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GeekNights Thursday - GeekNights in Australia part 1

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  • A lot of the experiences talked about in this episode I had the inverse of while in the States. I forgot to tip after the first meal I ate, and didn't realise until I was out the door and most of the way down the street. I went back in, found my waitress and apologised. I experienced a lot of food shock too.
    My first day in California I spent far too long standing at crosswalks because I wasn't sure if I could go because there was no buzzing noise (I blame jetlag).

    Philip Island is just the coolest place, and I'm glad you enjoyed the Immigration Museum.
    What do you call someone from Melbourne? I like Melburner.
    Melburnian.
    I always say Melbournite myself, but I haven't lived there in years so I could be behind in my slang.
    Footy doesn't always mean Aussie Rules, it is also used for Rugby League. The greatest game of all.
    Yep. It means pretty much only Aussie Rules in Victoria, especially Melbourne, however, because that's the state with the largest viewership and fan base of Aussie Rules.
    I grew up playing and watching Rugby (NRL), and it was always just called footy in my house. Then again, my parents HATE AFL, so that could just be a weird in-family thing. Currently I live in Adelaide and the amount of AFL love was so confusing when I first moved here.




  • edited August 2013
    And yet we had to wear wristbands at PAX to prove our age to play tabletop games.

    Every attempt to restrict games or other media based on age like that in the US has been overturned by courts almost without consideration. ;^)
    OOOHHH - You mean free speech for not-people, like companies and the like. Not free speech for people. No, we don't really have that much in the way of free speech for corporations here, barring the media. In fact, corporations lack a lot of the rights of individual citizens, because my country doesn't believe that corporations are people.

    Unless you really want to talk about not being able to broadcast certain things to an Audience, in which case I should point out that we considered basing our laws on another nation's Obscenity laws, but they were judged to be far too restrictive. Three guesses as to which nation had those obscenity laws, and the first two don't count. But I guess they're not all bad, since they spawned Carlin's famous "seven dirty words" bit.

    But if you want to talk about how important rights are, are you comfortable living in a nation that has those rights, and not only blatantly ignores them when they please, but also denies them to people of other nations, including allies? Australia's not perfect, but it's a bit bullshit acting like the US is any better on such issues. I'll admit, the US is good, and there's things in the US we could do with adopting and vice versa - but no point pretending the US is better. We stop boats, you build border fences. We censor video games, the US tries to censor the entire internet.

    Either way, it's not the most common practice here. Some conventions will, some won't, some mark it on the badge, some don't allow 18+ content, etc, etc. Most events just check IDs for 18+ events only, PAX was the stand-out on that one. And really, it was the smart move with the wristbands - saves a lot of time and hassle, rather than checking IDs.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • RymRym
    edited August 2013
    But the free speech stuff doesn't get ignored here. Courts routinely overturn laws that restrict "obscene" things citing the first amendment here. Every law that's ever been passed to restrict video game purchases by minors has been overturned, as has almost every law restricting pornography, hate speech, and other various assorted bits of vileness. Even our movie ratings are voluntary and have no legal force.

    Truth is defense against defamation and slander here (much better than, say, Britain). The FCC's powers only extend to a narrow band of increasingly disused broadcast media, while all other forms of publication are completely and totally open to anything but actual, real child pornography/exploitation. There is very little in the way of speech that our government has the ability to restrict without bringing a heap of judicial intervention down.

    Games are art. It doesn't matter if a corporation "owns" that art or an individual person does. The art is protected no matter who made it and no matter why they did so.

    As for checking IDs, we don't have to do that in the US except for what basically amounts to pornography or extreme violence, and even then the courts are often on our side. At ConnectiCon, no one has to prove they're 15 or 18 to play PC games or go into tabletop. A nine-year-old can wander in if they want. And any game, no matter the subject matter, can be made and published free of any fear from the courts or legal system.

    We suck at a lot of things as a political entity - don't get me wrong - but our internal free speech is top notch. The courts basically always back us up.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • edited August 2013
    I agree that the U.S. does a good job with free speech, but that's pretty much the only civil right where the U.S. does a good job. While I can understand valuing free speech well above any and all other rights, I don't share that perspective.


