No, seriously, you are kind of missing the point of health insurance. Healthy people take a loss on the off chance they get hit by a car or get appendicitis. It isn't punishment, it is the reality of shared risk. Maybe health care provided doctors can get them off tabacco and on a diet. You are going to be stuck with people who make stupid decisions in any group. I mean, I should know, I am an American.
Someone is dying in the street. You don't know them. You don't know why they are dying. You do know you can save them with money, which you have. Do you pay to save them?
No, not in the least. This is the exact reason I often opt out of health plans it is cheaper for me to just pay out of pocket when I need to. I only have it now because my company paid me to
...wow. So if you had the choice, you'd not pay for insurance? Do you have the $300k+ it would take to treat you if you happened to get cancer? Or the $10k it would cost to have a kid at a hospital?
Comments
For instance, I've been considering putting together a 24 hour coffee shop for a few years now, since my local area doesn't have anything like that and I think there is a market for it. I've done some preliminary research into just how much business there would be, and I believe it could be maintainable. However, the main problems with starting the business would be the fact that I can't hold down my current job and still open the coffee shop, and that I wouldn't be able to pay for healthcare for the first few precious years of the shop's start up. And that's a risk I simply can't afford to take at this point in my life.
So really, having a decent safety net could certainly encourage entrepreneurship.
link
That was easy.
Health care is the same. Oh, you don't want to pay for health care. So we ban you from the doctor and the hospital. Oh, but wait. That means you didn't get vaccinated. Now you are putting everyone around you at risk. We should actually just force everyone to get vaccinated, whether they like it or not. Look at the measles outbreaks in areas where hippy parents won't get their kids vaccinated.
There's also the economics to consider. Let's say you only had to pay for the fire department when you actually needed them. Nobody could afford it. The cost of maintaining a fire department is a lot of moneys. Let's pretend your town only had ten fires in a year. You think ten households could afford the entire budget of the fire department?
Health care is the same. Do you have any idea how much it costs to have a hospital? The expensive machines. The expensive research. The expensive training and staff. It costs a fortune. If people only paid for medical service when they needed it, nobody could afford it.
The only way it is economically feasible to have these expensive things is to share them. Everyone chips in to buy the expensive MRI machine at the hospital, even the people who will never use it. That way it's there for whoever needs it.
Right now we share the cost of health care via insurance. That's what insurance is, it's cost sharing. Everyone pays whether they use it or not. Having government health care is really no different than having insurance. Money is taking out of your paycheck every month either way, it's just listed as tax instead of as benefits. The benefit is that there will actually be greater efficiency and lower cost because everyone is putting the money in the same pot.
And to head off a potential side conversation, no, you should not be allowed to turn down vaccinations for any reason other than a demonstrable physiological one. Allergic to the vaccine medium? You get a pass. Think that vaccines cause autism? Fuck you.
Seriously, getting medical costs down is a great talking point and all but is a long term and incredibly difficult problem to address. Doctors command high salaries, for instance, in part because of their incredibly high student loans and malpractice insurance. Medical machinery is expensive because, well, it can literally mean the difference between life and death and quality costs money.
But I oversimplify the matter there. If we all (all x million of us who can pay taxes) chipped in to a government medical plan, we would spread out the cost FAR more evenly. Also, think of the pressure that a medical plan with 100 million subscribers could put on healthcare providers. They could have far more negotiating power for things like medical equipment.
Health care is something that some people actually don't want for themselves. There are people out there who don't want to go to a doctor. They would rather die than ever take any medicine or have any surgery or anything. Also, health care costs money, so there are also people who may want health care, but are unwilling to pay for it. They might take it for free, but they are unwilling to bear the cost of money to extend their life. They would rather live a shorter life and spend that money on something else.
My only issue with the mandatory Heath Insurance is that you are mandating that I have to buy a product from a private company. I find that I am being compelled by law to support a for profit industry a terrible thing. The only things in like that I should have to do are pay my taxes and die.
Just make it a public healthcare system and tax me already! Why should I help to line the pockets of investors and the CEO? That just seems weird to me. If I have to pay, that is a tax. Taxes go to the government.
And let's say we were going to deny people's health care if they smoked or ate bacon. Ok, how are we going to monitor that? The government will monitor the diet of every citizen to the calorie? Watch everyone 24/7. Sounds like a great place to live.
Do you see how stupid your thinking is? You are putting the value of your dollar as higher than the value of human life and human freedom. It's really disgusting when you think about it.
You are basically saying "Go die poor person! My dollars are more important than your life."
I am saying "Hello complete stranger. You are a human, and your life and freedom are more important than all the dollars."
We would need a mixture of non-critical care facilities in most towns with critical care centers centralized to serve multiple areas without overlapping coverage too much.
Critical care centers would also need the leeway to turn away non-critical condition patients.
I don't see an easy way to overlay a government run health care system on top of our for-profit medical system.
Scott's point is really good, actually. I'm going to have to think on that one. I don't know how to respond to people who simply don't want to pay for any healthcare.
No, seriously, you are kind of missing the point of health insurance. Healthy people take a loss on the off chance they get hit by a car or get appendicitis. It isn't punishment, it is the reality of shared risk. Maybe health care provided doctors can get them off tabacco and on a diet. You are going to be stuck with people who make stupid decisions in any group. I mean, I should know, I am an American.
...wow. So if you had the choice, you'd not pay for insurance? Do you have the $300k+ it would take to treat you if you happened to get cancer? Or the $10k it would cost to have a kid at a hospital?