Isn't the random crit thing somewhat like tile drawing in T&E? It's possible to draw the exact tiles you need purely by chance, but everyone is subjected to that same possibility.
Granted, T&E's luck factor tends to result in less dramatic turns of events, and the game revolves around responding to that luck, so it balances out more. Even still, if absolutely everyone is subjected to the exact same level of chance, would it not even out in the long run?
Of course, I'm betting TF2 has asymmetrical rewards that allow some players to get crits more often than others, which breaks everything.
Random crits are not the same as tile drawing in T&E. In T&E you know the odds of drawing the different tiles. It's not actually all that random. And it just forces you to approach the game with a strategy that accounts for those known odds. Also, no matter how hard you get fucked, there are ways to deal with it. Start with 6 blue tiles? Spend an action to discard, or maybe rush the big blue monument?
In TF2 what are the odds of a random crit? How does it affect your strategy? It doesn't. It's not something you can take into account. It's not something which makes player decisions more interesting in any way. It's just a slot machine element. You play as normal, and every time you shoot or get shot a little slot machine spins. Sometimes you win big, sometimes you get fucked, usually nothing happens.
The more aggressive you play and the more you hit, the better your chances are. It's a mechanism designed to encourage aggressive play. Want more crits? Player more aggressively and hit more often.
You can certainly argue that this is poorly communicated.
WUB's "graph" is just one of many models that have been proposed...
Similarly I've been reading up on Bartel's Test and a few other MMO-related ones lately.
The two linked as references 11 and 12 from the wikipedia article also seemed interesting.
Obviously this is all MMO specific, and we were talking about fun in general, but I think it says something (other than what's already been said) so-far in this thread.
So playing defense is no good? But I love playing defensively as Engi. ; _ ;
What about the adage "Offense wins games. Defense wins championships"? =P
In TF2, luck wins championships.
Come play with us. If it's just a game of luck, then the leaderboards will be completely random. If it's a game a skill, then there will be patterns
It's also a game where you have all this shit unlocked and I don't.
Also, it's not a low skill game, not a no skill game. A person who has skill against players who don't have it will still win. I played with my co-workers and they couldn't even kill me once. They could barely even shoot me once. The thing is, and we have mentioned it many times, there is a skill cap. Skill only matters to a certain extent. When all players have max skill, then the determining factors in victory will be the randomness and the persistence.
If you are seeing some people consistently winning or losing that simply means that some of the players have incredibly low skills, or they have a disadvantage from lacking unlocks, not knowing the maps, etc.
You know what, let's make a deal. I will play TF2 with you. But in exchange, you have to play Counter-Strike. Maybe I can win at gungame for the first time in my life on a private server with nobody other than you nubs. I know some of you are good at CS, like Andrew, lackofcheese, and Rym, but they're not as dangerous as the players who dominate the pub gg servers I play on. I have a chance.
Come play with us. If it's just a game of luck, then the leaderboards will be completely random. If it's a game a skill, then there will be patterns
I was playing with the forum the other night. People who were there might recall the terrible tale of when I started sniping. At one point, I'd killed the entire enemy team.
TF2 tests a number of skills. Just in different proportion to other FPSs. My head-clicking and maneuvering skill still shines through despite the randomness and low skill cap against low-to-above-average players. But on a server of all pros? We'd all be nearly identical, the skill test moving toward team coordination and other factors instead.
The minor randomness in TF2 bothers me far less than the statefulness.
You know what, let's make a deal. I will play TF2 with you. But in exchange, you have to play Counter-Strike. Maybe I can win at gungame for the first time in my life on a private server with nobody other than you nubs. I know some of you are good at CS, like Andrew, lackofcheese, and Rym, but they're not as dangerous as the players who dominate the pub gg servers I play on. I have a chance.
You should all agree to this just to get Scott into our occasional FRCF TF2 games. They're fun with the alltalk. ;^)
Alternatively you guys could play NS instead of CS. It's much more complicated, but I will gladly show you the ropes, if you can hold onto them.