    That being said, I don't feel like the political or legal situation is enough of a factor to bother me much in most of the countries I would live in. Given the choice I'd probably live in the U.S., mostly because of the availability of technology and the availability of geeks/geekeries.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • Huh. I have never even thought that restricting minor's access to violent or pornographic media would be a issue of free speech. And I still don't. It's just a thing for protecting kids. Sure it also restricts the freedoms of the kid, but that's pretty much what laws and regulations are restrictions to create protection. Kids are restricted and thus protected little more than adults and I'm totally cool with that.
  • edited August 2013
    Games are art. It doesn't matter if a corporation "owns" that art or an individual person does. The art is protected no matter who made it and no matter why they did so.
    Disagree. SOME games are art, just as not every half-hearted scribbling or overwrought bit of teenage poetry is art. However, lacking an objective line in the sand with which to say this is and this is not(and I'd rather we didn't have one), I feel that all games should share equal protections as any other more established artistic medium.

    We're working to change the thing about ratings. It isn't ever going to be perfect, but we're working on it. We've made some big steps, the goal comes ever closer. Hey, we're a young nation, we're still figuring it out. Y'all Methuselahs gotta be patient.
    As for checking IDs, we don't have to do that in the US except for what basically amounts to pornography or extreme violence, and even then the courts are often on our side. At ConnectiCon, no one has to prove they're 15 or 18 to play PC games or go into tabletop. A nine-year-old can wander in if they want. And any game, no matter the subject matter, can be made and published free of any fear from the courts or legal system.
    That's actually a legal difference. Here, if you've an activity that includes the possibility one might see content of a certain rating, that activity is considered to be restricted to people able to see things in the highest rating of content at that time. It essentially becomes the same rough rules as a bar when you're showing 18+ content, though without the liquor license. It's often a bit of a nod-and-wink system, and not very well enforced - but big events like PAX, it's less trouble to enforce the rules than risk the MASSIVE fines.

    Strictly, however, you shouldn't have to check your IDs or any of that to get into tabletop - the only restricted rating is R18+. Everything else is open season. I can think of maybe three places where you would have to check ID during the show. And it's really likely only two, since I'm sure at least one of those is an insurance issue.
    We suck at a lot of things as a political entity - don't get me wrong - but our internal free speech is top notch. The courts basically always back us up.
    As do ours for the free speech of citizens - as opposed to corporations, since visitors enjoy the same protections, just as in the US. Corporations have different rules. But I'm not so sure about being top-notch. You still have plenty of common-law exceptions to free speech, with which the courts have a record of backing up the exception, rather than free speech - For example, terrorist threats, Making false statements, spreading false information, speaking of anything deemed to be related to national security.

    Really, the functional difference in day to day life is effectively zero. I understand an objection on the principle of the thing, but even there, the differences are not great.

    On the whole, though, neither the US or Australia are doing too bad in the "Being free" stakes.(PDF)

    Edit - Also, while I might sound like I've been harsh on the US here, I'm really not. I like the US almost as much as I like Australia or England, where I've lived instead of visited, and a list I mean to change in future.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • Disagree. SOME games are art, just as not every half-hearted scribbling or overwrought bit of teenage poetry is art. However, lacking an objective line in the sand with which to say this is and this is not(and I'd rather we didn't have one), I feel that all games should share equal protections as any other more established artistic medium.
    DISAGREE. Everything is art. The sounds that are made by my typing right now are music. If I rub some ink on a scrap of paper on my desk, that's art. If I take a photo of the floor at a really bad exposure, that's art.

    None of those are quality art. They aren't fine art. They aren't high art. They aren't particularly meaningful or worthwhile art. Regardless, they are forms of human expression. Their creation or dissemination should not be restricted or limited in any way shape or form.

