But seriously, why don't all 50 states have recall procedures? Shouldn't we just be able to fucking fire our representatives when they don't do their fucking jobs?
This could be a new way to approach the situation. Instead of gunning for sweeping pie-in-the-sky reforms, why not gun for recall procedures for all Congressional representatives?
Then, when someone is fucking something up, we can start recalling representatives. Will it throw everything into turmoil? Absolutely. Will it make representatives actually start caring about doing their job for fear of being recalled by a pissed off public? Just maybe.
Option 2, as always, is burn the fucker down. It's a bad idea to be sure, but what the hell.
But seriously, why don't all 50 states have recall procedures? Shouldn't we just be able to fucking fire our representatives when they don't do their fucking jobs?
This could be a new way to approach the situation. Instead of gunning for sweeping pie-in-the-sky reforms, why not gun for recall procedures for all Congressional representatives?
Why do we still have a representative government? All of these problems seem to be a result of this archaic system.
The only alternatives I can think of require heavy use of technology and education. Plus, to implement them we'd have to have some kind of transitionary dictatorship / meritocratic oligarchy. It would have to be unilateral enough to enact the tough laws, but have built in mechanisms that cede power back to the populace after a certain amount of time.
EDIT: Yep, what Scott said.
EDIT2: In either case, I'm a proponent of constitutional conventions. I think it would be interesting to see what we would adopt if we did something like Iceland.
Some things that could help too to prevent the logjams 1. Eliminate the filibuster: It is a noble idea to prevent tyranny of a majority but the GOP has misused the toy so we have to just take it away from everyone. The reason the Affordable Care Act was so diluted was they had to cater to Ben Nelson and Joe Liebermann to get 60 votes rather than 51 (or 50 cause of Biden) The GOP moves in lockstep and has made the wheels of government grind to a halt. Which brings us to...
2. Make the Senate able to vote to remove an executive appointee but not require their approval. This one is actually more difficult than above, but is another way to clear the logjam. It takes more political courage to forbid an appointee than to just sit on their nomination and never let it happen. The executive and lots of the judiciary was still understaffed during 2010 because of filibustering nearly every nominee Obama put forward.
A true democracy is total mob rule, without some check on the majority and powers for the minority the government would fall apart and be screwed in the long run.
If you still want democracy everyone casts their own vote instead of voting for people who then vote for us.
Pure democracy is ludicrous and would be far worse than anything we have currently.
Then why a representative government? What is the breakdown between voting for representatives and voting directly. Is it because people would essentially troll laws that didn't have an impact on them? Or because the average person probably has no idea what they would be voting for 90% of the time? Or that the average person doesn't actually know what is in their best interest?
Is it because people would essentially troll laws that didn't have an impact on them? Or because the average person probably has no idea what they would be voting for 90% of the time? Or that the average person doesn't actually know what is in their best interest?
The whole idea of a representative republic is for the working class to pick someone smart with pretty good judgment to represent their interests. Then that rep is supposed to use his/her smarts to negotiate with the rest of the reps for the most mutually satisfactory outcome. Rather than everyone having to be educated on the issue (or vote ignorantly), we delegate that responsibility so we can run our own lives. We don't always get everything we want, but we are supposed to get a reasonable amount of what we want. If the reps actually did their jobs and weren't influenced by money, they would still be influenced by lobbies, but at least those lobbies would consist of their constituents.
Plus, you think it is hard to get anything done or compromise with the number of representatives in Congress now? Direct democracy would be a million times worse.
We don't have McGangbangs in Cleveland. Sounds like fun!
Oh, and there are many alternative governments out there. Look at China: it is essentially communism morphed into fascism with capitalist elements. It is an unfortunate but very powerful combination. Russia is similar and has a strong, charismatic leader. My whole point with this is that OWS is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. The rest of the world, especially the places that have real problems, has to be laughing their assess off at us.
We don't have McGangbangs in Cleveland. Sounds like fun!
Yeah you do. It's a McChicken in between the patties of a McDonald's double cheeseburger. Sometimes you can order them by name if the guy at the counter is cool.