You know what, let's make a deal. I will play TF2 with you. But in exchange, you have to play Counter-Strike. Maybe I can win at gungame for the first time in my life on a private server with nobody other than you nubs. I know some of you are good at CS, like Andrew, lackofcheese, and Rym, but they're not as dangerous as the players who dominate the pub gg servers I play on. I have a chance.
You should all agree to this just to get Scott into our occasional FRCF TF2 games. They're fun with the alltalk. ;^)
You should all agree to this just to get Scott into our occasional FRCF TF2 games. They're fun with the alltalk. ;^)
I just want to play against/with Scott in TF2 just to see how well he plays.
I'm so down to play. Perhaps tonight, but if not, definitely the normal scheduled Thursday after we record ATW9K. Seriously.
I'm in no way a great player, but the last FPS I really played a lot of was Goldeneye for the N64 and some Halo. L4D and TF2 are the only recent FPSs that I've actually played. I think I'm a little bit above average. I just need to learn how to use the ASD keys more.
So playing defense is no good? But I love playing defensively as Engi. ; _ ;
What about the adage "Offense wins games. Defense wins championships"? =P
When I say "aggressive" and I mean "not passive". Good defensive and offensive play is aggressive since either way you are DOING something.
Most of the engineers drop gear is designed around earning you guaranteed crits depending on what happens with your turret and other build items, so good turret play is good aggressive play.
What do people here think about putting some real moneys together to pay for quality game server hosting? It's not that expensive. We can find a place that will host a server that we can switch between the different games, or maybe even host multiple games simultaneously.
Because I do not have Quake nor have I ever played it. I only have TF2, L4D 1 & 2, and some Half-Life games. I've only played L4Ds & TF2, so my FPS knowledge is only in those games.
Because I do not have Quake nor have I ever played it. I only have TF2, L4D 1 & 2, and some Half-Life games. I've only played L4Ds & TF2, so my FPS knowledge is only in those games.
No idea. But that requires me learning the game. Why not play on a platform we both already know?
So it can be a learning experience for you.
Also, there is nothing to learn in Quake. It is the first, simplest, and most pure of all 3D FPS games. You move, you aim, you shoot, you jump. Get the most kills. That's all there is to it.
I will take up your offer first on TF2 first. Then we'll go from there.
Yeah, you guys are all acting high and mighty suggesting I come play TF2. Then the second I suggest you play CS, NS, or Quake you run like babies. I think you are all Scootaloo.
I will take up your offer first on TF2 first. Then we'll go from there.
Yeah, you guys are all acting high and mighty suggesting I come play TF2. Then the second I suggest you play CS, NS, or Quake you run like babies. I think you are all Scootaloo.
You know what, let's make a deal. I will play TF2 with you. But in exchange, you have to play Counter-Strike.
How is this Scootaloo? I'm taking you up on your offer which is to play TF2 first. You changed it up to wanting to play Quake. You're being Scootaloo.
I will take up your offer first on TF2 first. Then we'll go from there.
Yeah, you guys are all acting high and mighty suggesting I come play TF2. Then the second I suggest you play CS, NS, or Quake you run like babies. I think you are all Scootaloo.
You already have the edge of you mighty mad skillz, it's just polite to give the other party the edge of choosing the playing-field.
I will take up your offer first on TF2 first. Then we'll go from there.
Yeah, you guys are all acting high and mighty suggesting I come play TF2. Then the second I suggest you play CS, NS, or Quake you run like babies. I think you are all Scootaloo.
You know what, let's make a deal. I will play TF2 with you. But in exchange, you have to play Counter-Strike.
How is this Scootaloo? I'm taking you up on your offer which is to play TF2 first. You changed it up to watching to play Quake. You're being Scootaloo.
I just don't trust that you will actually play any of the hard games after we play TF2.
It's a possibility Scott. If I don't do it, you can give me shit about it.
I honestly have no desire to learn or play other FPS games. I just want to see your skills. Is it so wrong to play with us? Will you honestly get no enjoyment out of pwning all of us in TF2 then shit talking here on the forums about it? Is that not fun?