    Just because your art is shitty doesn't make it not art or not qualify as speech. Your examples of half-hearted scribblings and teenage poetry aren't even remotely close to the line of not being art.
  • edited August 2013
    Fair enough. And still, that difference of opinion doesn't make a functional difference, considering the end result of protecting them equally as art considering we lack an objective definition of art is the same - I don't think being art or not should make a difference to it being protected in the same way.
    Post edited by Churba on
  • edited August 2013
    I don't think your typing sounds are art unless you intend them to be, or choose to present them as such after the fact. In my view, a component of intent must usually be present in order for something to be art - otherwise why wouldn't natural phenomena be art in and of themselves?

    Ultimately, though, as Churba said, whether or not something is art shouldn't really be relevant from a legal perspective.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • Ultimately, though, as Churba said, whether or not something is art shouldn't really be relevant from a legal perspective.
    It's really just a spot of my pragmatism showing through. We can argue philosophy all day about what is and is not art, or we can do our best to get shit done to protect it all, irrelevant of that, and figure out the philosophical details later.

  • As for checking IDs, we don't have to do that in the US except for what basically amounts to pornography or extreme violence, and even then the courts are often on our side.
    Bullshit. Almost every time I go into a bar or buy a drink in the USA I have to show my passport. How many times have I EVER had to show my ID in ANY other country to prove my age for ANY reason? Not once.
  • edited August 2013
    I do understand the intent behind freedom of speech in the US but as stated above it seems to be ignored by the Government.

    A recent example of this is the Caleb Clemmons case, the psychology major who posted - "hello. my name is irenigg and i plan on shooting up georgia southern. pass this around to see the affect it has. to see if i get arrested." Sure enough the kid gets charged and arrested within a few hours for "making terroristic threats via computer," and news about this isn't released for a month. http://goo.gl/KykbnW

    Yet it is fine to express your freedom of speech in associating with with Ku Klux Klan or the Westborough Baptist Church.

    Also, how often are the New Yorkers on the board stopped and frisked by the police? Sounds like a police state, only learned that this was possible in New York recently.

    As for the ID carding thing, I haven't been carded as much as I was at PAX in an entire year. The wristbands I have needed in some concerts that were all ages but had an area for serving and selling alcoholic drinks.

    Yes it did get annoying when an enforcer would ask for my wrist band every time I went to the PC freeplay area (yet never got stopped to get into console + tabletop). However I am hardly ever carded unless I am travelling in a group with younger looking people or if I'm going to a club where they photograph and scan your license so that if you break the law they can track you down.

    I agree with Scott and Rym though that video games are considered as art. The denial of an R18+ standard is just stupid politicians looking for votes from a generation that makes up a large portion of the Australian population's demographic - old people.

    I don't think you can keep arguing that one country is better than the other as it then just boils down to jingoism. However a discussion on progression and how to improve may be more coherent or whether change is even possible.
    Post edited by sK0pe on
  • Listening to this episode get a real feel about what an odd land the States is when they are talking about how things that are the norm in the rest of the English speaking world/Europe.

    When I was in New York I went to Ellis Island even though my family has no connection (to my knowledge) with the United States. Was one of the highlights of my time in the States, the free guided tour was great and I prefered it over Liberty Island.

  • As for checking IDs, we don't have to do that in the US except for what basically amounts to pornography or extreme violence, and even then the courts are often on our side.
    Bullshit. Almost every time I go into a bar or buy a drink in the USA I have to show my passport. How many times have I EVER had to show my ID in ANY other country to prove my age for ANY reason? Not once.
    Drinking isn't speech.

  • As for checking IDs, we don't have to do that in the US except for what basically amounts to pornography or extreme violence, and even then the courts are often on our side.
    Bullshit. Almost every time I go into a bar or buy a drink in the USA I have to show my passport. How many times have I EVER had to show my ID in ANY other country to prove my age for ANY reason? Not once.
    If you'd come to PAX Aus, you would have had to show your ID to get a wristband to go into almost any part of the con.

    ID checks in the US are, in almost all circumstances, only for alcohol (and the purchase of cigarettes) and venues that serve alcohol because of the alcohol. (And to hear you off, I do think our drinking age is too high ;^) ).

