...they should print cards on plastic, even if it costs more.
They actually tried that. Does anybody remember hecatomb? I remember playing that game while chilling in a buddies hot tub. That was pretty boss.
WOTC axed it because the cards were too expensive to manufacture. A higher price point to make up for that might be more feasible for a LCG than a CCG but I don't have the information do any more than speculate.
The problem nowadays is that companies are purposefully skimping out on the quality of their cards for games because they know that most people will sleeve them anyway. It's one of the easiest ways to cut down on production costs. It's a rapidly growing trend in card/board games unfortunately.
There are methods of shuffling with sleeves that are just fine. You have to adapt your method slightly but it's not a huge deal at all. I'm 99% sure that this "mystical unshuffleable sleeve" is just bias on your part, Scott. Hundreds of thousands of TCG and Euro players world wide are proof.
We've had this argument/discussion so many times over. Scott, Rym, and others don't like sleeves, but they still play with them with Jeremy and my Dominion cards. I understand their viewpoint, but we prefer sleeves.
I recall posting links to various MayDay Games video tutorials on how to shuffle with sleeved cards.
If people don't like sleeves, just don't play games where people have their cards sleeved. =P
There are methods of shuffling with sleeves that are just fine. You have to adapt your method slightly but it's not a huge deal at all. I'm 99% sure that this "mystical unshuffleable sleeve" is just bias on your part, Scott. Hundreds of thousands of TCG and Euro players world wide are proof.
BEHOLD!
There are some disgustingly unshufflable sleeves. I'm pretty sure the Top Pro penny sleeves are made out of a combination of WD-40, porno-grade astroglide, black ice, and my tears as I have to chase half a deck around a room.
The problem nowadays is that companies are purposefully skimping out on the quality of their cards for games because they know that most people will sleeve them anyway. It's one of the easiest ways to cut down on production costs. It's a rapidly growing trend in card/board games unfortunately.
On the other hands, you get games like CAH and Lords of Waterdeep, where the cards are incredibly well made. It's kinda a toss-up, now-a-days.
Then get the Premium Sleeves from MayDay Games. We use them for all of our Dominion cards. While it can add up, it's an overall better investment for us, since that game has been played so much.
While those might be effective techniques for shuffling cards in sleeves, those are not proper shuffles. The standard riffle shuffle is the correct way of shuffling cards for games, period. End of story. Go to a casino game table, what do they do? The riffle shuffle. A casino dealer doing any other shuffle would be reprimanded, suspected of cheating, and/or fired. Any other shuffling method is not acceptable.
Sleeving cards prevents them from being shuffled using the riffle shuffle and forces the use of these alternative techniques which are inefficient at best and at worst untrustworthy. I find these improper shuffles more offensive than the threat of possibly marked cards.
So anyone who uses any other shuffling methods aside from the riffle, even unsleeved, is offensive? o_O
Yes. If you have a deck of cards, and you are about to play a game with them, I consider any non-riffle shuffle to be suspect. This is why so often when there is a game to be played with a single deck I attempt to grab hold of shuffling duties. Even when it doesn't matter like Dixit, CAH, Illuminati, etc. I like to be the shuffler/dealer unless someone else who is not Rym proves they can also shuffle properly.
Also, if someone is known to have practiced sleight of hand or card tricks I don't like them shuffling using any method.
Difference: Dude is doing all sorts of other flashy and distracting moves and shuffles besides just straight shuffling a few times. Also, when he puts the cards back together after supposedly riffling it looks like he undoes the riffle. If anyone started doing that kind of shit before a game, I'd give them the finger.
So anyway, I think for my first custom decks I'm just going to slightly modify the standard decks. I'll remove some of the cards that have not been useful. Then I'll take some of the good cards there are only one or two of, and increase it to three. Then if there's room I'll just take a small number of generically useful cards from other factions and influence them in.
The deck construction limitations really give me a similar feel to character burning in BW more than the feel of making a M:TG deck. There are so many limitations, and still so few cards, that you really can't go crazy. Once you choose a faction, so many cards are already mandatory you can't escape them, especially for the corporation that has to include agendas.
It's actually not that hard to learn basic control techniques. First/last card control is something you could learn in five minutes, and is the basis of quite a few tricks.
That said, ever since I learned just those two basic techniques, I've become incredibly suspicious of anyone who does an overhand shuffle.
Controlling a riffle shuffle is basic card control for closeup magic. There are very few shuffles that are proof against someone with a decent level of skill and dexterity - in fact, it's most commonly used because people think it can't be gaffed, so it makes the trick that much more impressive.
Edit - Whups, next page. still, you know what I'm talking about.
With a few minutes to kill I decided to read up on statistics of shuffling and what is needed for "true" randomness. According to a fellow named Diaconis, the number of riffles needed to achieve that is 7, although some would argue 6. So we have a range.
I then conducted the following test...
"Take a standard deck without the jokers. Divide it into suits with two suits in ascending order from ace to king, and the other two suits in reverse. (Many decks already come ordered this way when new.) Shuffle to your satisfaction. Then go through the deck trying to pull out each suit in the order ace, two, three ... When you reach the top of the deck, start over. How many passes did it take to pull out each suit?"