I guess there are two main schools of thought when it comes to representative democracies. Are your representatives there to enact the collective will of their constituents or are they elected to use their best judgement, regardless of what the voters may want?
I guess there are two main schools of thought when it comes to representative democracies. Are your representatives there to enact the collective will of their constituents or are they elected to use their best judgement, regardless of what the voters may want?
Either one of those is fine. In both cases they believe they are acting for the people they represent. The problem is when they decide for their own personal gain or for big corporations or other organizations that are not their constituents.
Either one of those is fine. In both cases they believe they are acting for the people they represent. The problem is when they decide for their own personal gain or for big corporations or other organizations that are not their constituents.
What if the collective will of the mob is fucking retarded? Should the representative still enact their wishes?
Either one of those is fine. In both cases they believe they are acting for the people they represent. The problem is when they decide for their own personal gain or for big corporations or other organizations that are not their constituents.
What if the collective will of the mob is fucking retarded? Should the representative still enact their wishes?
We don't have McGangbangs in Cleveland. Sounds like fun!
Yeah you do. It's a McChicken in between the patties of a McDonald's double cheeseburger. Sometimes you can order them by name if the guy at the counter is cool.
If anyone takes anything away from this thread it should be that if you value your arteries don't ever eat this.
We don't have McGangbangs in Cleveland. Sounds like fun!
Yeah you do. It's a McChicken in between the patties of a McDonald's double cheeseburger. Sometimes you can order them by name if the guy at the counter is cool.
If anyone takes anything away from this thread it should be that if you value your arteries don't ever eat this.
If you put one of those inside of a KFC Double Down, it's called a Deep South McGangbang.
I think that the filibuster is a useful tool, but it needs to ACTUALLY HAPPEN. I don't recall when the rules changed, but this whole "threat of filibuster can stall any legislation" thing is bullshit. Something like this might help.
If we kept the system the way it is, but enforced much broader and harsher anti-corruption rules, and make it harder for Congress to not do their jobs, things would improve dramatically. Also, I'm a fan of the recall/vote of no confidence tool to remove awful people from office (and it seems that term limits help on that front as well).
We don't need a revolution. As much as we'd like to have a perfect solution, it is the enemy of good. (Voltaire, by way of Unix santas)
We don't have McGangbangs in Cleveland. Sounds like fun!
Yeah you do. It's a McChicken in between the patties of a McDonald's double cheeseburger. Sometimes you can order them by name if the guy at the counter is cool.
If anyone takes anything away from this thread it should be that if you value your arteries don't ever eat this.
If you put one of those inside of a KFC Double Down, it's called a Deep South McGangbang.
Ya'll motherfuckers, I'm gonna have to eat all of these now.
Oh, and there are many alternative governments out there. Look at China: it is essentially communism morphed into fascism with capitalist elements. It is an unfortunate but very powerful combination. Russia is similar and has a strong, charismatic leader. My whole point with this is that OWS is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. The rest of the world, especially the places that have real problems, has to be laughing their assess off at us.
This doesn't parse for me. There are worse forms of government than our system therefore the OWS protestors are stupid for criticizing it? Is that your contention or am I off base?
It is far easier to argue OWS is an arm of the last best hope for the country and that its crackdown is another blow to any hopes that the United States will be considered a superpower in another century.
Hu Jintao salutes you Bloomberg and Katehi. Keep up the good work.
The whole idea of a representative republic is for the working class to pick someone smart with pretty good judgment to represent their interests. Then that rep is supposed to use his/her smarts to negotiate with the rest of the reps for the most mutually satisfactory outcome. Rather than everyone having to be educated on the issue (or vote ignorantly), we delegate that responsibility so we can run our own lives. We don't always get everything we want, but we are supposed to get a reasonable amount of what we want. If the reps actually did their jobs and weren't influenced by money, they would still be influenced by lobbies, but at least those lobbies would consist of their constituents.