    No one will EVER ask for your ID before selling you a videogame or movie in a normal retail store. Movie theaters usually do for R-rated movies, but are not obligated to and there are plenty which don't. That's private enterprise self-enforcing a made-up rule: the government doesn't care.
  • edited August 2013

    As for checking IDs, we don't have to do that in the US except for what basically amounts to pornography or extreme violence, and even then the courts are often on our side.
    Bullshit. Almost every time I go into a bar or buy a drink in the USA I have to show my passport. How many times have I EVER had to show my ID in ANY other country to prove my age for ANY reason? Not once.
    Drinking isn't speech.
    And yet even for speech I've never had my ID checked for age related anything ever, at least since I looked even remotely adult. Except in the USA for alcohol.
    Post edited by Luke Burrage on
  • Listening to this episode get a real feel about what an odd land the States is when they are talking about how things that are the norm in the rest of the English speaking world/Europe.
    Well, we didn't quite finish the show yet and have a couple more hours of Aussie content.

    Some negatives we didn't discuss: ;^)

    1. Trams are nice, but waaaaay less useful than real subway and useless at night

    2. Stumble drunks literally bump into us on every street at night

    3. Clubs can get away with having racial barriers to entry outside

    4. Minimum wage + low drinking age = (anecdotally) stupid kids getting rip roaring drunk in hotel parties (we have a story here).

    5. Speed limits are ludicrously low on the freeways

    6. People bike in Melbourne on the sidewalk and mostly seem to not know how to use bicycles.

    7. There is no good orange juice.

    8. Good beer was hard to find.

    9. Surcharges for using credit cards

    10. Prepaying for hotels at check-in with cash.

    11. No one we talked to in Australia knew who anyone on their money was. Not even just names. Nothing.



    I do envy having a real healthcare/welfare system though. ;^)

  • 5. Speed limits are ludicrously low on the freeways
    Yup
    7. There is no good orange juice.
    You were here in winter. My personal favourite plain OJ is Nippys (it's mostly a SA only brand), and I like Charlie's juices for weird mixes.
    9. Surcharges for using credit cards
    This is uncommon. Unless you were using American Express or Diners Club cards.
    11. No one we talked to in Australia knew who anyone on their money was. Not even just names. Nothing.
    Guilty. I can tell you the animals on the coins though....
  • Hey at least they don't have hockey players on their currency. I'm looking at you Canada with your fake money.
  • When I went to Japan, I was genuinely impressed with all of the sidewalk and street crossing features for assisting the blind. Sounds like they are the norm most places, and the US is just behind.
  • edited August 2013
    6. People bike in Melbourne on the sidewalk and mostly seem to not know how to use bicycles.
    I don't know about Melbourne, but where I live, that's to avoid being run over.
    Post edited by Pegu on
  • edited August 2013
    And I must say, I'd be a little nervy about living in a country with such an explicitly codified set of rights for it's citizens, which the Government ignores when it pleases them.
    That's where the Ninth Amendment comes in:
    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
    Of course, there's little that can be done when the government chooses to ignore stuff, sadly. The best you can do is go about some crazy long judicial process and hope the judges get it right.
    And banking. I know people who still get actual, physical paycheques from their jobs. and I know people who have and regularly use cheques for stuff. Transfers cost money and are slow as balls(I'm told), when I can transfer money either instantly, or within 24 hours, depending on the bank. And the fees you guys pay, goddamn. Even the worst Australian bank is, to the best of my knowledge, about 10 times better than the majority of American banks.
    Can't say I know enough about Australian banking to comment about it it, but I do agree somewhat with you on American banking.

    I still have a checkbook (using the American spelling here, just cause :P ), but I write maybe one check a month with it. Every once in a while I may write a couple more, but the number of checks I write in any given month has always been in the single digits. Part of it is that some businesses don't accept credit cards for various reasons and I don't like carrying large amounts of cash on me. Of course, if there was a better transfer system where I can just say, "Transfer $X to So-and-So," without paying any fees I'd use it in a heartbeat. Sadly, checks are pretty much the only fee-free way (for the payer and payee, minus the usually trivial cost of the checks themselves) to transfer money without using cash.