I gave the deck 7 riffle shuffles that I'd give any deck of cards at my normal speed, not making any special effort to make perfect cuts or give any extra time/effort to the shuffles themselves.
It took me 8 passes to sort the deck as described above. For reference, a "perfect" score is 1 and from the base state it requires 13. Slightly above the mean, but enough to call it "normal". Meaning I'm not chunking parts of the deck and such.
I then sleeved up the deck and arranged it as above. I then gave it 7 wedge shuffles, which is how I (and most TCG players I've seen) shuffle my sleeved cards. This also took 8 passes to sort it back out.
I know this is a sample size of one but it's difficult to mathematically simulate how sleeved cards shuffle versus unsleeved ones. What I take away from this quick science experiment is that I can shuffle just as effectively sleeved as I can unsleeved from a pure randomness standpoint. I usually throw in a mix of shuffling methods to really spice it up.
Sleeves are as evil as the haters would have you believe, kids!
It's definitely possible to shuffle equally randomly using many methods. Even just "washing" the cards is really effective. That's when you dump them on the table, mush them around like mahjong tiles, and put them back together. It's just really inefficient and inelegant. The standard riffle shuffle is FAST. Babam! Cards are mixed up.
It's also simply the most comfortable shuffle. Even when I have shuffled sleeved cards using other methods, it is always clumsy. Cards be falling all over the place.
I think a good way to look at it is as if you didn't know how to shuffle cards at all, like the people you and Rym call out in your panels. It takes time, practice, and patience but it's really learn-able.
What I CANNOT unlearn in a silly mechanic I learned to shuffle Magic card so they stayed with their backs pointing in the same direction.
The developers of NS2 wrote up a nice little piece on Android: Netrunner which really seems to capture why the game is fun and gives a general explanation on how the game works.
Summary: You play swiss. Against each opponent you play each side once. NFL coin toss to see which one first. There is a time limit for the two games. There are two kinds of points. You get one kind of point for every agenda point. You get prestige points for actual wins in games and matches. Prestige points are what really matter. The other points are for tie breaking. Most points at the end wins. Maybe a single elimination playoff for the highest scorers.
Comments
WOTC axed it because the cards were too expensive to manufacture. A higher price point to make up for that might be more feasible for a LCG than a CCG but I don't have the information do any more than speculate.
BEHOLD!
I recall posting links to various MayDay Games video tutorials on how to shuffle with sleeved cards.
If people don't like sleeves, just don't play games where people have their cards sleeved. =P
Sleeving cards prevents them from being shuffled using the riffle shuffle and forces the use of these alternative techniques which are inefficient at best and at worst untrustworthy. I find these improper shuffles more offensive than the threat of possibly marked cards.
Also, if someone is known to have practiced sleight of hand or card tricks I don't like them shuffling using any method.
Riffle shuffle suspect?
Spot the difference!
The deck construction limitations really give me a similar feel to character burning in BW more than the feel of making a M:TG deck. There are so many limitations, and still so few cards, that you really can't go crazy. Once you choose a faction, so many cards are already mandatory you can't escape them, especially for the corporation that has to include agendas.
That said, ever since I learned just those two basic techniques, I've become incredibly suspicious of anyone who does an overhand shuffle.
Edit - Whups, next page. still, you know what I'm talking about.
I then conducted the following test...
"Take a standard deck without the jokers. Divide it into suits with two suits in ascending order from ace to king, and the other two suits in reverse. (Many decks already come ordered this way when new.) Shuffle to your satisfaction. Then go through the deck trying to pull out each suit in the order ace, two, three ... When you reach the top of the deck, start over. How many passes did it take to pull out each suit?"
I gave the deck 7 riffle shuffles that I'd give any deck of cards at my normal speed, not making any special effort to make perfect cuts or give any extra time/effort to the shuffles themselves.
It took me 8 passes to sort the deck as described above. For reference, a "perfect" score is 1 and from the base state it requires 13. Slightly above the mean, but enough to call it "normal". Meaning I'm not chunking parts of the deck and such.
I then sleeved up the deck and arranged it as above. I then gave it 7 wedge shuffles, which is how I (and most TCG players I've seen) shuffle my sleeved cards. This also took 8 passes to sort it back out.
I know this is a sample size of one but it's difficult to mathematically simulate how sleeved cards shuffle versus unsleeved ones. What I take away from this quick science experiment is that I can shuffle just as effectively sleeved as I can unsleeved from a pure randomness standpoint. I usually throw in a mix of shuffling methods to really spice it up.
Sleeves are as evil as the haters would have you believe, kids!
It's also simply the most comfortable shuffle. Even when I have shuffled sleeved cards using other methods, it is always clumsy. Cards be falling all over the place.
What I CANNOT unlearn in a silly mechanic I learned to shuffle Magic card so they stayed with their backs pointing in the same direction.
http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2013/1/netrunner_and_vulnerability
Summary: You play swiss. Against each opponent you play each side once. NFL coin toss to see which one first. There is a time limit for the two games. There are two kinds of points. You get one kind of point for every agenda point. You get prestige points for actual wins in games and matches. Prestige points are what really matter. The other points are for tie breaking. Most points at the end wins. Maybe a single elimination playoff for the highest scorers.