That's all true, and I might add that the idea never included a permanent political class that would just sit in the same House or Senate seat for decades and then pass that seat on to their heirs or establish political dynasties as though they were nobility. The idea was more along the lines of, go to Congress, represent your people for a term or two, then come back to your old community and do what you did before. In a few years, we might ask you to go back. It was never supposed to be a path to untold wealth and power.
Oh, and there are many alternative governments out there. Look at China: it is essentially communism morphed into fascism with capitalist elements. It is an unfortunate but very powerful combination. Russia is similar and has a strong, charismatic leader. My whole point with this is that OWS is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. The rest of the world, especially the places that have real problems, has to be laughing their assess off at us.
This doesn't parse for me. There are worse forms of government than our system therefore the OWS protestors are stupid for criticizing it? Is that your contention or am I off base?
The people who do very well in this system and the people who fancy themselves Randian heroes will, of course, think anyone who criticizes the current system is "stupid". Why don't the OWS people just pull themselves up by their own bootstraps? These are the same people who'll say things like, "Bill Gates did very well, J.K. Rowling did very well. Why can't you be more like them and quit rocking the boat?" These are the same people who say that pepper spray was a proper response.
Things are becoming interesting. I don't like to make predictions, and so this is not a prediction, but I will not be surprised at all if some actual, undeniable, lethal violence breaks out sometime soon. I just hope that, if it does, the images and stories are broadcast and published before governments and corporations can censor them.
Comments
This could be a new way to approach the situation. Instead of gunning for sweeping pie-in-the-sky reforms, why not gun for recall procedures for all Congressional representatives?
Then, when someone is fucking something up, we can start recalling representatives. Will it throw everything into turmoil? Absolutely. Will it make representatives actually start caring about doing their job for fear of being recalled by a pissed off public? Just maybe.
Option 2, as always, is burn the fucker down. It's a bad idea to be sure, but what the hell.
EDIT: Yep, what Scott said.
EDIT2: In either case, I'm a proponent of constitutional conventions. I think it would be interesting to see what we would adopt if we did something like Iceland.
1. Eliminate the filibuster: It is a noble idea to prevent tyranny of a majority but the GOP has misused the toy so we have to just take it away from everyone. The reason the Affordable Care Act was so diluted was they had to cater to Ben Nelson and Joe Liebermann to get 60 votes rather than 51 (or 50 cause of Biden) The GOP moves in lockstep and has made the wheels of government grind to a halt. Which brings us to...
2. Make the Senate able to vote to remove an executive appointee but not require their approval. This one is actually more difficult than above, but is another way to clear the logjam. It takes more political courage to forbid an appointee than to just sit on their nomination and never let it happen. The executive and lots of the judiciary was still understaffed during 2010 because of filibustering nearly every nominee Obama put forward.
Plus, you think it is hard to get anything done or compromise with the number of representatives in Congress now? Direct democracy would be a million times worse.
Oh, and there are many alternative governments out there. Look at China: it is essentially communism morphed into fascism with capitalist elements. It is an unfortunate but very powerful combination. Russia is similar and has a strong, charismatic leader. My whole point with this is that OWS is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. The rest of the world, especially the places that have real problems, has to be laughing their assess off at us.
If we kept the system the way it is, but enforced much broader and harsher anti-corruption rules, and make it harder for Congress to not do their jobs, things would improve dramatically. Also, I'm a fan of the recall/vote of no confidence tool to remove awful people from office (and it seems that term limits help on that front as well).
We don't need a revolution. As much as we'd like to have a perfect solution, it is the enemy of good. (Voltaire, by way of Unix santas)
And some places sure are laughing, in glee because they are using US Police as justification for their own crackdowns. Someone is laughing all the way to the ideological bank.
It is far easier to argue OWS is an arm of the last best hope for the country and that its crackdown is another blow to any hopes that the United States will be considered a superpower in another century.
Hu Jintao salutes you Bloomberg and Katehi. Keep up the good work.
Things are becoming interesting. I don't like to make predictions, and so this is not a prediction, but I will not be surprised at all if some actual, undeniable, lethal violence breaks out sometime soon. I just hope that, if it does, the images and stories are broadcast and published before governments and corporations can censor them.