    As far as physical paychecks, if you work for a decently sized company, you usually get direct deposits to your bank account. However, I'm of the impression that smaller companies can't always do so, again due to ridiculous fees. My wife used to work for a company that would only do direct deposit if the account was held by the same bank as the company's account. Then, there are some companies who are forgoing checks and direct deposit and going with high-fee prepaid debit cards, but that's yet another issue that's separate from banking (to an extent -- much of the time banks entice businesses to use these prepaid debit cards via various forms of kickbacks and discounts).
    But if you want to talk about how important rights are, are you comfortable living in a nation that has those rights, and not only blatantly ignores them when they please, but also denies them to people of other nations, including allies?
    Are you talking about denying those rights to people within the US's borders? Pardon me for not being up on examples of this happening, but it's certainly not legal (then again, when has that stopped the US government before?). The Supreme Court ruled back in the 1800's that the Bill of Rights applies to everyone within US borders, irregardless of citizenship/residency/etc. status.

    Post edited by Dragonmaster Lou on
  • RymRym
    edited August 2013
    7. There is no good orange juice.
    You were here in winter. My personal favourite plain OJ is Nippys (it's mostly a SA only brand), and I like Charlie's juices for weird mixes.
    In the US, good mass-market orange juice is 100% the same year round. Granted, this is a symptom of excess to a degree, but it's pleasant for the individual. Fresh squeezed orange juice is also available basically everywhere at all times of the year.
    9. Surcharges for using credit cards
    This is uncommon. Unless you were using American Express or Diners Club cards.
    Nope. Visa. Every hotel and half the restaurants had a surcharge for using Visa.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • 3. Clubs can get away with having racial barriers to entry outside
    ...elaborate?

  • edited August 2013
    Fresh squeezed orange juice is also available basically everywhere at all times of the year.
    That's only true in cities. The point about pretty good mass-market orange juice being constantly available is true and pretty sweet, though. It's primarily thanks to Florida and California.
    Post edited by Linkigi(Link-ee-jee) on
  • 3. Clubs can get away with having racial barriers to entry outside
    ...elaborate?
    "No Asians allowed."

    That, or obviously only letting white people in from the line.

    Doesn't appear to be super common, but is definitely no unheard of.

  • 7. There is no good orange juice.
    You were here in winter. My personal favourite plain OJ is Nippys (it's mostly a SA only brand), and I like Charlie's juices for weird mixes.
    In the US, good mass-market orange juice is 100% the same year round. Granted, this is a symptom of excess to a degree, but it's pleasant for the individual. Fresh squeezed orange juice is also available basically everywhere at all times of the year.
    My understanding is that most things are made fresher here, but oranges taste different/more bitter in winter. I have not actually looked into this, so it coud be a fallacy I picked up somewhere along the way. It's also possible that you're used to American varieties of oranges, so ours didn't taste 'right' to you? So what I consider to be good OJ you'd consider rubbish and vice a versa.
    9. Surcharges for using credit cards
    This is uncommon. Unless you were using American Express or Diners Club cards.
    Nope. Visa. Every hotel and half the restaurants had a surcharge for using Visa.
    Bizarre. I can't think of a single circumstance in recent memory where I've had a surcharge for using my visa, and I eat out in restaurants a lot. I don't stay in hotels often, and normally I don't have to pay for those, so I'm not sure what's up there.
  • To be fair, you're starting to see credit card surcharges here in the US too. I see it quite a bit at gas stations where they advertise two separate prices: one for cash and one for credit (usually about $0.05-$0.10 more per gallon for credit).
  • To be fair, you're starting to see credit card surcharges here in the US too. I see it quite a bit at gas stations where they advertise two separate prices: one for cash and one for credit (usually about $0.05-$0.10 more per gallon for credit).
    I haven't seen that since the 90s except in really backwater towns, and I've never seen it since I moved to New York State.

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