If I were to even play those other FPSs, I have no idea about the maps or the how to play them. I am not in any way a great player. I just like shit talking and having fun with with fellow forum people in TF2.
It was fun playing the other night when Rym and Emily joined in. I think a ton of fun was had by all.
Comments
Granted, T&E's luck factor tends to result in less dramatic turns of events, and the game revolves around responding to that luck, so it balances out more. Even still, if absolutely everyone is subjected to the exact same level of chance, would it not even out in the long run?
Of course, I'm betting TF2 has asymmetrical rewards that allow some players to get crits more often than others, which breaks everything.
In TF2 what are the odds of a random crit? How does it affect your strategy? It doesn't. It's not something you can take into account. It's not something which makes player decisions more interesting in any way. It's just a slot machine element. You play as normal, and every time you shoot or get shot a little slot machine spins. Sometimes you win big, sometimes you get fucked, usually nothing happens.
And yeah, fuck random crits in an FPS.
The more aggressive you play and the more you hit, the better your chances are. It's a mechanism designed to encourage aggressive play. Want more crits? Player more aggressively and hit more often.
You can certainly argue that this is poorly communicated.
What about the adage "Offense wins games. Defense wins championships"? =P
Similarly I've been reading up on Bartel's Test and a few other MMO-related ones lately.
The two linked as references 11 and 12 from the wikipedia article also seemed interesting.
Obviously this is all MMO specific, and we were talking about fun in general, but I think it says something (other than what's already been said) so-far in this thread.
PDF of one of the references
Also, it's not a low skill game, not a no skill game. A person who has skill against players who don't have it will still win. I played with my co-workers and they couldn't even kill me once. They could barely even shoot me once. The thing is, and we have mentioned it many times, there is a skill cap. Skill only matters to a certain extent. When all players have max skill, then the determining factors in victory will be the randomness and the persistence.
If you are seeing some people consistently winning or losing that simply means that some of the players have incredibly low skills, or they have a disadvantage from lacking unlocks, not knowing the maps, etc.
You know what, let's make a deal. I will play TF2 with you. But in exchange, you have to play Counter-Strike. Maybe I can win at gungame for the first time in my life on a private server with nobody other than you nubs. I know some of you are good at CS, like Andrew, lackofcheese, and Rym, but they're not as dangerous as the players who dominate the pub gg servers I play on. I have a chance.
TF2 tests a number of skills. Just in different proportion to other FPSs. My head-clicking and maneuvering skill still shines through despite the randomness and low skill cap against low-to-above-average players. But on a server of all pros? We'd all be nearly identical, the skill test moving toward team coordination and other factors instead.
The minor randomness in TF2 bothers me far less than the statefulness.
I'm so down to play. Perhaps tonight, but if not, definitely the normal scheduled Thursday after we record ATW9K. Seriously.
I'm in no way a great player, but the last FPS I really played a lot of was Goldeneye for the N64 and some Halo. L4D and TF2 are the only recent FPSs that I've actually played. I think I'm a little bit above average. I just need to learn how to use the ASD keys more.
What say you, Scott?
Let's play some motherfucking Quake Live!
oh wait...
Most of the engineers drop gear is designed around earning you guaranteed crits depending on what happens with your turret and other build items, so good turret play is good aggressive play.
Also, there is nothing to learn in Quake. It is the first, simplest, and most pure of all 3D FPS games. You move, you aim, you shoot, you jump. Get the most kills. That's all there is to it.
I honestly have no desire to learn or play other FPS games. I just want to see your skills. Is it so wrong to play with us? Will you honestly get no enjoyment out of pwning all of us in TF2 then shit talking here on the forums about it? Is that not fun?
If I were to even play those other FPSs, I have no idea about the maps or the how to play them. I am not in any way a great player. I just like shit talking and having fun with with fellow forum people in TF2.
It was fun playing the other night when Rym and Emily joined in. I think a ton of fun was had by all.